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mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
You guys are too much! Somehow going through hardship is going to make me a better pilot. Sounds like your just miffed because thats the route you took. I have had my hardships along the way just like everyone else. Flying crappy planes doesnt make you a better pilot and paying dues to whomever doesnt etither. I went through an ab-initio program and am doing just fine. Like everyone else I learn everyday. In my case it is a second carreer so I gained a lot of my judgement skills prior to the cockpit.
I agree that some of these programs are a farce but others are really good. In fact when in ground school I had many of those dues payer knowking on my door for help with systems etc.
The main difference I have heard between the two routes is ab initio tend to be better at systems, checklists etc to make up for their lack of experience or feel for the plane. So this isnt just opinion I am living it now so give some of us who took a different route a break!!!:D
 
Originally posted by mesajock I agree that some of these programs are a farce but others are really good. In fact when in ground school I had many of those dues payer knowking on my door for help with systems etc.
The main difference I have heard between the two routes is ab initio tend to be better at systems, checklists etc to make up for their lack of experience or feel for the plane. So this isnt just opinion I am living it now so give some of us who took a different route a break!!!:D [/B]

Sounds defensive? Well as a checkairman I can tell you the ONE thing that gives someone an adwantage. Experience, good old fashion sitting in the cockpit and pushing buttons and watching the world go by. And good experience too, sorry but every time someone told me that all their flying was in phoenix that would be a sign. No it wasnt everyone but the overwelming majority of pilots from fair weather schools, I would have their cherries when it came to flying in a cloud. Its not that they were better or worse they just needed to see it, and thats what makes someone qualified is being able to handle situations that arrive. I might also add that as our time minimums decreased the time it took to complete ioe increased. As far as upgrades went. Only about 50% got sign offs on the first ioe trip simply because they did not have a lot of experience as f/o. It was not uncommon for someone to be hired with 8-900 hours in NOV, spend 3 months in training. Get online and have a line by spring. Spend the summer flying then go for an upgrade in NOV DEC of the flowing year. This meant they never really saw a New England winter. Pretty steep learning curve. Myself I upgraded when i was ready, not when senority allowed, and I think I was a better captain for it.
 
well I must have hit new thread no matter. It was not as defensive as it may have appeared on its face. It just gets tiresome being judged because you didnt do it the way other did and I'm not speaking for pay for training.
 
mesajock, i agree with you.

Being a professional pilot is a second career for me as well. After talking to several pilots i decided to go the Ab-Initio route. Since I left an established career in aircraft manufacturing and maintenance and being on the other side of 30 years old, I don't think spending 1200 hrs. instructing in a C172 is the best way to advance my career.

I am tired of hearing all these people say that you must pay your dues by instructing just to be worthy of a cockpit seat on an airliner. Having quality training and good decision making skills is much more important than 1200 hrs. in the traffic pattern.

If people don't agree with the Ab-Initio idea why have so many foreign carriers been using it for years? If you stop in at FlightSafety Academy, the place is full of guys (and ladies) who will go from Seminoles and Senecas to A319 and A320 cockpits with less than 500 hrs. TT for many foreign carriers.

BTW- FlightSafety and ASA have restarted their bridge program for FSI grads, it's on their web site.
 
I don't think spending 1200 hrs. instructing in a C172 is the best way to advance my career.

And that's the primary difference between your attitude and others'. You are more concerned with advancing your career than gaining good experience. I imagine that you would also pick up open time if your company had pilots on furlough because it's the best way to advance your career.

Having quality training and good decision making skills is much more important than 1200 hrs. in the traffic pattern.

