Have you ever had a captain (or FO) that makes up his own procedures?

[Donsa320]

Once upon a time we had a senior captain who was the terror of the F/O's. He disliked the company procedures to the point that he would bring his own checklits along on trips for his hapless F/O's to use. Said captain had been a check pilot but had been removed from that status by the company because of his non-standard procedures.

One dark night at DTW this captain attempted a no-flap, no-slat take-off. No after-start or before-take-off checklists had been called for or accomplished. The Central Aural Warning System (CAWS) circuit breaker was open or pulled. This captain took 150 some odd people under a bridge on Interstate 94, inverted. One young girl survived.

DC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

On August 16, 1987, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82 operating as Northwest Airlines Flight 255,[38] bound for Phoenix, Arizona, and Santa Ana, California, crashed on take-off from Metro's 8,500-foot (2,600 m)-long Runway 3 Center (Now Runway 3L). All but one passenger on the aircraft were killed; the lone survivor was a young girl, Cecelia Cichan, who lost both of her parents and her brother. The NTSB determined that the accident resulted from flight crew's failure to deploy the aircraft's flaps prior to take-off, resulting in a lack of necessary lift. The aircraft slammed into an overpass bridge on Interstate 94 just northeast of the departure end of the runway.

 

[Donsa320]

On August 16, 1987, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82 operating as Northwest Airlines Flight 255,[38] bound for Phoenix, Arizona, and Santa Ana, California, crashed on take-off from Metro's 8,500-foot (2,600 m)-long Runway 3 Center (Now Runway 3L). All but one passenger on the aircraft were killed; the lone survivor was a young girl, Cecelia Cichan, who lost both of her parents and her brother. The NTSB determined that the accident resulted from flight crew's failure to deploy the aircraft's flaps prior to take-off, resulting in a lack of necessary lift. The aircraft slammed into an overpass bridge on Interstate 94 just northeast of the departure end of the runway.

As Paul Harvey might say, now you know the rest of the story.

DC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As Paul Harvey might say, now you know the rest of the story.

DC

Actually I like to know more about the CA's attitude.

Any links?

Interesting that many will put ego before people's lives, even their own...

And in aviation organizations, how the leadership and management will over look such attitudes....

 

[Donsa320]

Actually I like to know more about the CA's attitude.

Any links?

Interesting that many will put ego before people's lives, even their own...

And in aviation organizations, how the leadership and management will over look such attitudes....

I guess I'm the link, I was there. He was a commuter, make that a very unhappy commuter, from PHX. Norhwest had just sold our 757's and said captain was bumped back to the MD-80. Lived in a crappy crash-pad hotel while in DTW, PO'd about the mergers (Republic-Air West and then NorthWest) and his schedule, PO'd because PHX had been closed as a crew base, PO'd in general. Miserable to talk to even if he was just signing his flight release.

DC

 

[NEDude]

Supposedly the recent DC-9 taxiing into the Airbus due to loss of brakes was due to a Captain making up his own procedures. Now there is an FO who has to live the rest of his life on O2 due to lung damage.

Source - A retired NWA management pilot.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Do I ever speed?...Yes...But would I speed knowing there's a cop following right behind me ready to bust me? No...Not following the rules when you know there's a fed on the jumpseat watching to make sure that you are following the rules is retarded...If you get in trouble for it, then you deserve it...

...I agree...that is my point...Everyone of the "follow the rules" group pick and choose....Do they follow the rules on the road?

More people would follow the rules if we limited them to the essential stuff...instead of overreacting everytime there is an accident and inacting yet another "procedure"....Common sense and experience go a long way.....Two things that are becoming extinct....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...I agree...that is my point...Everyone of the "follow the rules" group pick and choose....Do they follow the rules on the road?

More people would follow the rules if we limited them to the essential stuff...instead of overreacting everytime there is an accident and inacting yet another "procedure"....Common sense and experience go a long way.....Two things that are becoming extinct....

Don't forget lawsuits.... always in play when common sense and exp don't yeild desired results..

 

[30West]

Now I am pretty new I admit, but as far as I have ever known or read while you are in bottom governing it doesn't matter where you have it in the Min-Max range, it will still be the same result.

That is correct. Blade angle is controlled by the power levers in this scenario.
Most likely lack of understanding of systems on the captain's part would be the obvious explanation.

While the worst thing that could happen in this case would be an embarrassing aborted takeoff due to config warning, it shows a general disregard for procedure.

In my experience, most small procedural deviations that happen daily do not in and of themselves create hazardous situations.
What is dangerous is that over time it will breed a casual attitude that eventually permeates all aspects of the job and ultimately results in catastrophe that the original procedure was designed to prevent.

It always amazes me when administering PC checks how some guys will actually spend more time and energy coming up with their own modified procedures than simply using the ones that they already know.

 

[NCherches]

What would happen??? The same as if both pilots were up there. He would done his mask and select 100 percent....he just wouldn't have to establish crew communication. That is the dumbest rule I have ever heard of....I pull it out and put it on my lap.

I hear it now....The mask, I pull the mask out and put it on my lap.

I think id rather die than put a mask on my face that has been in a bunch of FO's "lap" area.

 

[say again]

I make up my own procedures every flight, but its not my intention!!!!

