High oil and RJs do not mix well.....

[John Pennekamp]

Sort of, but maybe Delta is finally realizing that RJ's don't belong on routes like SLC-BHM. That route, and similar ones, are not what the RJ was intended for. I also never said get rid of the RJ's, but I am saying utilize them as they were intended.

Now THAT statement I agree with! These are the routes they should be abandoning altogether.

Delta, being the "marketing driven airline" that it is still cares more about its image than its actual profits. They used to brag (the Leo Mullin/Vicki Escarra/Michelle Burns era) about flying "from anywhere to everywhere". This is when the asinine long thin RJ routes began, but gas was cheap, so what the hell?

Well now that gas is expensive and profits are "suddenly" important, they need to transform the RJ operators back into a traditional "commuter" role of moving passengers into the hub and connecting them to the high yield transcon and Int'l mainline flights. The best way to do this (from an efficiency standpoint) is with large turboprops. The next best way is to fill large RJs. But if a market can only support a 50 seat aircraft, they need to decide to use it or abandon the market. Not upgrade it. I still see a demand for 50 seat RJs, but they will (and only should) exist in markets that can reliably fill them.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The only solution is allowing airlines to fail and/or consolidate.

The whole RJ vs. Mainline Jet fight (what a bogus argument!) is nothing more than rearraiging deck chairs on the Titantic.

The industry is going to fail. The only thing propping it up is the lessors and the banks.

But look at the subprime mess. Band-aids and temporary fixes are just that. The systemic problems of the inability of the airlines to price their product to match the market forces remains. You can burn your furniture to heat your home, but when you start ripping off the siding, well...

You have a point, but the same can be said for the entire US economy. If nothing else, the subprime scandals have proven that our entire economy is a house of cards. That's what happens when your country no longer makes anything and shifts to a consumer spending-driven retail and service based economy. Courtesy of a president and congress that ignored the workers and allowed corporations to transfer most of the manufacturing jobs overseas. The damage the Bush administration has done to our economy is only beginning to show, and it will get much worse before it gets better.

 

[wms]

The usefulness of the RJs will be just what it was in the last recession. RJs are not as cost effective as ml airplanes, but if demand drops it's more effective to fly 50 pax on a 50-seater. One of the mistakes DAL made in the past was as pax counts increased on city pairs they increased the number of RJ flights rather than shift to ml equipment.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The usefulness of the RJs will be just what it was in the last recession. RJs are not as cost effective as ml airplanes, but if demand drops it's more effective to fly 50 pax on a 50-seater. One of the mistakes DAL made in the past was as pax counts increased on city pairs they increased the number of RJ flights rather than shift to ml equipment.

Agreed. The RJs will not be going away, they will just move to a more traditional commuter role.

 

[AceCrackshot]

The utility of the RJ (to management) was primarily as a whipsaw. The RJ revolution essentially deprofessionalized the airline industry. Period.

The DL MEC was too stupid to realize that there was no functional difference between a MD88 and RJ. RJs should have been on ML senority lists from day 1. Instead, once that camel's nose was in the tent, a forklift wasn't going to get him out. But, for the DL MEC since 1978, their only strategy was trying to throw someone else under the bus. Every gain they made was temporary, and every thing they gave away (like following flying during a merger, RJs, contract flying in the US 121 world, etc.) will take years to get back, if we ever have the leverage to do so. If anyone has got an issue with General Lee, or DL pilots as a group, that should be it.

Commuter lift and mainline lift, in a perfect world, work hand-in-glove. To say that long haul is the high yield isn't always correct. For example, the pax going LGA-DEN-ASE or DEN-CLT-HXD is paying through the nose for the last leg, and is getting a screaming good deal on the first. USAir lived off its commuter lift and Shuttle operations for years. WN and other LCCs made sure that the high-density to high-density city pairs would eventually be competed down to subsistance level yields, or the case of Florida, worse.

Look at F9, they've been successful to this point, but they just staked their claim that the only new revenue streams that will be available are shortrange commuter and long range int'l.

I think they're right, for what its worth.

Its somewhat academic, at this point. The RJ created the situation where this has happened...