First of all, charactarizing flight instruction as such demonstrates a lack of understanding of what instructors do. Secondly, 1200 hours giving instruction ina 172 IS better experience than 300 hours in a controlled training environment where there is an INSTRUCTOR there to save your butt. Even if every one of the hours is in the pattern

If people don't agree with the Ab-Initio idea why have so many foreign carriers been using it for years

Comparing foreign programs to the ab-initio programs here is comparing apples to chainsaws. Besides that, I'll trust my life to a 1200 hour flight instructor instead of a 300 hour german ab-initio pilot any day. Anyone who's shared airspace with Lufthansa at Stanfield knows what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that you all are incapable, or that you are bad pilots. But as the check airman above noted, experience, particularly as PIC where you have to actually make decisions, is what makes a pilot. You can't get this by taking a class in CRM, or by time in a simulator where if you make a bad decision, the screen turns red and you walk out the back. Nor can you get this experience from flying a baron with an instructor who will correct all your bad decsions.

Maybe you did the best thing for your career, but those who are out there building experience will be better pilots than you are. Your extensive knowledge of checklists and air conditioning systems just doesn't make up for your lack of experience.
 
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Hmmmmmmmmm

Bridge dude-300hrs, Outstanding knowledge of afternoon thundershowers in florida and the seabreeze effect. knows a piper seminole by the back of his hand.

135 Frieght Dog-1500hrs in the northeast during winter going into large airports single pilot.

THE CHOICE IS A NO BRAINER

The fact is your basic attitude instrument skills will not be as well developed and you will not be as good at decision making. Yes these are important skills even for an airbus.

However I will say taking a bridge guy and sticking him in a 1900 with a good captain is a graet way to train FUTURE crj drivers.
 
FlyinBrian said:


I imagine that you would also pick up open time if your company had pilots on furlough because it's the best way to advance your career.


Sorry but the answer to that is no, i've had a union card for over 10 years. I've been on strike and been laid-off, have you?

.[/B][/QUOTE]
Your extensive knowledge of checklists and air conditioning systems just doesn't make up for your lack of experience. [/B][/QUOTE]

Speaking with several training captains, the hardest area for new hires is aircraft systems. When there is an inflight emergency don't you went to be with someone who is knowledgeable about systems?

My comment about 1200 hrs. in the pattern was directed at those who get their CFI just to reach 1200 or whatever they feel they need to be competative for an airline job. Those guys are not having some great learning experience. I have alot of respect for the people that get all their instructor ratings and treat it as a profession, but I have a big problem with the 250 hr. CFI teaching people how to fly. If i'm learning from someone I want it to be someone with extensive knowledge on the subject matter. I would much rather have a retired airline captain as my instructor rather than a 20something timebuilder.

When I eventually retire from wherever I end up finishing my career I intend to get my CFI,CFII and MEI. At that point I hope to share what I learned along the way, while staying in the air after retirement. How many others plan to do this?
 
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MAPD

I'm somewhat from the traditional school. Get your CFI, build some hours to reach certain thresholds, learn tons about aviation along the way, and climb the ladder at each threshold. However, I must take the side of MAPD, primarily because I taught there for a time and saw it work.

Bear in mind, though, that not every MAPD grad gets hired. Every person who signs up is given the same chance to excel at MAPD. Not everyone does. It's a very tough and challenging training environment. Some people wash out because they can't handle Mesa's brand of flight training. I had one such student. For others, the opportunity to interview with Mesa is their's to lose. I had one such student like that, too.

MAPD grads who jump through all the myriad hoops might get to cut in line ahead of others for an interview, but once they're there, they're on their own. They're still competing with more experienced and diverse applicants. They have to shine. They are virtually ready to go on line after graduation, but not quite. They still have to go to ground school. They are very much ahead of a street hire because they've been learning Mesa procedures from Day One and have had Beech 1900 ground school. But, I've heard of MAPD grads who wash out of ground school while flight instructors and 135 types who've never had airline ground school do just fine.

Of course, MAPD grads learn lots after they get past IOE and go on the line. But, doesn't everyone? It's a different kind of learning than flight instructing.

You can't beat flight instructing for really pounding the basic principles of aviation into your head. You can't beat it at all for learning human relations skills (read that to mean CRM). But, MAPD works, too.
 
