Hawaiian to exit BK on June 1st

[HAL]

Hey HAL, I heard that the last time AWA had guys on furlough, ALPA fined the guys flying open trips. Have you heard that?

I don't know. I haven't heard much at all about what happened in the past as everyone is involved in the merger preperations.

HAL

 

[Jim]

I'm gonna make a guess here. I don't think that everyone will be back on the seniority list for another 2 years.

I hope it's sooner than that but I would not be surprised if it takes that long. I'll find out though since I'll be the 4th from the last recalled.

 

[Erndogg]

They have added flying - no recalls.

They have had retirements - no recalls

'Adequately staffed by contract' and 'realisticly staffed' are two different things.

They have the appropriate number of pilots based on the contractual staffing formula. However that formula has just recently been taken to the limit, and the real world test is just beginning. There are a lot of guys there bidding for max hours and minimum rest. For June 38% of the 767 pilots bid to maximize their hours. Yes it's legal. But with a quarter of the pilots on furlough, is it right? That's how they are getting away with not recalling anyone for now.

HAL

Unfortunately our union lets these guys/gals bid that way. This lets the company staff to the minimal on reserve.
When there are thin days and there are inadeqate reserves-they will just recall and be able to get a money hungry pilot for DOUBLE TIME!!!-THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR THESE SHORTFALLS BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER THAN CALLING BACK FURLOUGHEES!!!
Our union has to step up and stop this practice!!!

 

[Hansoma]

Unless it gets their pic on the front of the Hoike, some of the HAL pilots really couldn't give a s*#t about anyone but themselves. Just my opinion... (Not that it's worth much)

 

[mdanno808]

I would have thought, that while the MEC was negotiating the TA, they would have at least mentioned the possibility of taking the recall option away from active pilots while there are pilots on furlough. I trully appreciate those of the active pilots who have denied recall over and over again. They have sacrificed a lot of money to try to help all of those on furlough. Unfortunately, for everyone one pilot who denies recall, there are two waiting to accept it.

 

[Dan Roman]

Unless it gets their pic on the front of the Hoike, some of the HAL pilots really couldn't give a s*#t about anyone but themselves. Just my opinion... (Not that it's worth much)

For the record, the list that the the Hawaiian Pilots have gone above and beyond for the furloughed pilots is long. We have paid your cobra payments out of our pockets after your coverage expired. Negiotiated bypass rights and seniority protection that many furloughed pilots at other airlines don't get. You were represented VERY well at this last round of negiotiations. Active pilots could have gotten more at the expense of the furloughed pilots but the reps (with the full support of the rank and file) would have none of it. I know you said SOME, but we overwhelmingly care about you guys and are doing all we can. There is a lot of really good guys on the street and we want you back.

I understand your frustration when pilots fly double overtime or accept recall, that has been a part of our working agreement for a long time. It was meant to be a win win boost to productivity. IE, pilots can make substantial overtime for occasional shortages. Shortages that are temporary and wouldn't result in hiring or recall anyway. It gets abused by both sides sometimes, but the company does post how many hours of recall go out each month, sometimes substantial, sometimes zero.

Speaking of the Hoiki (no I've never had my pic on the cover) the most recent issue had a article by Dunkerly outlining Hawaiians efforts. They are busting their ass trying to find compatible used 767's. They have recently hired a firm that specializes in finding used aircraft and it is a top priority. According to the article, they don't want new aircraft because we are in the same boat as the other airlines wanting only used aircraft, we want the next generation of new aircraft.
Nobody is speculating recalls until we get more aircraft, but they will do something, but it has to make financial sense. Ranch capital has lot of money and business savvy. I know augmenting the 767's with 757's has been considered, but they need at least 5 or 6 as there is very little parts commanality to justify just 2 or 3. That part I know, rumor is they have also looked at used 777's.

I saw the war of words on HT between a senior pilot pilot and a furloughed pilot. It's frustrating to be on furlough and it's frustrating to be senior and listen to furloughed pilots whine. The senior pilot has been furloughed in his time and he has reached into his own pocket to help, only to have it bitten by complaints that we don't do enough. Hang in there, it will all change soon.

 

[Jim]

I agree completely that the MEC and active pilots went above and beyond to protected those of us on furlough in the recent negotiations/contract. The manning formula took a hit, but it was worth it to perserve the contract in other areas to include ensuring that furloughed pilots kept the same retirement benefits as active pilots.

I also thank the active pilots giving to the furlughed in the way of COBRA payments etc.

While I appreciate any pilot who turns down recall flying, I do not hold any ill will towards those who accept it. I wish all would turn down the extra flying but I understand it is a contractual right. I also understand that there are many former Captains that got displaced to FO taking a big monetary hit. They have bills to pay too. I can appreciate that Captains in their last three years need to fly as much as possible to get their final average earns up to maximize their retirement income.

