Hippocrates all of them.... esp. Obama

[HA25]

I get it now, you are smarter than everyone else.

I never once said that, and I go out of my way as a moderator now not to personally attack anyone. Reading over some of your recent posts (one to me) you could learn a to do a bit of that yourself.

 

[LJ45]

LJ45,

I remember when you were upset that our most recent President took a 747 to Crawford TX for his personal vacations..... or maybe not... because you didnt seem to care, I hope you cared about that being on your " dime " too..... you did right?

If its wasting money, its wasting money.... doesnt matter who does it right?

President Bush can do it for fun, so can this President.

Humorus try though...

for the record, I think Presidents of BOTH current parties can use the planes for stuff like this. Like em' or not.

The difference is, our past president didn't attack our industry and then use it in a hypocritical way. Hence what I said in my post.
If he wouldn't have opened his mouth and attacked aviation, places like Las Vegas I wouldn't have called him a hypocrite. It has nothing to do with Demo vs Rep, it's about leadership not creating sounds bites for the media, or for the far wing of ones party.

 

[LJ45]

I never once said that, and I go out of my way as a moderator now not to personally attack anyone. Reading over some of your recent posts (one to me) you could learn a to do a bit of that yourself.

I take back my personal attack and apologize, since that is not my normal style.

I only meant to attack your political points you are trying to make and not you as a person.

 

[LJ45]

FYI...

Several years ago, I remember running into John McCain on the road in a Falcon 50 owned by one of the large national home improvement stores (blue). I saw him in that plane right after he had bashed corporate aviation, I never forgot that.

 

[HA25]

I take back my personal attack and apologize, since that is not my normal style.

I only meant to attack your political points you are trying to make and not you as a person.

And I appreciate that... you know these senators who are on opposite sides of issues still manage to get along with each other, and the main reason is they must face each other. On here, we're all hiding behind annonymonus handles and that makes it too easy to behave in a way that you would never normally behave. It's why I am trying to moderate these forums by asking people to modify their behavior rather than issue 10 day bans and other harsh action

Heated debate is a good thing though, keep it up please.

 

[mzaharis]

And I appreciate that... you know these senators who are on opposite sides of issues still manage to get along with each other, and the main reason is they must face each other.

They're not senators, but I was always pleased to hear that, on the McLaughlin Group, Pat Buchanan and Eleanor Clift, despite being political polar opposites, are cordial to each other personally, and Pat helped Elanor with the loss of her husband.

 

[HA25]

They're not senators, but I was always pleased to hear that, on the McLaughlin Group, Pat Buchanan and Eleanor Clift, despite being political polar opposites, are cordial to each other personally, and Pat helped Elanor with the loss of her husband.

Yeah, a good example. BTW, I love Pat Buchanan, I was a huge supporter of his when he ran for president.. Hate Eleanor's rabid feminism, but I do agree with her a on a lot of other things.

 

[stupidpilot]

Hippocrates? Isn't he the guy who developed the Hippocratic Oath?

 

[svcta]

This is why in Europe, they work so they can live.. and we here, live so we can work! The Chinese are giving us a run for our money though, and this is why our productivity has gone up far more than our income since the mid 1970's.. Welcome to the free market, unfettered.

But if you prefer to live in the land of Walmart and McDonnalds over the land of Mom and Pop stores and restaurants, you are on the right track.. we're living the dream here.

You may be right about this part, but look at how we arrived at this point. The 10s of millions that you say live on the verge of poverty still probably in the majority have cell phones, some form of pay television, credit issued by someone upon which they're enjoying accoutrement that are categorically beyond their means, etc., etc. American have dug themselves in to a hole inside of which they must live to work. It's sort of a tangent but still relevant: Most americans are more concerned with Paris Hilton and feeling offended because they "deserve" to have better lifestyles, too.

Damn, even Magic Johnson is peddling rented furniture for Rent-a-Center or someone making the statement about what your family "deserves". And if you have to rent new furniture, or 22" wheels for your car, or sink down in the pit of easy credit rip-offs then you're only perpetuating your own servitude to "stuff".