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Boobysamed says it all

Thank you sir! You said everything I was trying to say and did it so elequantly.
You probably guessed by the moniker I went through MAPD. I cant say I loved every minute of it...about half the time I had to bite my tounge because of the nonsense we had to go through. I will give this I have no idea what it is like to be a CFI/II nor do I really want to know. Having said that most CFI/II etc. dont have a clue about the training we go through so listen the bobbysamd. He is one of the few who has seen both sides.
PS I agree about putting us/them in the 1900, however there are hundreds of these folks in the jets right know who are doing just fine!
 
I've been on strike and been laid-off, have you?
Haven't been on strike, my company can't... But I have been laid off. I'm sitting in my cubicle right now actually. I don't differentiate much between ab-initio programs and PFT. You're selling out people with more experience because you can afford it. Selling others out to get ahead is the same to me all the way around. From flight instructors who work for free, to people can afford to buy their way into a job.
When there is an inflight emergency don't you went to be with someone who is knowledgeable about systems?
Yes, I also want that person to have experience dealing with inflight emergencies. A 1200 hr. CFI who gets through ground school will have both. An ab-initio probably will not.

I have a big problem with the 250 hr. CFI teaching people how to fly
So a 250 hour pilot isn't qualified to be PIC of a 172 and teach Private Pilot maneuvers, but a 500 hour pilot is qualified to PIC a CRJ to minimums if the captain is incapacitated?
I would much rather have a retired airline captain as my instructor rather than a 20something timebuilder.
And I would rather have an experienced pilot fly my family members to minimus with one engine than a 20something timebuilder

I have often though of being a DE as a retirement career. I think many pilots think of going back to instruction as retirees actually. Still, with the exception of 135 single pilot, flight instructing is about the best experience you can get prior to going to the airlines
 
All your points are noted. Like all things there are exceptions. Now enlighten me as to what I am (and my fellow ab-initios) are to do to be better pilots with our limited experience. I've got the attitude covered. I'm being serious here..........
 
Mesajock,

I am of the opinion that if you want to work in aviation, get a job commensurate with the level of experience that you have. Get a 135 job or an instructor job. Whatever you get, take it seriously and do it the best that you can. I think you should start your flying career and cut your teeth where only your life or maybe the life of one passenger (who very likely knows what he's getting into) are at stake.

To jump straight into lugging around 50 passengers when you haven't saved yourself and your airplane from a few near-catastrophes as an instructor, or flying it to mins all day at a 135 operation is asking for trouble.

An FO doesn't just fill a seat. He should be able to fly the plane with competence and confidence while the captain is doing other duties, or is incapacitated.

Ab-initio programs are profit driven, and not safety driven. To me, they are a shortcut that puts richer, less qualified folks in the cockpit. I try to get irritated with the programs instead of the pilots, but sometimes I mis-direct my frustration. Particularly when my instructing experience gets charactarizeds as "1200 hours in the pattern" by someone who is trying to take a shortcut to a job.
 
Well if nothing else I appreciate your time. Of course you realize I'm not going to back track out of the 1900 to fly freight etc. As for rich... not here, my student loans would make a decent house payment! As for qaulified well thats a matter of opinion and we should probably agree to disagree but, I would put my systems knowlege against anyone (with my amount of time in type). About the only thing we have in common is weve been furloughed and are ready to get back to it.
 
Flychicaga,

You have a good point in that we've been focusing on time a little too much. It has been said on these boards a million times that experience counts more than time. That is true. My gripe about ab-initio problems really isn't the number of hours, but the lack of experience. 800 hours of solid instructing experience is better than 1200 hours of flying to lunch in severe clear VFR.

Unfortunately, it is difficulty for hiring departments to evaluate true experience, so time tends to sub in in the absense of a better indicator. Two people with 900 dual given could have vastly different experience if one of them took it as a serious job, and the other just sat in the seat while his students built his time for him. But how is a hirinig department to know this?
 
FlyinBrian said:

So a 250 hour pilot isn't qualified to be PIC of a 172 and teach Private Pilot maneuvers, but a 500 hour pilot is qualified to PIC a CRJ to minimums if the captain is incapacitated?

And I would rather have an experienced pilot fly my family members to minimus with one engine than a 20something timebuilder
FlyinBrian said:



If I remember correctly, flying a single engine approach down to minimums was part of my FAR 121.441 SIC check ride.

