Having pioneered the abuse of ALPA merger policy

[Flopgut]

It seems now UAL thinks it's a real good idea to cling to it. Fascinating. Because the last three times UAL pilots needed to consider how it might apply to them and a fellow ALPA pilot group, they have found a way around it. USAir and America West were being "purchased" by UAL (according to UAL MEC), and therefore those pilots weren't entitled to ALPA merger policy. And Frontier. That's where it began; Merger policy was in the equation until UAL ALPA got a good look at the longevity/DOH of the average FAL pilot. They decided real quick merger policy (and especially longevity) was not a good thing for them,,, then. Now? Now they want to be wrapped in ALPA merger policy like a blanket. Now they act like longevity is suppose to be sacred.

What I do not understand is how UAL pilots can carry on like this with absolutely zero humility. Seriously, how do you write an SLI opener and run down the other airline with the same sort of complete BS you once used to declare yourselves brain surgeons and all other airline pilots simple doctors? You do realize that everybody that was there watching you then is still here? These are all the same judges, arbitrators, lawyers, etc. Everybody remembers.

 

[Flopgut]

So blatantly ignorant of their own past behavior, the UAL SLI opener even cites the Continental merger of (what remained of) Frontier multiple times!! Really? After you took the 737s and their Denver base and gave not one of them a job, you think you ought to be able to hold up how they were eventually treated in SLI as an example?

I would like to hear a LUAL pilot tell us all: Why do you deserve merger policy? Why does your longevity matter?

 

[Jetjockey]

Unless your on the merger committee, or one the arbitrators............this thread is futile.

NO one gets a vote, and what you think will have ZERO bearing on the outcome. Whatever the outcome, accept it, move on in life.

 

[TWA Dude]

Seriously, how do you write an SLI opener...

Who cares what their opener is? You need to grow some thicker skin. The arbitrators already have.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Yeah Flopgut.....

Let's use ancient history as an argument (rolling eyes). I mean Orville and Wilbur disputed who would fly first. Can you dig up that story for your argument?

Today's industry is all that matters.

 

[General Lee]

Unfortunately feelings can be hurt by these openers, but your side is going for a homerun. It is up to the MECs to put up good arguments to SUPPORT those assertions, which if they are outlandish, will be dismissed by the arbitrator panel. In other words, if it doesn't pass the basic logic test, it won't get far at all. Each side puts out a list that THEY would like to see, and often it isn't close. It's up to the neutrals, and what the pilots have to do after the award is to abide by it, and don't pull a jackhole move like the crybaby Easties at USair.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Who cares what their opener is? You need to grow some thicker skin. The arbitrators already have.

Thicker skin?! This is coming from a TWA pilot? Look, as bad as you guys think ALPA and AMR treated you, you still ended up with jobs. Your career will continue at the same place your airplanes ended up. Not so for FAL.

Yeah Flopgut.....

Let's use ancient history as an argument (rolling eyes). I mean Orville and Wilbur disputed who would fly first. Can you dig up that story for your argument?

Today's industry is all that matters.

Ok, so the UAL pilots hired in 85, put the FAL pilots on the street in 86, and then flew their airplanes til 02. That's ancient history and not worth consideration? But it's appropriate for UAL to use the FAL/CAL pilot SLI of 87 in their argument? Wow... Btw, examples cited in this SLI go way farther back than the 80s. And there is nothing too ancient.

 

[Flopgut]

Unfortunately feelings can be hurt by these openers, but your side is going for a homerun.

Explain to me how we are going for a homerun? I frankly do not even understand what the exact end play it is that our SLI methodology would produce. CA to CA, FO to FO integration? I think that means we use our total CA and FO numbers, and then integrate separately pilots from the two seats at the two airlines. Seems to me it anchors the top and bottom and puts some play in the middle. Remember the top of the CAL list is senior in all respects to all but a handful of UAL pilots. So the top several hundred should be 90% CAL if we use merger policy.

