Having pioneered the abuse of ALPA merger policy

[Flopgut]

What's wrong with a stovepipe CA/CA FO/FO integration? Would the results of that method be a departure from merger policy? You understand what that means and how the list would look?

It seems you might be confused about longevity vs. DOH. They are two different things and there is no problem with our list in this regard. The pilots that you have in question have the longevity that they do because they were involved in integrations. Your group's longevity numbers would look quite a bit different too, if you had always had the commitment to merger policy that you seem to now.

*To have the problem understanding this that you do, only further illustrates how little you know about what merger policy is and results in. Which is kinda crazy, because you act like it's the best thing ever, now.

 

[chppr5]

What's wrong with a stovepipe CA/CA FO/FO integration? Would the results of that method be a departure from merger policy? You understand what that means and how the list would look?

It seems you might be confused about longevity vs. DOH. They are two different things and there is no problem with our list in this regard. The pilots that you have in question have the longevity that they do because they were involved in integrations. Your group's longevity numbers would look quite a bit different too, if you had always had the commitment to merger policy that you seem to now.

*To have the problem understanding this that you do, only further illustrates how little you know about what merger policy is and results in. Which is kinda crazy, because you act like it's the best thing ever, now.

OK, you're Mr Merger policy. The stove pipe doesn't work because we have many more F/O's due to the fact we have 3x's the jumbos as CAL. You have 22 777's, we have 76 747/777's, which mean we have MANY more augmented trips with 3 and 4 crew members, hence more F/O's. ALPA merger policy now includes longevity unlike when USAirways and AmWest merged. I know the difference between longevity and DOH it seems your merger comm may need a refresher course. DOH has everything to do with longevity, you have to have a start point for longevity. DOH with Britt, Bar Harbor and Express Jet is NOT the same as DOH at CAL. AND as your merger comm seems to think, flow back to Express Jet does not count as longevity at CAL! As I said before both sides will argue to represent their pilots. Why bother stirring the pot. We have no say in this. The arbitrators will decide. I guess you just love drama....

 

[Flopgut]

Well, I think it maybe helps to debate here. Test assumptions, float ideas. Honestly, the last exchange we had on here I was trying to gather some inspiration about what UAL brought to the merger. That was a good natured attempt that unfortunately failed.

I'm perfectly comfortable admitting we have fewer true widebody airplanes. But we have far from zero. Widebody CA is a very real career expectation for a big number of CAL pilots (especially widebody pay). If we do something other than stovepipe, at least the entire bottom third, or maybe even half our pilots won't fly one. And that is going to end up including the 787, since the fleet is the same as the 777. Can you honestly tell me that UAL brought so much to the merger that half the CAL pilots should give up that expectation?

And: So jumbo takes more FOs... I guess that's a negative (?). Anyway, they're your airplanes, do you think you just get to take the positives of a fleet and dump the negatives on us? It's merger policy. It has changed indeed, and it's not 1986. Prepare for some give and take. Your opener only takes.

 

[General Lee]

We can talk about it, but the 3 people you need to convince are the 3 people on the arbitration panel. They will listen to testimony, review the proposed lists, review documents, and create a new list with an explanation. It can be nerve wracking, but that's called binding arbitration. Remember, these neutrals have nothing to gain but the fee that comes along with the process.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[chppr5]

And: So jumbo takes more FOs... I guess that's a negative (?). Anyway, they're your airplanes, do you think you just get to take the positives of a fleet and dump the negatives on us? It's merger policy. It has changed indeed, and it's not 1986. Prepare for some give and take. Your opener only takes.



Really, and your opener welcomed us with open arms? GMAFB! I'm done wasting time with you. For the first time I agree with GL, but you like to come on here and stir the pot, or as you call it "debate". The title of this thread speaks volumes as to your thoughts about the UAL group. You paint us with a broad brush dating back to 1986, FAL and Roger Hall. I bet 85% of our guys couldn't pick Hall out of a group of 3, but hey, I'll play your game. If we think the way you do, all CAL pilots are scabs, I'm sorry, f*#%ing scabs, because you have 500+ within your ranks. Do us all a favor and stay in one of your garden spot domiciles IAH, EWR or CLE. We'd hate for you to lower yourself to actually have to work with a UAL pilot.