At this point in time, I'm just hoping RC finds some planes and expands the airline. While not flying recall might get a few of the more senor furloughees back, it's expansion that will get the majority of us back.

 

[HAL]

Dan Roman,

You are absolutely right that the majority of HA pilots are very understanding to the situation us furloughees found ourselves in. And the assistance in the COBRA assessment was an absolute lifesaver for many of us too. I don't think any of the furloughees have a bad word to say about the vast majority of pilots still working there. It's the few bad apples, and a messed up management & bankruptcy team that really soured the waters.

The war of words on HT (and I was part of it once too, before my switch in companies left me unable to access the HA board) were between just a few people, but those attitudes left a bitter taste in our mouths, for better or worse.

Before I was furloughed I was told to my face by a couple of pilots that 'furloughs are a part of the business - a rite of passage.' I disagreed then, and I disagree now, especially in the light (that I couldn't get across to those few people) that:

1) As a union I thought we were supposed to be looking out for everyone there, not only for yourself, and

2) A group effort led by the MEC to get everyone to bid a minimum line would have changed the staffing level to a point where at least a few would have to be recalled. and

3) Just as a matter of principle, (my own viewpoint here) nobody should be bidding max line or volunteering for double pay flying when a quarter of the seniority list is out on the streets, unless you're about to retire or hit the streets yourself.

For better or for worse, and despite the best efforts of the large majority of HA pilots, an attitude of "what's mine is mine, and to he!! with the rest of you furloughees" by a very few pilots is what a lot of us remembered when we were let go. It didn't help that the general consensus seems to be that the bankruptcy shouldn't have happened in the first place, the last two 767's shouldn't have been rejected, and that the bankruptcy dragged on way too long making too many lawyers rich at our (everyone's) expense.

I have nothing but good memories of my time at HA, and every person I flew with was great as a co-worker. Who knows where we'll all end up in five years - a lot of us may bring back a wide variety of flying experience that could be used to make Hawaiian the best place to work in the industry. You guys that are there now have helped an infinite amount by what you did in getting the contract version that was finally approved. Just keep reminding that minority of 'me first' people that we're still here and still a part of the HA family.

HAL

 

[Erndogg]

I have nothing but good memories of my time at HA, and every person I flew with was great as a co-worker. Who knows where we'll all end up in five years - a lot of us may bring back a wide variety of flying experience that could be used to make Hawaiian the best place to work in the industry. You guys that are there now have helped an infinite amount by what you did in getting the contract version that was finally approved. Just keep reminding that minority of 'me first' people that we're still here and still a part of the HA family.

HAL

HAL,
I know your frustration since I was furloughed and recalled (one of the lucky ones!!!) But during the whole negotiating process I would always keep the furlougees in mind when I discussed issues with our reps.
There were actual arguements between the more junior and senior pilots regarding give and take issues in the negotiations. (one disgruntaled furloughed pilot actually walked out of a informational meeting)
There was a common thought that the JUNIOR guys had taken it in the shorts during the famous PLAN A/PLAN B Adams fiasco!!! and that they should'nt be sacraficed again.
But I believe that- we as junior guys got a fair shake in the whole deal compared to what the company wanted to take from the furloughees (retirement).
And for the record-I have been called 3 times since coming back- to fly for double time. I TURNED THEM DOWN THREE TIMES.

 

[Hansoma]

For the record Dan, I never accepted the Cobra payments. Instead I chose to let that money go to someone who needed it more than me. Who knows, if I had, maybe I could have kept my house.

Anyway, this is a tired argument and we'll never agree. My point was that there are only a very few pilots over there that don't really seem to care about the furloughees. It only takes one to ruin everything.....

 

[mdanno808]

Spoke to a captain yesterday who spoke directly to Dunkerley. Dunkerely said that there would be no recalls until spring next year. Promises of expansion and new airplanes during contract negotiations is like dangling a carrot in front of a dirt mule. If Hawaiian thinks they will find airplanes in good shape which match our current aircraft on the "used AC market" they are fooling themselves. Again, I hate to say it, but I think that the furloughed are in for a long ride.

 

[Dan Roman]

During negotiations it was thought that they would get the three 767's contingent on exiting BK in April. They were gone by the time we exited. The Spring comment was made as a worst case scenario. As I'm sure you know, things change in this industry very quickly.

 

[mdanno808]

I think that the spring comment was probably a very likely scenario. I whole heartedly would love an earlier recall, I just don't see it in the cards. First, as I'm sure you know, used 767's are out there, but not in a great abundance. Now, narrow those down to 300-ER's with Pratt's. Aircraft which Hawaiian hope to find are few and far between. We missed our chance at the United Birds, and I am afraid now that it may be a long time till we find a plane that fit's our fleet. I have also been told that reconfiguring the cabin takes an extremely long time, and costs an awful lot of cash. The one thing this furlough has taught me is to be pessimistic about any time line Hawaiian's management put's forward. Hope everything is going well on the line.