In my travels in EU I made notice early on that the average citizen gets by just fine with older things, broadcast TV, and a generally more modest way of living. And as you pointed out, they're happier for it.

It's keeping up with the Joneses thats causing the problems you laid out, not evil CEOs, banks, TARP, GM. The government has no business telling us how to run our companies any more than it does how to live our lives.

 

[jet2work]

well rather than site web links, I have actually lived in Germany for 4 years and travelled throughout Europe. They have a higher (average) standard of living, and more importantly their countries are generally cleaner and better kept. Just take a drive thru the US and drive to the small towns and cities that have been ravaged by the demise of industry in our country.. the Walmartization of America.. Then, drive from the coast of France to Prague... you'd have to be brain dead not to notice the start difference.

We have a 3rd world country living with in the US.. you just don't see that in the EU.

On top of all this, the average EU worker gets 30 days of vacation each year or more.. some 60... and works under 40 hours a week.. has far less to worry about in his retirement years, and gets first class medical care no matter what his level of income. Those with more of course have access to private medicine which even further grants them an advantage.

With all due respect, I was stationed in Germany for 3 1/2 years and apparently you view things differently than I did.

In Europe almost NO ONE has a house the size of mine or owns 4 cars and an airplane. Yet in the US I would consider myself middle class.

In Europe (Germany) you typically have multiple generations living under the same roof. Oma and Opa upstairs Mom and Pop in the middle and kids on the bottom. There may be one vehicle for the entire family and not all of them can ride in it at the same time.

Europe is generally cleaner? Really? Been to Paris? Some parts of Europe are cleaner because they have laws that mandate that YOU sweep the sidewalks, not because some gov't worker comes by and does it.

Europe is a great place if your life revolves around soccer and pub culture. If you would rather live in an apartment than own a home you'll love Europe. Sure their are plenty of historic buildings and cemetaries and alot of bars.

Europe has no poverty? Really? What about the riots in Paris a few years ago? I would say that nearly half the population of Germany and France lives in conditions that I would not want for myself. When I lived in Germany there were plenty of Turks living there in poverty. Look a little further to the East to find the poverty in Europe. Oh it's there, trust me. Poverty is a relative thing, and when you are all at a lower level the bottom is not that far from from the top.

As for socialized medicine, I have had a small taste of it through the VA. Thanks but no thanks. Sure our system has it's flaws, but putting the same people who run the DMV in charge of it is only going to make it worse. The fact that a private system exists is proof that socialized medicine is lacking.

Europeans get 30 days of vacation a year. Well they got us beat there. They also pay alot more in taxes and envy our freedom much more than they like to let on. How many Europeans do you know that have permanently immigrated to the United States? How many Americans do you know that have emmigrated to Europe? It just doesn't happen very frequently.

Obviously you have an issue with Wal Mart. When I lived in Germany the stores were closed on Saturdays (except Langsamstag) and Sundays as mandated by the government. Stores (even large ones) were required to close at lunchtime, so that mom and pop shops could compete with them. 24 hour gas stations or grocery stores forget about it. I for one am appreciative of WalMart for keeping everyone else out there competitive.

This country is great for what it is. Are there things we can take from Europe to improve our lifestyle here? Absolutely. But let Europe be Europe and let the US be the US. One great thing about being an American is that you are free to leave at any time.

You have romanticized your memories of Europe and forgotten all the PITA things about living over there. For example, your trip from the coast of France to Prague would not have even been possible 20 years ago. Today it would cost you a fortune in gas, and you would have to stop and show your passport 3 times. The Autobahn is now ruined with all the trucks from eastern Europe on it. It's a great place to vacation, but you wouldn't want to live there.

 

[stupidpilot]

We have our flaws, and Europe has theirs. I enjoy Europe, the people, the food and the sights. However I think it would be exponentially harder in Europe to live the lifestyle I enjoy here. It is much more difficult to get ahead. I prefer our flaws to theirs.

Your post was spot on Jet2work!