I never said a 500 hr. pilot was qualified to be a CRJ PIC, that would be ridiculous. However, a 500 hr. pilot with the right training can be an effictive SIC, hence the term CREW. If someone can make it through the interview, company ground school, sim sessions, 121.441 ride and IOE than I think they have demonstrated the ability to handle emergencies and stressful situations.
 
Brian, I have found that my time as a CFI (CFI-AIME) and as a check airman have kept me sharp. Students and checkee's do the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**est things. Like pulling the mixture instead of the throttle when turning downwind. Or pulling the the dragchute in flight in a Lear. Both have happened to me plus other interesting things. So a CFI, while he doesn't fly all too much, has to keep mentally flying the aircraft, to keep himself and his student out of trouble. And it is sharpness and being to think his/her way out of problems that will help him/her in their future career.

Of course instructors will get burned out after a point in time. My suggestion is to get more advanced ratings. MEI and II will give you a wider range of students and increase your range of experience.

As for flight time. I have flown with F/O's that had 400 hours and found them to be excellent pilots. I have also flown with Ad-Initio grads, some good, some bad. The good ones always seemed to be the ones that had some good experience but needed a little help out of a rut. The bad ones always seemed to be the ones that were cutting career corners. The bads ones generally either learned or didn't make past probation.

Experience is everything. UAL DC-10 accident at Sioux City, IA and the JAL 747 accident had basicly the same cause. But dramaticly different results. The reason was the experience of the crewmembers. Think about that.
 
VGerect...

VG, look at Rick1128's post and try to realize that pilots are
just people! Some people suck and bitch all the time about
life, others are great at what they do and are humble...which
one would you like to be?

It does not matter how you get the job, just that when you get
it you do your best to be a proficient and safe pilot so everyone
gets home OK. Good Luck and please shut the hell up!

JP
 
Can't We All Just Get Along?!!!!!!!!
 
Get over it.

The reality is the programs exist and proven to produce quality line pilots. Pilots who put a value on time over money. Two years ab-initio versus three instructing. What is that year worth to you?

The same argument happens on line. Should a f-16 driver with 2000 hours (military time) get a job before a 5000 hour Dash CA?
It does not matter, because most of the time they do. While your on furlough learn to get over your bitterness. I am not sure if you are Mesa furlough, but if you are... It is very likely your first CA will be a MAPD grad.
 
paid for training

mesajock........what do i need to do to be better.....


no one has covered this topic...there is no substitute for time in type....the NTSB data has always supported this....i think the real eye opener at this level is the first type rating and upgrade.....i saw an article two years...it referred to all these mesa guys taking a upgrade bid before they had 1000 hours in type ..high failure rate...my first type was the hardest thing i've ever done... some fos think it's a rubber stamp...most check airman don't like that cockiness that shows up the first day of sim...so the real question is .... are you ready for the captain seat when you can hold a bid ..or is it a race up the ladder.... good luck to you!
 
mesajock said:
All your points are noted. Like all things there are exceptions. Now enlighten me as to what I am (and my fellow ab-initios) are to do to be better pilots with our limited experience. I've got the attitude covered. I'm being serious here..........


Your already on your way, your asking, and therefore learning. Its amazing how much knowledge can be poured, sucked, osmosed,what have you.....into an open mind. Listen to your captains. You will find ones that teach you the world and ones who teach you how not to be a captain. Sometimes I think the finest captain I ever had was the one who said very little. I learned volumes from him. When he did speak I knew it too be of importance. Other captains who would try to impress F/O of their knowledge of everything in the world............well the more someone talks the less they sometimes say. But you learn from them as well. I learned that I didn't want to be that type of captain. I would never sit in a cockpit and start Quizing a f/o. Anyway good luck to you.
 
