Hey Colgan!

[DrewBlows]

THat's funny, 2nd yr FO's just got a 13% raise without a union.

You can expect another raise. It's the "see you don't have to have a union to get more money" raise. Happens at every airline, during every union drive. Skywest has been making a living off union drives.

 

[redflyer65]

So they throw you a small bone but get to keep the rest for themselves? I'm glad you got your 13%, but take a look at your new Q400 rates while your at it. They are horrible.

I think that for 1.95% you could have had better rates across the board with better QOL issues and protection from heavy handed discipline. But if you think you can go it alone against these clowns that run Pinnacle Holdings, then I think you might be in for a rude awakening.

A 13% raise isn't worth much when you don't have the job because they decided they didn't care for the way you (insert reason here)......

 

[ifly34]

This is typical of an anti-union bias....expecting every issue to resolved in short order. The point, sir, is that the Air Wisc guys are going to get their money. In your world it would be OK to be in a position where they just bend you over and, if you complain, you're fired.

Every union that represents airline workers has to contend with the slow process mandated by the RLA. Talk to the Teamsters, AFA, APA.

You don't like ALPA or maybe all unions. Fine. You must like just getting whatever management wants to dish out. You probably don't complain when your dispatcher shorts you on fuel. Same mentality. Cheers.

Wildblue,
That is exactly my point. I am not in that world of "complain and get fired". If I were then I would rethink my position on ALPA. Have you read some of the other threads. They paint a picture of people at other airlines getting pushed around by the company and scheduling. The grievance process is not doing anything to stop it. So by your thinking, it is OK to get bent over by the company as long as you can file a grievance that will get settled in 4 years.

And as far as the RLA goes. Sounds to me that once you get representation you are knee deep in government sanctioned bureaucracy and red tape. Doesn't sound like fun (or efficiency) to me.

I am not against unions. I feel that they have a place in parts of todays society. But I do not think any union would be beneficial for any Colgan Air employee. Not any of the good ones anyway.

And no I don't complain if the dispatcher doesn't give me enough fuel. I call them and tell them I would like more. Isn't that what you would do?

 

[ifly34]

In the Colgan world you would have NEVER seen that cash. Well I guys you would have seen it rolling down the road as a new car for the Colgans as they head to their new vacation homes....

Suupah, You will see the company pull out every stop to thwart you guys from unionizing. It will blow your mind. Just sit back and watch the mantra and in the back of your mind wonder "why must these guys really not want a union sooo bad?" The answer is control and money in their pocket. Plain and simple.

Don't believe their lies. And there will be plenty....

Why does either side need to lie. Colgan is not perfect. ALPA is not perfect. This whole process is to see if ALPA is right for Colgan pilots. ALPA is going to paint the rosy picture. Colgan is going to show the negative side.

 

[jtrain609]

PCL pilots for a family plan pay about $120.00 a month for health insurance.

PCL pilots for a single guy about $40.00 a month for health insurance.

They have one plan, basically, the SWA medical benefit package.




Colgan pilots for a family plan about $330.00 a month for the top-tier health plan.

Colgan pilots for a single guy pay about $100.00 a month for the top-tier health insurance.

They just raised the rates for this next year, did we get a say in it?

A Colgan pilot will pay about $5000.00 out of his pocket if they are going to have a baby.


See how the union dues pay for them self?

 

[V1cutsrfun]

If ALPA can't negotiate a 1.95% raise for Colgan, then they would have a point. I'll go out on a limb (not really) and say that ALPA will be able to guarantee greater than a 1.95% raise for your first contract. It's an investment that more than pays for itself.

On another note, a unified Pinnacle/Colgan pilot group would benefit both groups. It's bad enough that mainline pits regional vs. regional, but it's even worse when the regional pits it's own pilot groups against each other.

I don't believe more true words could be said......

V1

 

[dingo222]

So they throw you a small bone but get to keep the rest for themselves? I'm glad you got your 13%, but take a look at your new Q400 rates while your at it. They are horrible.