1997. 22 year TW 72 captains make 100k/year, decent retirement, great work rules, decent benes, good work atmosphere.

2007. 22 year AA 76 captains make 160k/year, middling retirement, middling work rules, benes middling, hostile work environment.

 

[AceCrackshot]

You have a point, but the same can be said for the entire US economy. If nothing else, the subprime scandals have proven that our entire economy is a house of cards. That's what happens when your country no longer makes anything and shifts to a consumer spending-driven retail and service based economy. Courtesy of a president and congress that ignored the workers and allowed corporations to transfer most of the manufacturing jobs overseas. The damage the Bush administration has done to our economy is only beginning to show, and it will get much worse before it gets better.

To blame Bush for this is like blaming the firemen who break the windows of out of your house while it's on fire.

He shares the blame, to be sure. But remember when deregulation started (ans. Carter.) Remember who signed NAFTA (ans. Clinton.)

The American middle class has been sold out by both political parties since the early 70s. Remember, at the top of the income pyramid, both political parties meet.

 

[John Pennekamp]

To blame Bush for this is like blaming the firemen who break the windows of out of your house while it's on fire.

He shares the blame, to be sure. But remember when deregulation started (ans. Carter.) Remember who signed NAFTA (ans. Clinton.)

The American middle class has been sold out by both political parties since the early 70s. Remember, at the top of the income pyramid, both political parties meet.

I don't disagree.

 

[General Lee]

Wow guys, I really had a ball reading all of these responses. So much HATE for me, and all I did was post an article and didn't even give an opinion. The truth hurts sometimes I guess...

One guy asked if it would be better to have 30 people on a 76 seat RJ, or 30 people on a mainline plane. How about get rid of RJs (and frequency of flights that Fred Reid wanted so badly for business people who now hate RJs) and instead of 8 flights a day with 4 mainline and 4 RJs, just have 5 flights a day with 1 RJ and 4 mainline? Tighter supply will raise fares, and the mainline planes will be more profitable. Sounds great.

Have a great one Fellas!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[rumrnr78]

To blame Bush for this is like blaming the firemen who break the windows of out of your house while it's on fire.

He shares the blame, to be sure. But remember when deregulation started (ans. Carter.) Remember who signed NAFTA (ans. Clinton.)

The American middle class has been sold out by both political parties since the early 70s. Remember, at the top of the income pyramid, both political parties meet.

Very true!

 

[IronCityBlue]

Well if the general is right, now's the perfect time to get RJ scope back, or at the very least reinstate massive restrictions. Heck, since the RJ is pretty much doomed, just tell magement its not only cost neutral, its revenue positive! They can't afford not to do it!

 

[yahooair]

love it, pilots who think they

 

[yahooair]

can give financial advice on how to run a trillion dollar industry...irony!
why don't you tell trump how to manage his biz while your at it!

 

[Jmoney]

Assumption....

Well if the general is right, now's the perfect time to get RJ scope back, or at the very least reinstate massive restrictions. Heck, since the RJ is pretty much doomed, just tell magement its not only cost neutral, its revenue positive! They can't afford not to do it!

You are making a dangerous assumption: that of the general being right......I have yet to see him be right on anything and doubt he will buck that trend.

Don't forget, his posts are not about RJs, they are not about the industry, they are all about how great he is and how everyone who is not him sucks.

WHAT A FOOL!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Wow guys, I really had a ball reading all of these responses. So much HATE for me, and all I did was post an article and didn't even give an opinion. The truth hurts sometimes I guess...

One guy asked if it would be better to have 30 people on a 76 seat RJ, or 30 people on a mainline plane. How about get rid of RJs (and frequency of flights that Fred Reid wanted so badly for business people who now hate RJs) and instead of 8 flights a day with 4 mainline and 4 RJs, just have 5 flights a day with 1 RJ and 4 mainline? Tighter supply will raise fares, and the mainline planes will be more profitable. Sounds great.

Have a great one Fellas!

Bye Bye--General Lee

More flamebait. He's right. Why do we even respond to this idiot? He's only fishing.

 

[John Pennekamp]

In other words, if we all just ignore General Lee/737 Pylt (and his next alter ego), he'll just go away. He only wants to rile us. Don't give it to him. Just don't respond to his stupid crap any more.