 

[HA25]

Jet2work, nice post but frankly I just don't see it the way you do.. and a lot of what you itemize actually (in my eyes) favors the EU. Sorry, but I think they're a more "Evolved" society, they trust government, and for the most part it works well for them. American's have a different history, more of a wild west, manifest destiny "do it yourself" which is fine for some... but for me it has (in modern times) lead to the 70 hour work week, the so called "Protestant work ethic" which is an unfair dig against protestants, but generally means that we American's live to work, while the Europeans work to live.. Which is my idea of a life.

 

[KigAir]

It is obvious that the POTUS cannot just take his hybrid down to the local restaurant.

Why not? If the NSA can supply him with a super secure BlackBerry, certainly someone can do the same with a car. Anybody remember when he decided to grab a hotdog for lunch after he was elected?

 

[Fly91]

I'm just saying that yes it is expensive and yes it is unwarranted but he cannot stay holed up in the house all the time.He has to travel and relax. The job is just too stressful to have no down time. At least he took the Gulfstream. Isn't that a good faith gesture? Watching Discovery channel about Airforce One, Bush took the 747 to NY.
So we can all get an idea of what is acceptable over the next 4 years please give us an idea of what is and is not acceptable for the president to do while in office in terms of travel and vacation. I would like to hear your opinion. One trip a year? Two? None? What would you say it is ok?

That piece of dirt Obama and his nasty wife made $2.7 million last year. Their own income from other things plus his salary. In these times of economic hell don't you think it would have been nice if he paid for his damn night out?

Obama has an annual personal travel expense account of $50,000, all presidents get that. He used it all up and then some that night.

Look, it wouldn't be as bad if he didn't read off his teleprompter how everyone has to tighten their belts, no more company trips on private jets to Vegas, no more wild spending.

He's a dirtbag hippo. That jerkoff couldn't go on a date in Washington somewhere.

 

[Fly91]

Bottom line about this date night.

It was in poor taste when millions are out of work and millions are losing their homes, not to mention quite a few suicides over this economy.

If Obama wanted to make some points with people and set one hell of a good example as president, he would have gone out for dinner and a show in Washington. But Obama has fulfilled the only thing he was ever truly interested in, becoming the first black president. His job is done. Well, actually he's the second black president, John Hanson was the first. But that fact was lost in our history.

 

[Northern Lights]

Now it looks like Michelle and the kids are winging off to Paris to meet the Prez after his mid-east trip. Supposedly they are doing something to commemorate the 65th anniversary of landing at Normandy.

 

[JFReservist]

Now it looks like Michelle and the kids are winging off to Paris to meet the Prez after his mid-east trip. Supposedly they are doing something to commemorate the 65th anniversary of landing at Normandy.

Normandy?!?!? Sale at Zara's, 15-30% off if not from the EU (or so the FA's told me).

 

[JFReservist]

Jet2work, nice post but frankly I just don't see it the way you do.. and a lot of what you itemize actually (in my eyes) favors the EU. Sorry, but I think they're a more "Evolved" society, they trust government, and for the most part it works well for them. American's have a different history, more of a wild west, manifest destiny "do it yourself" which is fine for some... but for me it has (in modern times) lead to the 70 hour work week, the so called "Protestant work ethic" which is an unfair dig against protestants, but generally means that we American's live to work, while the Europeans work to live.. Which is my idea of a life.

I would much rather work for myself, maintain my family and (limited) hard earned wealth and not have to be told to fund someone's lifestyle.

Somehow, relaxing after hard work feels better than just relaxing for the sake of a lifestyle choice. But that's me. I'd like to say we can respectfully disagree, but your idea of a bit of socialism being the answer are lightening my wallet... you and yours are stealing from my family. If you need help in a pinch, that's what charity is for. If you are pinching me to get out of working hard for what you want, that's what a Kimber is for.

Cheers...

 

[HA25]

I would much rather work for myself, maintain my family and (limited) hard earned wealth and not have to be told to fund someone's lifestyle.