But UAL wants us fenced off their airplanes and fenced out of their hubs. They want to keep what they feel they brought to the merger, and they want to take what we brought. Typical UAL; They've been that way forever.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Flopgut, this is the last chance for a lot of United pilots to get a career do-over. To date, their bottom third's careers haven't lived up to the "career expectations" they were sold as new hires. They were convinced they were the Gods of aviation, and the thought of a fair integration with the likes of a Continental just sickens them. Their goal is to grab as much seniority as possible out of this and make up for lost time. Can anyone honestly say, that if CAL had 1400 furloughees at the time of the merger that any version of a UAL SLI proposal would include placing furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots?

My version of a fair integration is irrelevant; I am prepared to accept whatever gets arbitrated. Unfortunately, the UAL SLI expectations are so out of whack with fairness and reality they can only be disappointed with the outcome. I don't know if it's true, but is UAL already assessing money to challenge the arbitration? If so, that should tell you something.

 

[General Lee]

Explain to me how we are going for a homerun? I frankly do not even understand what the exact end play it is that our SLI methodology would produce. CA to CA, FO to FO integration? I think that means we use our total CA and FO numbers, and then integrate separately pilots from the two seats at the two airlines. Seems to me it anchors the top and bottom and puts some play in the middle. Remember the top of the CAL list is senior in all respects to all but a handful of UAL pilots. So the top several hundred should be 90% CAL if we use merger policy.

But UAL wants us fenced off their airplanes and fenced out of their hubs. They want to keep what they feel they brought to the merger, and they want to take what we brought. Typical UAL; They've been that way forever.

Wait, wait, what I meant was EACH side has to submit their own list, and EACH side tries to go for a home run. The arbitrators will sift through the BS, and give an award and an explanation. Of course each side wants fences, etc. In the end, I think the 744s and the CAL 787s will be fenced for 5 years, and there will be a 2 year NO BUMP and FLUSH. After all that, watch out. This will be tough to guess how it will end up, but I have heard the bottom CAL 757/767 at EWR was a 2005 hire (?), and there are lots of 2001 to 2003 737 Capts. How do you blend them in with a 1997 UAL hire that can barely hold a line as an FO on a 767?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Flopgut, this is the last chance for a lot of United pilots to get a career do-over. To date, their bottom third's careers haven't lived up to the "career expectations" they were sold as new hires. They were convinced they were the Gods of aviation, and the thought of a fair integration with the likes of a Continental just sickens them. Their goal is to grab as much seniority as possible out of this and make up for lost time. Can anyone honestly say, that if CAL had 1400 furloughees at the time of the merger that any version of a UAL SLI proposal would include placing furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots?

My version of a fair integration is irrelevant; I am prepared to accept whatever gets arbitrated. Unfortunately, the UAL SLI expectations are so out of whack with fairness and reality they can only be disappointed with the outcome. I don't know if it's true, but is UAL already assessing money to challenge the arbitration? If so, that should tell you something.

Unfortunately UAL decided to shrink prior to this merger. 733s were parked, and lots of furloughs resulted. That sucks. Was that due to an upcoming merger? Nobody really knows. Was that the fault of the CAL pilots? CAL is growing, UAL was shrinking. Was it because one was cheaper? Both had crappy contracts. The arbitrators will have to hear testimony, look at documents, look at ALPA merger policies, and come up with an award, and an explanation. But, look at USAir has an idea what could happen. NIC looked at longevity, and it didn't seem to matter much. He looked at what each company brought to the table at the ANNOUNCEMENT of the merger. If you were the bottom guy at the time, regardless of your experience, you are still regarded the BOTTOM. It is what it is. Maybe they will change things slightly, but I doubt it. You never HAVE to stay at an airline. I know a friend that was furloughed at UAL after 9-11 and went to CAL in 05. Where should he go? Back to the UAL list, or stay on the CAL side because he made the decision to try somewhere else? Tough regardless.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Mr.B]

So blatantly ignorant of their own past behavior, the UAL SLI opener even cites the Continental merger of (what remained of) Frontier multiple times!! Really? After you took the 737s and their Denver base and gave not one of them a job, you think you ought to be able to hold up how they were eventually treated in SLI as an example?