 

[Sandhawk]

OK, you're Mr Merger policy. The stove pipe doesn't work because we have many more F/O's due to the fact we have 3x's the jumbos as CAL....

By Jumbos, do you mean Egos or Widebodies?

Just axin'...

 

[eaglesview]

Leave to Flops to be the guy unable to keep his emotions under control during this process. I will suggest to the IAH CPO all FPA 's have a box of tissues for your use.

 

[Jetjockey]

Well, I think it maybe helps to debate here. Test assumptions, float ideas.

And NONE of that has bearing here, or anywhere unless your on merger committee or one of the 3 arbitrators. Are you hoping to get called in as a special flight info web board specialist?

All this reminds me of sports fans arguing for their favorite team. Arguing about the play, or call, or eventually the outcome of the game. Drink your beer, cheer for the plays, or players, and when the game is over......live with the outcome. As I see it, we are not even finished with the 1st quarter.

GO BEARS!

 

[Crucianpilot]

Many opinions on this thread as we are all entitled to. In the end as has been stated numerous times, the arbitrators will make the decision and we will have to live with it. All of this senseless back and forth bickering serves no purpose other than to give ammunition to both sides in the fight for ultimate seniority. I would expect the final decision to be somewhat like the delta/northwest sli. Everyone remaining within a small percentage of where they are currently at on their respective seniority lists. Of course, it would depend on whether they are in the upper, middle or bottom portion of the list.
Personally, I would be happy just remaining on my current equipment and base. We shall see what happens soon enough. Good luck to us all.

 

[eaglesview]

And NONE of that has bearing here, or anywhere unless your on merger committee or one of the 3 arbitrators. Are you hoping to get called in as a special flight info web board specialist?

All this reminds me of sports fans arguing for their favorite team. Arguing about the play, or call, or eventually the outcome of the game. Drink your beer, cheer for the plays, or players, and when the game is over......live with the outcome. As I see it, we are not even finished with the 1st quarter.

GO BEARS!

Absolutly correct...

Bears Suck.........Go Eagles

 

[Jetjockey]

Eagles??? HA! Is that washed up Vick still on the team?

 

[eaglesview]

Eagles??? HA! Is that washed up Vick still on the team?

Yup he sure is. It's a bad time to be a Philly sports fan. Eagles suck, Phillies suck, Flyers suck and Sixers are golfing already.

 

[Skyflyin]

Many opinions on this thread as we are all entitled to. In the end as has been stated numerous times, the arbitrators will make the decision and we will have to live with it. All of this senseless back and forth bickering serves no purpose other than to give ammunition to both sides in the fight for ultimate seniority. I would expect the final decision to be somewhat like the delta/northwest sli. Everyone remaining within a small percentage of where they are currently at on their respective seniority lists. Of course, it would depend on whether they are in the upper, middle or bottom portion of the list.
Personally, I would be happy just remaining on my current equipment and base. We shall see what happens soon enough. Good luck to us all.

Well said, although any thoughts/ideas from the gallery are worthless, it's still fun and entertaining to follow along. Especially since, unlike sports teams, the outcome will affect the rest of your career.

What I find interesting is that ALPA put longevity back into the merger policy to try and soothe US Air, but if you look at the practicality of it it runs smack into the face of career expectations especially in this case You cannot give L-UAL credit for longevity without adversely affecting the career expectations of the L-CAL guys and you cannot give the L-CAL guys full credit for their career expectations without ignoring the longevity of the L-UAL guys.

The arbitrators are going to have to choose one or the other, but more than likely will choose a mixture pissing everyone off. I've been enjoying reading the transcripts and I'll have to say I think our (CAL) merger committee has been doing a very good job and it will be interesting to see the UAL merger committee counter next month.

Popcorn ready and fingers crossed.

 

[Jetjockey]

Yup he sure is. It's a bad time to be a Philly sports fan. Eagles suck, Phillies suck, Flyers suck and Sixers are golfing already.