Now that all that has been said and read, here's my 2 bits.....
Take it from me, 3000+ hrs dual given from 1 airplane FBO's to Lufthansa flight training school and one of the premier American ab-initio schools and flying as a Captain for one of the most reputable national airlines. Now at 5000 hrs. Not blowing my own horn here, just letting people know I'm not someone who does not know what I'm talking about. Aaaaaaaaannnnnywaaaaayyyyy, the first thing I have to say is to FlyinBrian. The problem at TFD is not Lufthansa. It is our own darn people. For one thing, EVERY LFT Bonanza at TFD has a red-blooded AMERICAN CFI. This CFI was hired with AT LEAST 1500 hrs TT, 1000 hrs dual given of which 500 was instrument dual given. I know this because I was a CFI at LFT for years. And the LFT planes start the communications process at least 10 miles from TFD. It is the Pan Am's and Westwinds that come in at 3500 feet and either don't talk at all or make their intentions known 2 miles prior to the VOR. I used to think the same way you did about ab-initio and the LFT students. But after seeing how wrong I was I come to this conclusion: I would sooner sit in the back of that A320 with Lufthansa and their 300 hour F/O than I would in a plane of our own with a 1000 US pilot who only flew around PHX for 4 years looking at traffic. But ab-initio is not the problem I have with all of this. It is the quality of the ab-initio being conducted. I will not say any names, but the ab-initio for USA schools is generally weak. Americans, I'm sorry to say, are a soft people. And I have seen pilots pass training programs or kept afloat in U.S. schools that LFT would have thrown away. We don't want to hurt anyones little feelings here in the USA. Look at this board--it's loaded. Someone asks for advice, and if someone gives them a fatherly talking-to, the person starts whining about being "insulted". And whether I like it or not, Western Europe has a better safety record than us (yes, this has been compared by flight hours). So ab-initio is totally dependent on WHO is conducting it.
Second, is to all who take a hard stance on the ab-initio stance. There is no yes or no. I have flown with ERAU grads plenty of times. Generally, they are good pilots but they have egos that can't fit in the cockpit. But most of the other ab-initio products are weak pilots because the kept getting what they WANTED in training instead of what they NEEDED in training. They paid a lot of money and so all they had to do was bellyache about something and the school would give in. After all, this is not a pilot being trained, it is a CUSTOMER.
How many of us had a CFI who yelled at us because we kept making the same mistake that had potential to be deadly? We were told over and over again, but did not listen. But man, when the CFI got mad, we learned. Today, it is "Waaah, my CFI hurt my feelings. I want a new CFI". True, yelling is bad technique, but SOMETIMES it is the only way to get through to a student. In my years of being a CFI, sometimes I had to do that. None of my students ever asked for a CFI change, and only one ever failed a checkride. 9 years and 3000+ hours of dual given, something must have been done right.
And so it is experience. It is this reason that I have to say that what some people call "sitting there" in that 172 is better prep than going to a marginal ab-initio school. Being a CFI is not about "paying dues". It is a great way to get valuable experience. Given the choice, I would rather have the 1200 hour CFI from PHX than a 6-800 hour ab-initio product, unless I knew that the ab-initio school was as hardcore as the "bad" Lufthansa school. The bottom line is to go through this aviation career with ears open and mouth closed. It has worked for me.......
Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open mouth and prove it!
Y'all be safe
Terry
 
Awesome post Terry. I was picking on Lufthansa, and to be honest, their procedures were right on, but their communication left something to be desired.

I have a few friends that work at a local ab-initio pilot program, and your assesment is right on. One of them is a very good instructor, but has had to talk with the chief pilot because a student of his had his feelings hurt. Students there swap instructors like trading cards.

The foreign ab-initio programs are much better, hence my "comparing apples to chainsaws" comment.
 
Brian,
Of course their radio leaves something desired---they're German...."Goodyear Tow-ah. BunOnzAH one FIVE six fIVE ALRPha...."
Yep.
BTW, I think I know which of the local schools you are talking about....but I won't say.
Anyway, the picture of Lumberg is great.....awesome movie. I know a couple folks out here who learned English by watching that movie over and again. Hey, I'll talk to you later.
Fly safe
Terry
 
Hard-core ab initio

I agree with Brian, good post from Terry, above.