I would like to hear a LUAL pilot tell us all: Why do you deserve merger policy? Why does your longevity matter?

Why does longevity matter?

It really doesn't matter what I (or you) think. Longevity WILL be considered by the arbitrators and we all are just gonna live with it.

I will make a prediction though. There will be not be the staple job CAL dreams of.

Feel free to save this post and repost in Septemebr.

Cheers mate.

 

[list2002]

And yes the 05 hire CAL guys are at the bottom in EWR, but of the 737... in the left seat.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

And yes the 05 hire CAL guys are at the bottom in EWR, but of the 737... in the left seat.

Not exactly accurate. The bottom Captain in Newark on the 757/767 is a 2005 hire. On the 737, they are Captains in IAH, EWR, CLE, ORD, DEN, LAX, and Guam. 2005 Captains are as high as 86% in some bases, which is well above the 90% G-line which means they are line holders. Junior 737 Captain might even be a 2007 hire, I would have to check.

For those that want to believe that Captain goes artificially junior at CAL, the junior staffed Captain for both CAL and UAL is 66% system seniority for March. The only difference is when that pilot at 66% was hired.

 

[FR8mastr]

This can really turn into a mess, if only there was a way that pilots could be listed that did not rely on who's lawyer made a better argument that day. Perhaps a way that would be known to all pilots before going in, but I know something like that is just a pipe dream, and doesn't stand up to arguments like "my plane is bigger than yours" and "my company made more than yours last quarter".

 

[Mil Leave]

Not exactly accurate. The bottom Captain in Newark on the 757/767 is a 2005 hire. On the 737, they are Captains in IAH, EWR, CLE, ORD, DEN, LAX, and Guam. 2005 Captains are as high as 86% in some bases, which is well above the 90% G-line which means they are line holders. Junior 737 Captain might even be a 2007 hire, I would have to check.

For those that want to believe that Captain goes artificially junior at CAL, the junior staffed Captain for both CAL and UAL is 66% system seniority for March. The only difference is when that pilot at 66% was hired.

Can you post what fleet and seat they were in at the MAD? Just because there has been incredible growth in the last three years (since the merger announcement) don't think an arbitrator will be forced to take into account an updated status and category position like the CAL opener proposed. -Mil

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, this is the last chance for a lot of United pilots to get a career do-over. To date, their bottom third's careers haven't lived up to the "career expectations" they were sold as new hires. They were convinced they were the Gods of aviation, and the thought of a fair integration with the likes of a Continental just sickens them. Their goal is to grab as much seniority as possible out of this and make up for lost time. Can anyone honestly say, that if CAL had 1400 furloughees at the time of the merger that any version of a UAL SLI proposal would include placing furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots?

My version of a fair integration is irrelevant; I am prepared to accept whatever gets arbitrated. Unfortunately, the UAL SLI expectations are so out of whack with fairness and reality they can only be disappointed with the outcome. I don't know if it's true, but is UAL already assessing money to challenge the arbitration? If so, that should tell you something.

Agreed. I too will live with the award and have less anxiety than it might seem. What I'm more interested in doing is pointing out to the UAL side that they are getting treated a lot better in this process than they ever would have treated us. And I want to try and make that point while it's going on. Of course they would never entertain helping out our furloughs if we had them. They never would have recalled them in a TPA like we did theirs. They would refuse to integrate them and be hiring off the street. Every pilot hired over there thru at least 02 benefited from their past actions in exploiting merger policy (longevity would have never been out of that equation if they had done the right thing in the past) now they are holding up the policy like it's been gospel forever. Well, they'll get merged based on the policy, but they don't deserve it.

Wait, wait, what I meant was EACH side has to submit their own list, and EACH side tries to go for a home run. The arbitrators will sift through the BS, and give an award and an explanation. Of course each side wants fences, etc. In the end, I think the 744s and the CAL 787s will be fenced for 5 years, and there will be a 2 year NO BUMP and FLUSH. After all that, watch out. This will be tough to guess how it will end up, but I have heard the bottom CAL 757/767 at EWR was a 2005 hire (?), and there are lots of 2001 to 2003 737 Capts. How do you blend them in with a 1997 UAL hire that can barely hold a line as an FO on a 767?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Ok, yeah, I get it and agree with you.