BLACKHAWKS is where it's at my friend. NHL>>>>REAL SPORT!

Back to regularly scheduled UA/CAL pilot bashing...............

 

[Dan Roman]

BLACKHAWKS is where it's at my friend. NHL>>>>REAL SPORT!

Back to regularly scheduled UA/CAL pilot bashing...............

You'd appreciate that HA has an A330 Captain that played for the Penguins for 12 years and also with Gretzky on the LA Kings.

 

[minrest]

Well said, although any thoughts/ideas from the gallery are worthless, it's still fun and entertaining to follow along. Especially since, unlike sports teams, the outcome will affect the rest of your career.

What I find interesting is that ALPA put longevity back into the merger policy to try and soothe US Air, but if you look at the practicality of it it runs smack into the face of career expectations especially in this case You cannot give L-UAL credit for longevity without adversely affecting the career expectations of the L-CAL guys and you cannot give the L-CAL guys full credit for their career expectations without ignoring the longevity of the L-UAL guys.

The arbitrators are going to have to choose one or the other, but more than likely will choose a mixture pissing everyone off. I've been enjoying reading the transcripts and I'll have to say I think our (CAL) merger committee has been doing a very good job and it will be interesting to see the UAL merger committee counter next month.

Popcorn ready and fingers crossed.

I continue to hear that the difference in alpa policy is the addition of Longevity. In reality, the major change was enacting in the new policy was mandating that a jcba must be completed prior to sli. The new policy goes on the state that longevity is one item (out of three) that "must" be "considered" but not be given any particular weight.

I have read the usair/awa ruling and it is apparent that longevity was given serious consideration in creating the list. At the end of the day, the arbitrator decided that, after considering longevity, other factors were of more significance in this particular merger. In dal/nwa, longevity was also "considered." Again, while not required to be considered in the policy, it nonetheless was considered.

The ual/cal sli "must" consider longevity. That does not mean that it must be given any bearing in the final product (just as in usair and delta). Therefore, it would seem that the actual process of sli is really no different than it was in previous mergers.

 

[eaglesview]

I continue to hear that the difference in alpa policy is the addition of Longevity. In reality, the major change was enacting in the new policy was mandating that a jcba must be completed prior to sli. The new policy goes on the state that longevity is one item (out of three) that "must" be "considered" but not be given any particular weight.

I have read the usair/awa ruling and it is apparent that longevity was given serious consideration in creating the list. At the end of the day, the arbitrator decided that, after considering longevity, other factors were of more significance in this particular merger. In dal/nwa, longevity was also "considered." Again, while not required to be considered in the policy, it nonetheless was considered.

The ual/cal sli "must" consider longevity. That does not mean that it must be given any bearing in the final product (just as in usair and delta). Therefore, it would seem that the actual process of sli is really no different than it was in previous mergers.

You must be right....Continentals proposal has the CO pilot hired 9/27/2011 senior to 1,608 ACTIVE (ie NOT INCLUDING FURLOUGHED GUYS) United pilots.... Kind of funny but I guess it's like buying a car....shoot for the moon.

 

[fokker pilot]

Don't forget Air Wisconsin. Unlike Frontier, UAL bought Air Wisconsin and UAL ALPA hosed the pilots !!!

 

[chppr5]

Don't forget Air Wisconsin. Unlike Frontier, UAL bought Air Wisconsin and UAL ALPA hosed the pilots !!!

UAL bought Wisconsin as a feeder. Just like AMR bought Command, Nashville, Metro, just like uSAir bought Henson, PSA, Penn and Suburban. Get over it!

 

[Skyflyin]

You must be right....Continentals proposal has the CO pilot hired 9/27/2011 senior to 1,608 ACTIVE (ie NOT INCLUDING FURLOUGHED GUYS) United pilots.... Kind of funny but I guess it's like buying a car....shoot for the moon.

I haven't seen the proposal yet, but CAL hasn't hired anyone, before this year, since 2008 so we don't have anyone hired in 2011. We had recalls in 2010 and 2011, but they were 2007 and 2008 hires.