Somehow, relaxing after hard work feels better than just relaxing for the sake of a lifestyle choice. But that's me. I'd like to say we can respectfully disagree, but your idea of a bit of socialism being the answer are lightening my wallet... you and yours are stealing from my family. If you need help in a pinch, that's what charity is for. If you are pinching me to get out of working hard for what you want, that's what a Kimber is for.

Cheers...

I think the whole argument went over your head.. it's not about lazy.. Would you deny that Germany builds the best cars? or France, some of the best luxury goods? They're able to make some of the finest things in the world, grow huge corporations and yet keep their workweek to 35-37 hours and provide a complete cradle to grave safety net for their entire population.

But that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[fob727]

Don't worry, FMS. Our "annointed one" is going to take care of that.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Now it looks like Michelle and the kids are winging off to Paris to meet the Prez after his mid-east trip. Supposedly they are doing something to commemorate the 65th anniversary of landing at Normandy.

That's right, Girls are out of school, so they get to travel the world on military jets, not corporate jets. I'm looking forward to seeing them get on and off of AF1 throughout the summer in countries they've not yet visited. Setting a great example for other kids to look up to. Money well spent. Get used to it.

 

[JFReservist]

I think the whole argument went over your head..

You're right, I'm not 'evolved' enough to bandy philosophies with someone of your intellectual prowess.

it's not about lazy..

Don't believe I mentioned that.

Would you deny that Germany builds the best cars?

They don't make a very good truck...

or France, some of the best luxury goods?

and the best caviar in the world came from outside of a Gulag back in the day...

They're able to make some of the finest things in the world, grow huge corporations and yet keep their workweek to 35-37 hours and provide a complete cradle to grave safety net for their entire population.

And their governments have tacitly endorsed "boss-napping" as an acceptable labor policy.

Funny, we American's make some of the finest things in the world, but our businesses are hampered by the obstructionist actions of our government.

But that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I love visiting Europe, and I think it's beautiful. French cuisine is wonderful, and as a good looking fat kid, I know good food. The wine is okay, but I prefer a shiraz grenache or a malbec. It really is a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there. I don't like their policies, and I sure as he!! don't want to enact the cradle to grave "safety net" here. What you see as a safety net, I see as some statist bureaucrat telling me what I can and can't do because I have ceded them power to my right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Those are my inalienable rights... not given to me by the government, but by the God of nature (or apes and crawfish if you beleive in that stuff, which you have the right to).

Our system of government is decidedly different than that of any other, and through our individual pursuit of life, liberty and happiness we have realized the greatest advancement of any civilization ever both socially and technologically in such a limited time-frame. Have we had some growing pains along the way, you bet your a$$. But we have also fought to bring liberty and self determination to many people, including those in Europe.

If you don't like our little system over here, that is fine, but you absolutely do not have the right to take from me my inalienable rights.

Cheers.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I think the whole argument went over your head.. it's not about lazy.. Would you deny that Germany builds the best cars? or France, some of the best luxury goods? They're able to make some of the finest things in the world, grow huge corporations and yet keep their workweek to 35-37 hours and provide a complete cradle to grave safety net for their entire population.

But that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But who where they selling to? THE US. They forced their citizens to pay outrageous taxes on to subsidize goods that they exported (the largest buyer being the US) at a deflated value and when the US had economic problems, their countries collapsed. They can't sustain their style of government UNLESS there is a free market system to sell to.

 

[HA25]

They can't sustain their style of government UNLESS there is a free market system to sell to.

Just like the we do with the Chinese.

But wait.. What if we all just played by the same set of economic rules? Now there's a novel idea. Imagine the German Engineer who's got 6 weeks vacation, and a 35 hour workweek competing with an American with the same benefits, and *Gasp* a Chinese ...

 

[ksu_aviator]

Just like the we do with the Chinese.

But wait.. What if we all just played by the same set of economic rules? Now there's a novel idea. Imagine the German Engineer who's got 6 weeks vacation, and a 35 hour workweek competing with an American with the same benefits, and *Gasp* a Chinese ...