 

[HAL]

I got the exact same phrase from the chief pilot (through a friend who talked directly to him). No hiring until at least next spring if there are no new planes. He said HA is overstaffed by 18, but wouldn't furlough because of the clause in the new contract. However he also said that the reserve guys are averaging 70+ hours a month, and the line holders are averaging 85 - 90. Furlough 18 from that, and you'll see how close the staffing formula is to reality.

I think a number of us have said it here and on other message boards. Gotbaum really s@rewed the pooch by dragging the BK out so long. The opportunities that presented themselves in the last two years were bypassed, and now HA won't have the planes to take advantage of new ones.

Yes, it might change - if someone decides that the desired 'new technology' planes are just too far into the future (delivery positions for the 787 are in 2010, A350 are 2011 - 2012). Hopefully they'll come to their senses and place an order for more new 767's. Those planes work well for HA now, and should for quite a while into the future.

The one thing this furlough has taught me is to be pessimistic about any time line Hawaiian's management put's forward.

And that's one sentiment I completely agree with. I think we've been hopeful long enough. It's time for management to "show me the money".

HAL

 

[mdanno808]

More bad news. A friend of mine who is halfway down the furloughed list was told by Seavy that he should not expect a recall for two years.

 

[HAL]

More bad news. A friend of mine who is halfway down the furloughed list was told by Seavy that he should not expect a recall for two years.

Which would mean they don't expect to expand at all during that time. No growth, no new planes, none of RC's 'plan' for a larger HA. Nothing except a multi-million dollar bankruptcy bill from a slew of lawyers, and another multi-million dollar tab for Gotbaum's 'success fee'.

HAL

 

[Jim]

More bad news. A friend of mine who is halfway down the furloughed list was told by Seavy that he should not expect a recall for two years.

Based solely on attrition/retirements, I can believe this and I would expect to be out for a few more years after that. But I hope RC is actually looking at expansion and new planes. If not, we will soon find ourselves back in the red and returning to bankruptcy.

Supposedly Dunkerly was recently in Europe talking to aircraft leasing companies. Also, the company has supposedly hired a firm that specializes in finding "the right aircraft" and negotiating competative lease rates.

Of course we can never be sure because of the veil of secrecy both management and the MEC like to maintain.

 

[mdanno808]

I hate to be the one to bring the doom and gloom, but how is it that they are just now realizing that finding aircraft compatible with the existing fleet will be difficult? The pilot's have once again been baited with promises of money invested, new planes, and new routes. Hawaiian missed out on expanding during last summers record breaking loads. That was a shame, but understandable because of the BK red tape. This summer looks to surpass last, and we will still miss out on the opportunities that everyone else is taking advantage of. We will sit and watch ATA, AWA, AA, CAL, UAL, NAA, and everyone else who serves the Hawaii market expand while we sit back and watch Dunkerley and the rest of management talk about all of the firms on the payroll to help them find the aircraft we need. Once again, I truly hope I am wrong, but given events of the past, I think it will be a looooong furlough.

 

[Hansoma]

This is just one more example of management by knee-jerk reaction. I just can't imagine that Dunkerly is that short sighted, but maybe so. I would have hoped that they would have been able to come up with an aircraft order that could have been announced when they exited. At least then, at their little party they would have really had something to celebrate. It's not like they didn't have the time over the past two years. The disappointments just keep coming.

 

[Whale Rider]

Hawaiian looks for extra 767s

Source: Flight International
US carrier Hawaiian Airlines is searching for additional Boeing 767s weeks after emerging from bankruptcy protection, in a bid to expand its network, writes Justin Wastnage in Honolulu.

The independent carrier emerged from Chapter 11 on 2 June, over two years after filing for protection from its creditors in the wake of a severe downturn in leisure bookings due to the US invasion of Iraq. Mark Dunkerley, Hawaiian’s chief executive, says the protection period allowed it to restructure and return to a level of profitability, enabling it to pay its debts in full. Changes to labour agreements with flightcrew and maintenance personnel led to a rise in profitability of around 15%, he says.

During the Chapter 11 period, several local and mainland USA-based competitors launched rival services, especially to the US West Coast, as Hawaiian was unable to expand while under protection, Dunkerley says.

The Honolulu-based airline is now seeking to augment its 14 767-300ERs to launch services to northern California, Oregon and Washington states; to increase frequencies to its eight south-western US destinations; and to add routes to Pacific Rim countries. Hawaiian will add services to San José, California in October, but has insufficient capacity to fulfil other expansion hopes, says Dunkerley.

“We can’t guarantee where or when we will acquire, but we are in the market for additional lift. It’s a tight market,” he says.

The carrier flies to American Samoa, French Polynesia, Papeete and Sydney, and has received “positive signals” to enquiries about doubling frequencies to Sydney under the US-Australia bilateral agreement. There are slots available under the US-Japanese bilateral that Hawaiian could use to fly to Japanese regional cities, and New Zealand is another possible destination.