Small bone? Our 2nd yr saab and beech FO's make more than your rj fo's. Even under new mgmt, we had a prob with attrition and low pay and they fixed it. How long have PCL pilots been working for crap pay?

I think that for 1.95% you could have had better rates across the board with better QOL issues and protection from heavy handed discipline. But if you think you can go it alone against these clowns that run Pinnacle Holdings, then I think you might be in for a rude awakening.

Heavy handed discipline? You basically have to be a total loser or crash a plane to get fired at colgan. Alpa doesn't need to be protecting pilots like that. THey need to weed them out.


A 13% raise isn't worth much when you don't have the job because they decided they didn't care for the way you (insert reason here)......

I totally agree with this. THis is what a union is about. Protections against lawsuits, sexual harassment charges, safety or FAA violations,health care and retirement benefits etc. Getting a raise is the last thing ALPA can do for colgan pilots.
You need to find some better arguments and some good logic if you really want colganites to follow along. The "believe me young neophyte, or you will learn the hard way, or be very, very scared" fear tactics aren't working. PCL hasn't done anything to stir the pot with Colgan pilots yet. We got a raise, new flying, new planes.

This is going back to the same ole discusion about colgan, pcl, and unions that started during the buyout. If you want ppl to consider a union, educate them on how a union can work for them, not what mgmt may do to them in the future. my .02

 

[redflyer65]

Jtrain is right on track. Re-read his post.

It doesn't affect me one way or the other wether you get a union or not. Be it ALPA, teamsters, or whatever. I am just trying to get the point across that you really don't know who you are dealing with here. Not a scare tactic, just the fact of how these guys operate. They will nickel and dime you to death.

They are great at the photo ops, but when it comes to ANY compensation they will kick and scream before paying you or trying to play by any rules. I've been at Pinnacle for 7 years, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of how it works here.

Our union keeps them in check....DAILY. And they hate it. They would like nothing more than to just make a unilateral decision and have the pilots live with it, but it doesn't happen that way. Their way of running things is coming your way and I think you would be better off unionized....with whomever you choose.

Beyond the facts, I already gave you plenty of reasons to unionize, just look at my previous post.

We have had situations where pilots refused flying under our current contract, and the company wanted to fire these guys on the spot. The union stepped in and represented them. The pilots were competely covered by the agreement, not management's whim.

This sums up Phil and co. about as basic as I can explain it.....

He wants to look in the mirror and see Jon Ornstein, that's how bad it would be if we didn't have ALPA. They don't even want to pay for hotels for God sake. (PS - It's a cost of doing business in this industry, but they would rather pocket the extra cash)

 

[WildBlue]

Wildblue,
That is exactly my point. I am not in that world of "complain and get fired". If I were then I would rethink my position on ALPA. Have you read some of the other threads. They paint a picture of people at other airlines getting pushed around by the company and scheduling. The grievance process is not doing anything to stop it. So by your thinking, it is OK to get bent over by the company as long as you can file a grievance that will get settled in 4 years.

And as far as the RLA goes. Sounds to me that once you get representation you are knee deep in government sanctioned bureaucracy and red tape. Doesn't sound like fun (or efficiency) to me.

I am not against unions. I feel that they have a place in parts of todays society. But I do not think any union would be beneficial for any Colgan Air employee. Not any of the good ones anyway.

And no I don't complain if the dispatcher doesn't give me enough fuel. I call them and tell them I would like more. Isn't that what you would do?

Let me go straight to the point. By voting for representation, be it ALPA, Teamsters, AMFA, AFA, or the Pencil Pushers Union, you sign up for the right to sit down across the table from management and negotiate the terms of your employment with the power of the entire pilot group behind you. You get to choose, freely, those whom you wish to have do the negotiating.

Without representation you take whatever it is that management decides to pay you, whatever work rules, fair or arbitrary, that management wishes to impose.

If you decide to stand up to management and press for a fair wage and work rules that are fair, you do so through the power of collective bargaining. It's not one pilot standing up.....it's 360.