 

[list2002]

Not exactly accurate. The bottom Captain in Newark on the 757/767 is a 2005 hire. On the 737, they are Captains in IAH, EWR, CLE, ORD, DEN, LAX, and Guam. 2005 Captains are as high as 86% in some bases, which is well above the 90% G-line which means they are line holders. Junior 737 Captain might even be a 2007 hire, I would have to check.

Even better then. 06 is the most Jr. CA I heard of. Forget which base.

 

[Flopgut]

UAL going after the "true longevity" of the average CAL pilot because our seniority list DOH numbers jump around... Unbelievable. Hint: That's what a seniority list looks like when you actually integrate pilots in a merger IAW a merger policy!!! UAL pilots don't understand this because they only use merger policy when it suits them. They prefer to take the airplanes and leave their union brothers and sisters on the street.

 

[chppr5]

UAL going after the "true longevity" of the average CAL pilot because our seniority list DOH numbers jump around... Unbelievable. Hint: That's what a seniority list looks like when you actually integrate pilots in a merger IAW a merger policy!!! UAL pilots don't understand this because they only use merger policy when it suits them. They prefer to take the airplanes and leave their union brothers and sisters on the street.

Give it a rest will ya. These hearings are going to be an emotional roller coaster. Both sides will argue to benefit their respective group. I guess you're OK with the CAL argument, must seem pretty reasonable to you. From our side it's comical. FWIW, DOH is when CAL started paying you and when you started flying CAL aircraft not when Britt, Bar Harbor, Express Jet......etc started paying you. Also, when did you guys get 110 wide bodies???

 

[Flopgut]

What's wrong with a stovepipe CA/CA FO/FO integration? Would the results of that method be a departure from merger policy? You understand what that means and how the list would look?

It seems you might be confused about longevity vs. DOH. They are two different things and there is no problem with our list in this regard. The pilots that you have in question have the longevity that they do because they were involved in integrations. Your group's longevity numbers would look quite a bit different too, if you had always had the commitment to merger policy that you seem to now.

*To have the problem understanding this that you do, only further illustrates how little you know about what merger policy is and results in. Which is kinda crazy, because you act like it's the best thing ever, now.

 

[chppr5]

What's wrong with a stovepipe CA/CA FO/FO integration? Would the results of that method be a departure from merger policy? You understand what that means and how the list would look?

It seems you might be confused about longevity vs. DOH. They are two different things and there is no problem with our list in this regard. The pilots that you have in question have the longevity that they do because they were involved in integrations. Your group's longevity numbers would look quite a bit different too, if you had always had the commitment to merger policy that you seem to now.

*To have the problem understanding this that you do, only further illustrates how little you know about what merger policy is and results in. Which is kinda crazy, because you act like it's the best thing ever, now.

OK, you're Mr Merger policy. The stove pipe doesn't work because we have many more F/O's due to the fact we have 3x's the jumbos as CAL. You have 22 777's, we have 76 747/777's, which mean we have MANY more augmented trips with 3 and 4 crew members, hence more F/O's. ALPA merger policy now includes longevity unlike when USAirways and AmWest merged. I know the difference between longevity and DOH it seems your merger comm may need a refresher course. DOH has everything to do with longevity, you have to have a start point for longevity. DOH with Britt, Bar Harbor and Express Jet is NOT the same as DOH at CAL. AND as your merger comm seems to think, flow back to Express Jet does not count as longevity at CAL! As I said before both sides will argue to represent their pilots. Why bother stirring the pot. We have no say in this. The arbitrators will decide. I guess you just love drama....

 

[Flopgut]

Well, I think it maybe helps to debate here. Test assumptions, float ideas. Honestly, the last exchange we had on here I was trying to gather some inspiration about what UAL brought to the merger. That was a good natured attempt that unfortunately failed.