He's right. So many U.S. flight students expect and demand to be coddled. The moment you put your foot down the least little bit they run to the Chief Pilot and whine for an instructor change. On the other hand, European flight students appreciate a tough (but fair) approach to training.

I had an American student at FSI who flew with me once. Next thing I knew, he had requested an instructor change. I called and asked him why. He said that I was the most focused flight instructor he ever met, but we had not "bonded" (??!!??). I guess he didn't like it when I pushed him. A week or so later, I had another student at FSI who asked for another instructor for similar reasons. I came from ERAU, where in 2½ years maybe one student did not want to work with me - and this student did not enjoy the best reputation at the time.

Then, I started working with Italian airline students at FSI. My first two signoffs in that program had requested me to be their instructor. I finished Private Multi and Commercial-Multi-Instrument for these students, and the same ratings for two more crews. We got along great and I felt my efforts were appreciated.

MAPD is as close to ab initio as it gets for an American airline. Don't kid yourself about it being easy and the students being soft. Mesajock understated it when he said the Mesa students have to put up with a lot of nonsense. Take it from me, it went beyond nonsense, sometimes. I remember clearly from nine years ago how students lined up before 7 a.m. every day to schedule flights and instructors. How there was that long piece of butcher paper stretched across the wall documenting student progress, and how students stressed to meet deadlines (and pushed their instructors inordinately to meet those deadlines). I guarantee that your average flight student wouldn't put up with it.

In any event, you get out what you put in to flight training. Just a little more food for thought.
 
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Villiams-Gatevay Towah! Dis is da Looftansha 1565Alfuh..... Get out of zee vay, Vee ahhr SHNOWLL inbound!










Peace and Chicken Grease
 
Experience and pay

Let me add another aspect to this.

How much income does a 800 hr 1900 FO make?

How much does a 757 FO make?

Alot of us complain that we dont make alot of money, I know I dont make alot. But I am willing to work for the wage that Piedmont is offering so I can get the experience I need, and that is alot more than what a 1900 FO makes .

I am willing to work for my career and climb the ladder. But how are we to ever get more money for the job that we do if companies keep hiring people in for less than Burgerking wages, it aint going to happen.

We as regional pilots will keep getting sh!t pay, while the mainline bag thrower makes 2 times what we make while we are flying airplanes around.

I think it goes alot deeper than just hiring an inexperienced pilot, it has't to do with money, plain and simple. IF a 1900 FO position started pay at 50K a year, what do you think the average total time would be for new hires, and what do you think the minumums for the job would be?

Back to the original discussion, I dont think the place for an 800 hr pilot with 30hrs instrument and half of that time is under the hood in sunny FL, is at the controls of any high performance airplane with 19-50 people in the back. But, if these people are getting through interviews, than we are all waisting our time discussing it.

Im not knocking you low timers, I was there, and in alot of aspects I am still there. Alot of people dont like to see people jump in line, whether it is at the movies or in a career.

I remember back in 96, a good friend went to a regional, he paid his 10K and he was off to indoc with all his 700 hrs, I was flying freight with alot more time than that making sh!t for pay but loving my job and gaining real world experience.

At Piedmont we have some low timers, I dont hear alot of complaints about them. Infact I hear they do allright. What does it mean, I'm not really sure, maybe it means they had some pretty good training.

5 or 6 years ago, I was real quick to judge, but that was when PFT was rampid, I was hualing boxes sleeping in FBO's while people had there parents write them a check for 10K and off they went.

What is the difference between now and the early 60's when you had 200 hour pilots in the right seat of Convairs, Martins, DC-3's?

So, where does that leave us now?
 
There is no profession (perhaps with the exception of enterprenuers) where money can advance one's career and drive a wedge between the "silver spoons" and the "school of hard knocks."

This isn't a career for poor folks. Sad but true. I CFI'd for many years while kids who started after me got to the regionals before me simply because Daddy had money. You will not find this in law, medicine ... (assuming one has the financial wherewithal to make it into law/medicial school.)

We are our own worst enemies.
:mad:
 

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