Having pioneered the abuse of ALPA merger policy

[Flopgut]

It seems now UAL thinks it's a real good idea to cling to it. Fascinating. Because the last three times UAL pilots needed to consider how it might apply to them and a fellow ALPA pilot group, they have found a way around it. USAir and America West were being "purchased" by UAL (according to UAL MEC), and therefore those pilots weren't entitled to ALPA merger policy. And Frontier. That's where it began; Merger policy was in the equation until UAL ALPA got a good look at the longevity/DOH of the average FAL pilot. They decided real quick merger policy (and especially longevity) was not a good thing for them,,, then. Now? Now they want to be wrapped in ALPA merger policy like a blanket. Now they act like longevity is suppose to be sacred.

What I do not understand is how UAL pilots can carry on like this with absolutely zero humility. Seriously, how do you write an SLI opener and run down the other airline with the same sort of complete BS you once used to declare yourselves brain surgeons and all other airline pilots simple doctors? You do realize that everybody that was there watching you then is still here? These are all the same judges, arbitrators, lawyers, etc. Everybody remembers.

 

[Flopgut]

So blatantly ignorant of their own past behavior, the UAL SLI opener even cites the Continental merger of (what remained of) Frontier multiple times!! Really? After you took the 737s and their Denver base and gave not one of them a job, you think you ought to be able to hold up how they were eventually treated in SLI as an example?

I would like to hear a LUAL pilot tell us all: Why do you deserve merger policy? Why does your longevity matter?

 

[Jetjockey]

Unless your on the merger committee, or one the arbitrators............this thread is futile.

NO one gets a vote, and what you think will have ZERO bearing on the outcome. Whatever the outcome, accept it, move on in life.

 

[TWA Dude]

Seriously, how do you write an SLI opener...

Who cares what their opener is? You need to grow some thicker skin. The arbitrators already have.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Yeah Flopgut.....

Let's use ancient history as an argument (rolling eyes). I mean Orville and Wilbur disputed who would fly first. Can you dig up that story for your argument?

Today's industry is all that matters.

 

[General Lee]

Unfortunately feelings can be hurt by these openers, but your side is going for a homerun. It is up to the MECs to put up good arguments to SUPPORT those assertions, which if they are outlandish, will be dismissed by the arbitrator panel. In other words, if it doesn't pass the basic logic test, it won't get far at all. Each side puts out a list that THEY would like to see, and often it isn't close. It's up to the neutrals, and what the pilots have to do after the award is to abide by it, and don't pull a jackhole move like the crybaby Easties at USair.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Who cares what their opener is? You need to grow some thicker skin. The arbitrators already have.

Thicker skin?! This is coming from a TWA pilot? Look, as bad as you guys think ALPA and AMR treated you, you still ended up with jobs. Your career will continue at the same place your airplanes ended up. Not so for FAL.

Yeah Flopgut.....

Let's use ancient history as an argument (rolling eyes). I mean Orville and Wilbur disputed who would fly first. Can you dig up that story for your argument?

Today's industry is all that matters.

Ok, so the UAL pilots hired in 85, put the FAL pilots on the street in 86, and then flew their airplanes til 02. That's ancient history and not worth consideration? But it's appropriate for UAL to use the FAL/CAL pilot SLI of 87 in their argument? Wow... Btw, examples cited in this SLI go way farther back than the 80s. And there is nothing too ancient.

 

[Flopgut]

Unfortunately feelings can be hurt by these openers, but your side is going for a homerun.

Explain to me how we are going for a homerun? I frankly do not even understand what the exact end play it is that our SLI methodology would produce. CA to CA, FO to FO integration? I think that means we use our total CA and FO numbers, and then integrate separately pilots from the two seats at the two airlines. Seems to me it anchors the top and bottom and puts some play in the middle. Remember the top of the CAL list is senior in all respects to all but a handful of UAL pilots. So the top several hundred should be 90% CAL if we use merger policy.

But UAL wants us fenced off their airplanes and fenced out of their hubs. They want to keep what they feel they brought to the merger, and they want to take what we brought. Typical UAL; They've been that way forever.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Flopgut, this is the last chance for a lot of United pilots to get a career do-over. To date, their bottom third's careers haven't lived up to the "career expectations" they were sold as new hires. They were convinced they were the Gods of aviation, and the thought of a fair integration with the likes of a Continental just sickens them. Their goal is to grab as much seniority as possible out of this and make up for lost time. Can anyone honestly say, that if CAL had 1400 furloughees at the time of the merger that any version of a UAL SLI proposal would include placing furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots?

My version of a fair integration is irrelevant; I am prepared to accept whatever gets arbitrated. Unfortunately, the UAL SLI expectations are so out of whack with fairness and reality they can only be disappointed with the outcome. I don't know if it's true, but is UAL already assessing money to challenge the arbitration? If so, that should tell you something.

 

[General Lee]

Explain to me how we are going for a homerun? I frankly do not even understand what the exact end play it is that our SLI methodology would produce. CA to CA, FO to FO integration? I think that means we use our total CA and FO numbers, and then integrate separately pilots from the two seats at the two airlines. Seems to me it anchors the top and bottom and puts some play in the middle. Remember the top of the CAL list is senior in all respects to all but a handful of UAL pilots. So the top several hundred should be 90% CAL if we use merger policy.

But UAL wants us fenced off their airplanes and fenced out of their hubs. They want to keep what they feel they brought to the merger, and they want to take what we brought. Typical UAL; They've been that way forever.

Wait, wait, what I meant was EACH side has to submit their own list, and EACH side tries to go for a home run. The arbitrators will sift through the BS, and give an award and an explanation. Of course each side wants fences, etc. In the end, I think the 744s and the CAL 787s will be fenced for 5 years, and there will be a 2 year NO BUMP and FLUSH. After all that, watch out. This will be tough to guess how it will end up, but I have heard the bottom CAL 757/767 at EWR was a 2005 hire (?), and there are lots of 2001 to 2003 737 Capts. How do you blend them in with a 1997 UAL hire that can barely hold a line as an FO on a 767?


Bye Bye---General Lee