If you are happy being a passenger when it comes to your income and QOL, stay non-union. Part of the point of what the PCL guys are telling you is that there is a new sheriff in town......and he is not on your side.

Choose wisely.

 

[ColganCapt]

Also those cards are EXTREMELY important that we have them returned ASAP. It is NOT a yes or no vote for a union. It shows the National Mediation Board that we have an interest for the democratic process to take place and a vote is put forth for us to decide on our future.

How many cards do they need?

 

[ColganCapt]

THat's funny, 2nd yr FO's just got a 13% raise without a union.

That's a simple gesture to try to keep some FO's from jumping ship since the upgrade time is around 24 months now. And to try to make you not vote in a union. Why not look at the fact that the pay scale for the Q is the same - no raise there but for the CA's.

 

[suupah]

Everyone knows that the pinnacle guys have it rough. HOWEVER lets compare the union shop that has it tough to the Colgan non union work rules and benefits

Colgan: No paid uniforms, No dry cleaning or luggage expenses paid for, No per diem, Expensive health insurance, 2 hour reserve pay, no min pay, 1 hour call out on reserve, heavily scrutinized if you call out sick, difficult to commute to bases, no commuter clause, no 401k matching, no grievance process.

Pinnacle: half uniform is paid for, dry cleaning allowance, reasonable health insurance, 3:45 min pay, 2 hour call out, perdiem, hub bases, grievance process, 401k matching.

If the Colgan management wants to stop the union drive they need to address the issues and not use propoganda.

 

[redflyer65]

Suupah, I'm impressed. Well said. You show exactly what happens under the union/no union situation.

 

[Capn Lucky]

There are much bigger issues than pay at stake with Colgan. Everytime I want to think that TSA ia a bad place, I remember a typical day at Colgan in give thanks for what I have. The reserve system there needs to be reformed and the "Colgan Tours" must come to an end.The outstation basing is innefficient and the constant pt 91 flying is a pain in the butt. Then there is pay.

Pinnacle bought Colgan as a whipsaw. Colganites, do not be tools! The three amigo's in BHB do not care about anyone else. You guys have an opportunity to stop the downward slide in the industry. Please take the opportunity to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. ALPA by itself is not a solution to your issues. Your support for your pilot group and ALPA is a solution. I know how the dirty pack of cigarettes and the boys from BHB will try to manipulate the situation and do not fall for threats.

 

[Mr Wu]

.... The three amigo's in BHB do not care about anyone else. ... the boys from BHB will try to manipulate the situation ....

What's your problem with BHB? Those guys live there and think more of their families than the job. Should they have left so you could have held a line? They are stand up guys that will do whatever they will think is best, which is all that we want everyone to do, whichever side they are on.

 

[TurboAWD]

What has ALPA done for Comair, ASA, Mesa, Air Willy and all the others?

If you don't know the awnser to that, you have not been paying attention.

Turbo

 

[ifly34]

If you don't know the awnser to that, you have not been paying attention.

Turbo

What I have been paying attention to is a lot of people on this board alone are complaining about how the union let them down at Comair, ASA, and certainly Mesa. I haven't noticed a lot of complaining about Air Willy. I guess one out of four ain't bad. Go union. (sarcasm inserted)

 

[Smarta$$]

What I have been paying attention to is a lot of people on this board alone are complaining about how the union let them down at Comair, ASA, and certainly Mesa. I haven't noticed a lot of complaining about Air Willy. I guess one out of four ain't bad. Go union. (sarcasm inserted)

Why don't you ask Horizon, Expressjet, Southwest, Fedex and UPS pilots how they feel about having a union. Ask what a union had done for Delta, United and Northwest pilots before they were robbed by bankruptcy. They had things pretty good before BK, much to the dissatisfaction of their respective managements that would rather have paid them half as much for twice the work.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Where would the MESA pilot be without ALPA? Oh yeah..............bent over a hot stove.

You people act as though history started when you were hired at xyz airline. Do a little research for yourselves and quit expecting others to educate you.