 

[Kaman]

Technique within the bounds of company manuals and directives is expected...It's called being a pilot and not a robot. I had smoke in the cockpit...Did I take out the mask? Nope...Too friggin busy IMC at night with a green F/O in a 1900. Was asked why? Captain's Emergency authority allowed me to deviate from regs, standards and manuals. It was minor smoke, but continuous... You be the judge and jury if I did the right thing.

 

[Aviatard]

"...minor smoke." ???

And what was the CO concentration?

Sometimes it's what you don't see.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Technique within the bounds of company manuals and directives is expected...It's called being a pilot and not a robot. I had smoke in the cockpit...Did I take out the mask? Nope...Too friggin busy IMC at night with a green F/O in a 1900. Was asked why? Captain's Emergency authority allowed me to deviate from regs, standards and manuals. It was minor smoke, but continuous... You be the judge and jury if I did the right thing.

IMC at night in a 1900 with a green FO and you DIDN'T put on the mask?

Minor can turn into major ohhhh so quickly.

At the LEAST you should have had the FO don it. Smoke in the cockpit can overcome you pretty quickly, especially since you seem to indicate that you werent even aware of the source. You're covered to do as you like in an emergency, as long as it is to done to meet the extent of the emergency. Unless putting that mask on would have inhibited your duty to correct the situation, it wasn't the best course of action.

Sorry, but I vividly recall Critter 592's plea to return to MIA.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

BTW, did you tell the FO to sit still and shut up too? The FO should have been utilized in some constructive manner, unless of course the guy sitting next to you bought some multi in a GIA 1900.

 

[Kaman]

No, we mutually agreed to NOTdon the masks. We had just departed IAD on climb thru 100 when my partner in crime said, "I see smoke"..."Oh yeah, you do...crap!" (smoke was from a "slightly" green F/O CB panel). I took the controls and #1 radio, declared an emergency vectors to 1L LOC. Asked my F/O to notify company and talk to folks...reviewed checklist for an Evac if required...landed, no further incident. The reason I elected not to put on the mask was the amount of smoke...cessation of smoke pretty quickly after recognition and close proximity of the airport. He was a green F/O, but actually a really sharp kid and he's a pilot at CO mainline now after the obligatory 1000 in the left-seat of the mighty Beech. I wasn't cavalier at all, actually more on the conservative side given the smoke was over after the inital short circuit. I wasn't about to continue to BLF at night with questions about my electrical system. So, deciding on caution. We diverted after declaring an Emergency.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Given the circumstances you just described, It sounds like you handled it safely. Kudos.

Your initial lack of details made it sound a bit more alarming! Alas... that is the nature of a message board. Misinterpretation.

 

[skyslug]

Flew with a captain many moons ago on the CRJ who refused to use the "NAV" mode function. He said that flying the plane in "HDG" mode was much more accurate and that he didn't trust the NAV function of the autopilot. "Just use HDG to keep the plane on the line" he would say.

He also espoused that landing with the stall horn on was the way it was supposed to be done...at all times...and that if not done that way YOU were violating procedures and just plain didn't know how to fly.

In addition he also told me that if you fly the Glideslope you will NEVER land in the touchdown zone so it's always good form to transition to/use the VASI/PAPI and get a dot low (3 red one white or all 4 red) to guarantee landing in the touchdown zone...regardless of the visibility/weather.

Interesting fella!

 

[WSurf]

It's gone on 2 pages now.

Just put the mask on, and take it off when the pilot gets back from the sh*tter.

Jeez, was that hard?

Oh Hell No!! You must put a bunch of Hard things in your mouth if you are willing to put that nasty thing over your mouth! Even with smoke and lose of cabin pressure I would still be worrying about that rotten a$$ mask.


I think the Forward outflow value is much better in the old Dash! You can keep as the nasty stuff in your mouth. LOL

 

[WSurf]

...I agree...that is my point...Everyone of the "follow the rules" group pick and choose....Do they follow the rules on the road?

More people would follow the rules if we limited them to the essential stuff...instead of overreacting everytime there is an accident and inacting yet another "procedure"....Common sense and experience go a long way.....Two things that are becoming extinct....

Joe I agree with you. However not everyone can be super pilots like you and I. Since we are the exception to the rule, well... Now rules and procedures have to be made for those that aren't super pilots and can't think on there own.

LOL. Okay, kidding aside. Rally has some good points also and while picking your own prodecures to follow or making your own up might just work and make sense be careful. The day that your prodecure doesn't work how do you explain that to the feds and the company? However if you followed all the procedures to the 'T' you have a leg to stand on.

Do I speed on the highway? (well not now with fuel prices), yes. I set the cruise for 5 over.

Do I taxi fast sometimes. Yes, but not when I get near a place that has a bunch of aircraft or rampers. Just common sense there.

I think we all have done stuff and said, "crap, man I will read that next time."

That which doesn't kill you, makes you stonger. I have learned that the longer I have been a Captain the more important and easier it is to just follow company rules and procedures. The young once Bullet proof guy I was is forever gone.

Rules and procedures are here to protect us and the paxs. Picking what not to use and what to use might be fine your whole career, but that one time you fuk-kit up you won't have two legs to stand on when the feds and company come after you.