You keep looking at the stuff people give you...you don't look at the stuff they could earn.

We all play by the same economic rules. The rules are derived from the natural behaviour of man. It does not matter how many regulations you propose, or what contrived economic system you worship, everyone...every system is subject to the principals and laws of the free market.

So I ask you, what gives you the moral authority to dictate to free people how and when they work, who they hire and how much they earn?

 

[HA25]

You keep looking at the stuff people give you...you don't look at the stuff they could earn.

We all play by the same economic rules. The rules are derived from the natural behaviour of man. It does not matter how many regulations you propose, or what contrived economic system you worship, everyone...every system is subject to the principals and laws of the free market.

So I ask you, what gives you the moral authority to dictate to free people how and when they work, who they hire and how much they earn?

I've read Adam Smith, and J.M. Kaynes, and Milton Freedman. my MBA is in Finance and my BA in Economics.. I have a good understanding of what you're trying to say.. but the fact is, regulations have a MAJOR effect on economic output. The Productivity of American workers between the mid 70's and 2000 has gone up more than any other worker in the world, while his salary has stagnated, this is data that's not in dispute. The relative productivity increase to salary in the EU is far more in line. The US has a market that is regulated in favor of the firm and not the worker. The EU, is the opposite, which is to say the worker and not the firm... So if the two have to compete (The EU and US worker), the US worker will always produce more output, which benefits mainly the firms in the US... but does this really "morally" benefit the life of the worker if his salary is stalled at the same level or below the EU worker (and even after taxes and benefits, he's got less to spend?).. We've got far more credit card debt than the EU workers for a reason... you think our taxes are low, but low taxes don't do you any good if you have to pay for everything like we do, and at the same time save for your retirement.. It's not in dispute that our debt/savings rate is far out of line with the rest of the developed world, why do you that is? Truth is, the only person who wins in the US Economic model is the CEO.. This isn't free markets, this is a market that's stacked in favor of the boss... And this is why I'd like to see a bit more "Regulation".. I'd love to start with more airline regulation first!

You ask what give me any moral right? Nobody.. I don't have this right, I'm not the Dictator of the US, I'm just a voter.

Lets not bring China into this, because it would seriously complicate my argument being that they're the closest thing to what you argue for, which is a pure free market economy in favor of the firm.. 6 day work weeks, 12 hour work days, no minimum wage, no employer benefits laws, etc..

 

[ksu_aviator]

I've read Adam Smith, and J.M. Kaynes, and Milton Freedman. my MBA is in Finance and my BA in Economics.. I have a good understanding of what you're trying to say.. but the fact is, regulations have a MAJOR effect on economic output.

But not a good effect. Take banking regulations for example. Our government forced banks into loans that they knew wouldn't be repaid. So the banks hid those loans in tons of paperwork and sold them as the next great thing. It is a perfect example of how regulation creates the problems instead of solving them.

Regulations must be limited to preventing and punishing deceitful and damaging practices. Anything above and beyond that limits the economy.

The Productivity of American workers between the mid 70's and 2000 has gone up more than any other worker in the world, while his salary has stagnated, this is data that's not in dispute. The relative productivity increase to salary in the EU is far more in line.

That is a flat out lie. The only percentile that has stagnated is the bottom 20%. Gee...now...what is the bottom 20% eligible for? Could it be social programs? Why, yes it is. The remaining 80% has seen a minimum of 25% increase in household income since 1970. So, let's see...if the only group that is stagnating is the group getting financial assistance and the groups that don't get assistance are growing along with the economy...what can we conclude? The government programs are the problem...not the solution.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._States_Income_Distribution_1947-2007.svg.png

The US has a market that is regulated in favor of the firm and not the worker. The EU, is the opposite, which is to say the worker and not the firm... So if the two have to compete (The EU and US worker), the US worker will always produce more output, which benefits mainly the firms in the US... but does this really "morally" benefit the life of the worker if his salary is stalled at the same level or below the EU worker (and even after taxes and benefits, he's got less to spend?)..