 

[BirdCatcher]

What I have been paying attention to is a lot of people on this board alone are complaining about how the union let them down at Comair, ASA, and certainly Mesa. I haven't noticed a lot of complaining about Air Willy. I guess one out of four ain't bad. Go union. (sarcasm inserted)

And what they are complaining about it is 2x better then how we have it at Colgan (except for Mesa). ASA's 70 seat scale is for an ATR (60-70 slower then the Q400) and our payscale is less. People will always say it can be better, but what do you think payscales would be without any union? Honestly. Look at the history of our profession, even some of the rules we at Colgan live by (FAA regs) are because of ALPA. What would our profession be today if E.L. Cord and other owners of his day had no union to deal with?

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Everyone knows that the pinnacle guys have it rough. HOWEVER lets compare the union shop that has it tough to the Colgan non union work rules and benefits

Colgan: No paid uniforms, No dry cleaning or luggage expenses paid for, No per diem, Expensive health insurance, 2 hour reserve pay, no min pay, 1 hour call out on reserve, heavily scrutinized if you call out sick, difficult to commute to bases, no commuter clause, no 401k matching, no grievance process.

Pinnacle: half uniform is paid for, dry cleaning allowance, reasonable health insurance, 3:45 min pay, 2 hour call out, perdiem, hub bases, grievance process, 401k matching.

If the Colgan management wants to stop the union drive they need to address the issues and not use propoganda.

Ok...PCL has half a uniform pay, nearly double the min pay, double the call out, per diem, hub based, a grievence process, regardless of how long it might take, but better then another F-n memo or a "handbook" that is nothing more then a take it or leave it....and the company can STILL pick and choose whether or not to pay you for what they said they would from their own damn book. I know which way to vote.....


Suupah.... well put 2 beers on me :beer:

V1

 

[Capn Lucky]

Pesonally, I like the guys in BHB. However, they have personal agendas and do not represent the typical regional pilots. I never saw one of those guys be asked to rent a car with his own credit card or get screwed with like most Colgan pilots. I've been informed that they are doing meetings with the cp to discuss ALPA (read threaten). Many love to ask about alpa's acomplishments recently. Regretably, I must respond with a speculation of what situations may be like if ALPA were not there. By itself, ALPA is not a solution, but it is a good tool. The Colgan pilots are the solution.

 

[Mr Wu]

I've been informed that they are doing meetings with the cp to discuss ALPA (read threaten).

You were misinformed.

 

[Smarta$$]

You were misinformed.

Holly cow batman! You know everything!

 

[Capn Lucky]

You were misinformed.

So... they are now pro-ALPA?

 

[better up here]

what about that letter from mike yesterday? some of that didn't even sound legal...i guess free speech and all, but dang. let's just keep it in the family, ha!

the best quote though - "If you sign that card, it may lead to giving away your right to represent yourself and talk to the company directly about your wages, the hours you work and your working conditions."

are you kidding me?

 

[redflyer65]

That's hilarious!

That's what a union does Mr. Colgan!

It's called group representation. The all or none mentality, but I get he doesn't like that idea.

 

[Mr Wu]

the best quote though - "If you sign that card, it may lead to giving away your right to represent yourself and talk to the company directly about your wages, the hours you work and your working conditions."

are you kidding me?

They are telling the truth here. There is a provision that allows a union to petition the NMB for certification based on the initial cards. To date, I don't believe that the NMB has ever certified a union without an election. Could be wrong though, and I'm sure someone from Atlanta will be along shortly to give an example of where it has happened.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

what about that letter from mike yesterday? some of that didn't even sound legal...i guess free speech and all, but dang. let's just keep it in the family, ha!

the best quote though - "If you sign that card, it may lead to giving away your right to represent yourself and talk to the company directly about your wages, the hours you work and your working conditions."

are you kidding me?

Bwahahaha. I would want to sign the card for sure now. Let me tell you, from what I have seen and experienced it's much better with a union. You can put pay aside (although thats important as well) the work rules alone can make a union worth it, and I'm a former Colganite.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Hey if anyone knows were "bullet" went out west PM I think I just met his boss and need his email.