 

[jonjuan]

How about get rid of RJs (and frequency of flights that Fred Reid wanted so badly for business people who now hate RJs) and instead of 8 flights a day with 4 mainline and 4 RJs, just have 5 flights a day with 1 RJ and 4 mainline? Tighter supply will raise fares, and the mainline planes will be more profitable. Sounds great.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Apparently more frequency on business routes has been quite succesful for WN. However, business travelers would rather an RJ with an assigned seat and FF points with frequency(to maintain their DL Elite status so they can travel for free to Europe on vacation and upgrade often domestically than) flying on WN with no assigned seats and a limited FF program. Ask them. They will tell you that. Frequency with a 50/50 shot on an RJ is more important than a better chance of a packed 757 on a 2 hour flight, especially if they have to sit at the airport an extra 2 hours waiting for the flight.
Try it sometime, el general. "Mr business traveler, would you rather sit here in the airport for 2 more hours and wait for a middle seat on a 2-hour 757 flight or would you rather leave right now on the RJ to get you home 2-hours earlier to see your dog?"

 

[John Pennekamp]

Apparently more frequency on business routes has been quite succesful for WN. However, business travelers would rather an RJ with an assigned seat and FF points with frequency(to maintain their DL Elite status so they can travel for free to Europe on vacation and upgrade often domestically than) flying on WN with no assigned seats and a limited FF program. Ask them. They will tell you that. Frequency with a 50/50 shot on an RJ is more important than a better chance of a packed 757 on a 2 hour flight, especially if they have to sit at the airport an extra 2 hours waiting for the flight.
Try it sometime, el general. "Mr business traveler, would you rather sit here in the airport for 2 more hours and wait for a middle seat on a 2-hour 757 flight or would you rather leave right now on the RJ to get you home 2-hours earlier to see your dog?"

STOP! You're only encouraging him! No matter what you say, and no matter how logical your argument is, the General will never admit he is wrong. He will only continue his asinine drivel. The only way to win a debate with him is not to participate!

 

[AceCrackshot]

can give financial advice on how to run a trillion dollar industry...irony!
why don't you tell trump how to manage his biz while your at it!

Your point is?

 

[siucavflight]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Get out now, no jobs left in five years.

 

[AceCrackshot]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Get out now, no jobs left in five years.

The sky isn't falling, but if 75k/year, no work rules, and 10% of your take-home for benefits is your idea of career employment, then you have at it.

I refuse to compete with you.

And if you don't think cabotage is coming, well, you're living in fantasy land.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Ace, I have a question for ya. Your profile says you've been here since 2003, but up until a few days ago, I'd never seen a post by you. Now suddenly you seem to be an authority on everything. Why the sudden increase in posts?

 

[siucavflight]

The sky isn't falling, but if 75k/year, no work rules, and 10% of your take-home for benefits is your idea of career employment, then you have at it.

I refuse to compete with you.

And if you don't think cabotage is coming, well, you're living in fantasy land.

Like I said the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Get out now, find a new job, quick the sky is falling.

 

[General Lee]

STOP! You're only encouraging him! No matter what you say, and no matter how logical your argument is, the General will never admit he is wrong. He will only continue his asinine drivel. The only way to win a debate with him is not to participate!

John, tell me why I am wrong here, and also tell me why Ed Bastain should NOT park RJs during high oil?

Give me some of your thoughts on why this is a bad practice, and what should our management really do during high oil? I am so interested in your response. Giving no answer will show your ignorance on the matter. Here's your shot---what should we do?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FishandFly]

General,
Do you send your opinions up and try to change the way your company acts or do you just whine down?

It is your company that cut your pay in half, furloughed a bunch of your buddies, and diverted a good amount of your flying to the regional carriers.

To boot, it's your pilot group that put up with all of it and bent over when they agreed to fly an RJ for less than the pay at the regionals.

 

[General Lee]

General,
Do you send your opinions up and try to change the way your company acts or do you just whine down?

It is your company that cut your pay in half, furloughed a bunch of your buddies, and diverted a good amount of your flying to the regional carriers.