No, the person that produces more, earns more. But your class warfare rhetoric is noted.

Look....no matter how you cut it, the consumer pays for everything. If you charge corporate taxes...the consumer pays. If you charge personal taxes....the consumer pays. The fact is, whether you have a socialistic system or a free market system, the end consumer is the payer.

Government is historically the most wasteful and least efficient supplier of any goods or service. Even if they don't do it for a profit, they are generally underbid by entrepreneurs. Ask Russians, Chinese or Mexicans. All of their governments failed to provide services. It wasn't until China began to deregulate that they began the growth they are seeing today. Russia was in the same boat. Mexico just needs to follow suite.

We've got far more credit card debt than the EU workers for a reason... you think our taxes are low, but low taxes don't do you any good if you have to pay for everything like we do, and at the same time save for your retirement.. It's not in dispute that our debt/savings rate is far out of line with the rest of the developed world, why do you that is? Truth is, the only person who wins in the US Economic model is the CEO.. This isn't free markets, this is a market that's stacked in favor of the boss... And this is why I'd like to see a bit more "Regulation".. I'd love to start with more airline regulation first!

That is the most convoluted argument. We have less money because we pay less in taxes? That is absolutely retarded! Show me the poor Europeans that have 2 cars with upgraded rims and speakers and a 52" HD tv? Because our "poor" have all of that, on average.

You ask what give me any moral right? Nobody.. I don't have this right, I'm not the Dictator of the US, I'm just a voter.

Dictating through voting is still dictating.

Lets not bring China into this, because it would seriously complicate my argument being that they're the closest thing to what you argue for, which is a pure free market economy in favor of the firm.. 6 day work weeks, 12 hour work days, no minimum wage, no employer benefits laws, etc..

You just can't stay away from the class envy/warfare, can you?

 

[HA25]

Class warfare and socialism are favorite attack phrases, I appreciate your use of those to quell my argument.. but that fact is, I don't run from them.. I think that, all humans being selfish beings by nature, class warfare is a fact of life.. Those who have, generally like to keep and get more.. There is only so much economic growth that can naturally occur with the resources we have, so the only way to gain wealth is to squeeze more and more productivity from the workers... this isn't class warfare, its' life.. I just happen to take a more "Christian" view of what we all need to have, vs what we all "deserve" to have, based on the gifts we were born with.. for me it's a moral argument and it's why I'm a strong supporter of labor unions.

Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/was_jesus_a_socialist_that_is.html

 

[BoilerUP]

I believe as well in giving people what they "need".

Problem is society at large is so spoiled and entitled that they think they "need" a hell of a lot more than they really do "need" in order to live.

FMS, I'm torn on your line of thinking...it is reasonable to a point, but sounds a bit too Atlas Shrugged for my self-sufficient taste.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Class warfare and socialism are favorite attack phrases, I appreciate your use of those to quell my argument.. but that fact is, I don't run from them.. I think that, all humans being selfish beings by nature, class warfare is a fact of life..

...but not a fact of government. Government is responsible for maintaining a level playing field...not an equal score.

Those who have, generally like to keep and get more.. There is only so much economic growth that can naturally occur with the resources we have, so the only way to gain wealth is to squeeze more and more productivity from the workers... this isn't class warfare, its' life..

It is b.s. You try to deflect the term class warfare, but if you call a turd by any other name, it still stinks.

I just happen to take a more "Christian" view of what we all need to have, vs what we all "deserve" to have, based on the gifts we were born with.. for me it's a moral argument and it's why I'm a strong supporter of labor unions.

The "Christian" view is to forcibly remove possessions from one group to give to another? Some how I missed the part where Jesus stole from Peter to pay Paul.

Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/was_jesus_a_socialist_that_is.html

Wow...what a poorly written article. The thesis, the conclusion and the supporting evidence don't coincide. Jesus never condoned the theft of money from the populous to give to the few. He did, however, say that each must treat the least as if they are God. That is an individual action that must be taken, not a government action that should be taken.