I'm perfectly comfortable admitting we have fewer true widebody airplanes. But we have far from zero. Widebody CA is a very real career expectation for a big number of CAL pilots (especially widebody pay). If we do something other than stovepipe, at least the entire bottom third, or maybe even half our pilots won't fly one. And that is going to end up including the 787, since the fleet is the same as the 777. Can you honestly tell me that UAL brought so much to the merger that half the CAL pilots should give up that expectation?

And: So jumbo takes more FOs... I guess that's a negative (?). Anyway, they're your airplanes, do you think you just get to take the positives of a fleet and dump the negatives on us? It's merger policy. It has changed indeed, and it's not 1986. Prepare for some give and take. Your opener only takes.

 

[General Lee]

We can talk about it, but the 3 people you need to convince are the 3 people on the arbitration panel. They will listen to testimony, review the proposed lists, review documents, and create a new list with an explanation. It can be nerve wracking, but that's called binding arbitration. Remember, these neutrals have nothing to gain but the fee that comes along with the process.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[chppr5]

And: So jumbo takes more FOs... I guess that's a negative (?). Anyway, they're your airplanes, do you think you just get to take the positives of a fleet and dump the negatives on us? It's merger policy. It has changed indeed, and it's not 1986. Prepare for some give and take. Your opener only takes.



Really, and your opener welcomed us with open arms? GMAFB! I'm done wasting time with you. For the first time I agree with GL, but you like to come on here and stir the pot, or as you call it "debate". The title of this thread speaks volumes as to your thoughts about the UAL group. You paint us with a broad brush dating back to 1986, FAL and Roger Hall. I bet 85% of our guys couldn't pick Hall out of a group of 3, but hey, I'll play your game. If we think the way you do, all CAL pilots are scabs, I'm sorry, f*#%ing scabs, because you have 500+ within your ranks. Do us all a favor and stay in one of your garden spot domiciles IAH, EWR or CLE. We'd hate for you to lower yourself to actually have to work with a UAL pilot.

 

[Sandhawk]

OK, you're Mr Merger policy. The stove pipe doesn't work because we have many more F/O's due to the fact we have 3x's the jumbos as CAL....

By Jumbos, do you mean Egos or Widebodies?

Just axin'...

 

[eaglesview]

Leave to Flops to be the guy unable to keep his emotions under control during this process. I will suggest to the IAH CPO all FPA 's have a box of tissues for your use.

 

[Jetjockey]

Well, I think it maybe helps to debate here. Test assumptions, float ideas.

And NONE of that has bearing here, or anywhere unless your on merger committee or one of the 3 arbitrators. Are you hoping to get called in as a special flight info web board specialist?

All this reminds me of sports fans arguing for their favorite team. Arguing about the play, or call, or eventually the outcome of the game. Drink your beer, cheer for the plays, or players, and when the game is over......live with the outcome. As I see it, we are not even finished with the 1st quarter.

GO BEARS!

 

[Crucianpilot]

Many opinions on this thread as we are all entitled to. In the end as has been stated numerous times, the arbitrators will make the decision and we will have to live with it. All of this senseless back and forth bickering serves no purpose other than to give ammunition to both sides in the fight for ultimate seniority. I would expect the final decision to be somewhat like the delta/northwest sli. Everyone remaining within a small percentage of where they are currently at on their respective seniority lists. Of course, it would depend on whether they are in the upper, middle or bottom portion of the list.
Personally, I would be happy just remaining on my current equipment and base. We shall see what happens soon enough. Good luck to us all.

 

[eaglesview]

And NONE of that has bearing here, or anywhere unless your on merger committee or one of the 3 arbitrators. Are you hoping to get called in as a special flight info web board specialist?

All this reminds me of sports fans arguing for their favorite team. Arguing about the play, or call, or eventually the outcome of the game. Drink your beer, cheer for the plays, or players, and when the game is over......live with the outcome. As I see it, we are not even finished with the 1st quarter.

GO BEARS!

Absolutly correct...

Bears Suck.........Go Eagles