To boot, it's your pilot group that put up with all of it and bent over when they agreed to fly an RJ for less than the pay at the regionals.

How would you have changed that in a BK? Would you "tell" the BK judge what to do? Yes, we had two pay cuts---one to try to stave off BK, and another one in BK. What would you have done differently? If you cannot see the difference between willingly giving it up during a normal contract negotiation, and one during a BK proceeding, then I don't know what to tell you. You forget that we previously negotiated the highest pay rates yet. Scope is something that we did initially give away in the late 90s, not really knowing the consequences. During BK we had to deal---and the 76 seat allottment is actually less than the company initially wanted. Now RJs are the target during high oil, and those scope allocations we gave away are now taking care of themselves.

Also, we did have low rates for an RJ (CR9), but the only rates that are higher at a regional are your highest rates. If we ever got CR9s they would be for our most junior pilots. Our newhires are currently paid $51 an hour--a lot less than Regional Captains. We would not have any senior pilots flying the E190 or mainline CR9---if we ever got them at all. Can you see the difference? We wanted to just get them on the property, and work upwards from there, something a normal regional can NOT do. Why do any regional captains make more than our newhires? That is the way it is at any company. There will always be some discrepancy in pay between senior regional captains and our newhires or junior pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FishandFly]

How would you have changed that in a BK? Would you "tell" the BK judge what to do? Yes, we had two pay cuts---one to try to stave off BK, and another one in BK. What would you have done differently? If you cannot see the difference between willingly giving it up during a normal contract negotiation, and one during a BK proceeding, then I don't know what to tell you. You forget that we previously negotiated the highest pay rates yet. Scope is something that we did initially give away in the late 90s, not really knowing the consequences. During BK we had to deal---and the 76 seat allottment is actually less than the company initially wanted. Now RJs are the target during high oil, and those scope allocations we gave away are now taking care of themselves.

Also, we did have low rates for an RJ (CR9), but the only rates that are higher at a regional are your highest rates. If we ever got CR9s they would be for our most junior pilots. Our newhires are currently paid $51 an hour--a lot less than Regional Captains. We would not have any senior pilots flying the E190 or mainline CR9---if we ever got them at all. Can you see the difference? We wanted to just get them on the property, and work upwards from there, something a normal regional can NOT do. Why do any regional captains make more than our newhires? That is the way it is at any company. There will always be some discrepancy in pay between senior regional captains and our newhires or junior pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

Thank you for trying very hard to point out that the bad things that have happened to the delta pilot group are not the fault of the delta pilot group. Now please be a man and gulp down that it is also not the fault of the regional pilot groups. Blame it on your management or the Russians, but stop being an idiot and blaming it on us.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John, tell me why I am wrong here, and also tell me why Ed Bastain should NOT park RJs during high oil?

Give me some of your thoughts on why this is a bad practice, and what should our management really do during high oil? I am so interested in your response. Giving no answer will show your ignorance on the matter. Here's your shot---what should we do?


Bye Bye--General Lee

No. You're not worth it. Go back to the majors board and cry in your scotch, loser.

 

[IronCityBlue]

can give financial advice on how to run a trillion dollar industry...irony!
why don't you tell trump how to manage his biz while your at it!

Well then that industry is managed by supreme idiots who haven't made a dime in total since its inception, just maybe from time to time some advice from the people who actually know how to operate the things that are the core of the business is warranted. Or are you one of the no self esteem pilots who thinks what's best for management is best for everyone because they know all. :laugh: Oh I forgot to mention those brilliant managers have been recieving record breaking compensation coupled with horrible results. But yeah, they know best.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

No. You're not worth it. Go back to the majors board and cry in your scotch, loser.

I've think I've seen you posting on the majors board a few times. What is that favorite phrase of yours? Something about a kettle meeting a pot?

 

[John Pennekamp]

I've think I've seen you posting on the majors board a few times. What is that favorite phrase of yours? Something about a kettle meeting a pot?

I am definitely No General Lee. I don't go to people's houses just to insult him. That's all he's doing when he comes to the regional board and brags about how we're all going to lose our jobs, and how great HIS CAPTAIN'S big ass 767 is.