Hardship

[buzzfly]

Get over it.

The reality is the programs exist and proven to produce quality line pilots. Pilots who put a value on time over money. Two years ab-initio versus three instructing. What is that year worth to you?

The same argument happens on line. Should a f-16 driver with 2000 hours (military time) get a job before a 5000 hour Dash CA?
It does not matter, because most of the time they do. While your on furlough learn to get over your bitterness. I am not sure if you are Mesa furlough, but if you are... It is very likely your first CA will be a MAPD grad.

 

[climbhappy]

paid for training

mesajock........what do i need to do to be better.....


no one has covered this topic...there is no substitute for time in type....the NTSB data has always supported this....i think the real eye opener at this level is the first type rating and upgrade.....i saw an article two years...it referred to all these mesa guys taking a upgrade bid before they had 1000 hours in type ..high failure rate...my first type was the hardest thing i've ever done... some fos think it's a rubber stamp...most check airman don't like that cockiness that shows up the first day of sim...so the real question is .... are you ready for the captain seat when you can hold a bid ..or is it a race up the ladder.... good luck to you!

 

[mckpickle]

All your points are noted. Like all things there are exceptions. Now enlighten me as to what I am (and my fellow ab-initios) are to do to be better pilots with our limited experience. I've got the attitude covered. I'm being serious here..........

Your already on your way, your asking, and therefore learning. Its amazing how much knowledge can be poured, sucked, osmosed,what have you.....into an open mind. Listen to your captains. You will find ones that teach you the world and ones who teach you how not to be a captain. Sometimes I think the finest captain I ever had was the one who said very little. I learned volumes from him. When he did speak I knew it too be of importance. Other captains who would try to impress F/O of their knowledge of everything in the world............well the more someone talks the less they sometimes say. But you learn from them as well. I learned that I didn't want to be that type of captain. I would never sit in a cockpit and start Quizing a f/o. Anyway good luck to you.

 

[acaTerry]

Now that all that has been said and read, here's my 2 bits.....
Take it from me, 3000+ hrs dual given from 1 airplane FBO's to Lufthansa flight training school and one of the premier American ab-initio schools and flying as a Captain for one of the most reputable national airlines. Now at 5000 hrs. Not blowing my own horn here, just letting people know I'm not someone who does not know what I'm talking about. Aaaaaaaaannnnnywaaaaayyyyy, the first thing I have to say is to FlyinBrian. The problem at TFD is not Lufthansa. It is our own darn people. For one thing, EVERY LFT Bonanza at TFD has a red-blooded AMERICAN CFI. This CFI was hired with AT LEAST 1500 hrs TT, 1000 hrs dual given of which 500 was instrument dual given. I know this because I was a CFI at LFT for years. And the LFT planes start the communications process at least 10 miles from TFD. It is the Pan Am's and Westwinds that come in at 3500 feet and either don't talk at all or make their intentions known 2 miles prior to the VOR. I used to think the same way you did about ab-initio and the LFT students. But after seeing how wrong I was I come to this conclusion: I would sooner sit in the back of that A320 with Lufthansa and their 300 hour F/O than I would in a plane of our own with a 1000 US pilot who only flew around PHX for 4 years looking at traffic. But ab-initio is not the problem I have with all of this. It is the quality of the ab-initio being conducted. I will not say any names, but the ab-initio for USA schools is generally weak. Americans, I'm sorry to say, are a soft people. And I have seen pilots pass training programs or kept afloat in U.S. schools that LFT would have thrown away. We don't want to hurt anyones little feelings here in the USA. Look at this board--it's loaded. Someone asks for advice, and if someone gives them a fatherly talking-to, the person starts whining about being "insulted". And whether I like it or not, Western Europe has a better safety record than us (yes, this has been compared by flight hours). So ab-initio is totally dependent on WHO is conducting it.
Second, is to all who take a hard stance on the ab-initio stance. There is no yes or no. I have flown with ERAU grads plenty of times. Generally, they are good pilots but they have egos that can't fit in the cockpit. But most of the other ab-initio products are weak pilots because the kept getting what they WANTED in training instead of what they NEEDED in training. They paid a lot of money and so all they had to do was bellyache about something and the school would give in. After all, this is not a pilot being trained, it is a CUSTOMER.
How many of us had a CFI who yelled at us because we kept making the same mistake that had potential to be deadly? We were told over and over again, but did not listen. But man, when the CFI got mad, we learned. Today, it is "Waaah, my CFI hurt my feelings. I want a new CFI". True, yelling is bad technique, but SOMETIMES it is the only way to get through to a student. In my years of being a CFI, sometimes I had to do that. None of my students ever asked for a CFI change, and only one ever failed a checkride. 9 years and 3000+ hours of dual given, something must have been done right.
And so it is experience. It is this reason that I have to say that what some people call "sitting there" in that 172 is better prep than going to a marginal ab-initio school. Being a CFI is not about "paying dues". It is a great way to get valuable experience. Given the choice, I would rather have the 1200 hour CFI from PHX than a 6-800 hour ab-initio product, unless I knew that the ab-initio school was as hardcore as the "bad" Lufthansa school. The bottom line is to go through this aviation career with ears open and mouth closed. It has worked for me.......
Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open mouth and prove it!
Y'all be safe
Terry

 

[FlyinBrian]

Awesome post Terry. I was picking on Lufthansa, and to be honest, their procedures were right on, but their communication left something to be desired.

I have a few friends that work at a local ab-initio pilot program, and your assesment is right on. One of them is a very good instructor, but has had to talk with the chief pilot because a student of his had his feelings hurt. Students there swap instructors like trading cards.

The foreign ab-initio programs are much better, hence my "comparing apples to chainsaws" comment.

 

[acaTerry]

Brian,
Of course their radio leaves something desired---they're German...."Goodyear Tow-ah. BunOnzAH one FIVE six fIVE ALRPha...."
Yep.
BTW, I think I know which of the local schools you are talking about....but I won't say.
Anyway, the picture of Lumberg is great.....awesome movie. I know a couple folks out here who learned English by watching that movie over and again. Hey, I'll talk to you later.
Fly safe
Terry

 

[bobbysamd]

Hard-core ab initio

I agree with Brian, good post from Terry, above.

He's right. So many U.S. flight students expect and demand to be coddled. The moment you put your foot down the least little bit they run to the Chief Pilot and whine for an instructor change. On the other hand, European flight students appreciate a tough (but fair) approach to training.

I had an American student at FSI who flew with me once. Next thing I knew, he had requested an instructor change. I called and asked him why. He said that I was the most focused flight instructor he ever met, but we had not "bonded" (??!!??). I guess he didn't like it when I pushed him. A week or so later, I had another student at FSI who asked for another instructor for similar reasons. I came from ERAU, where in 2½ years maybe one student did not want to work with me - and this student did not enjoy the best reputation at the time.

Then, I started working with Italian airline students at FSI. My first two signoffs in that program had requested me to be their instructor. I finished Private Multi and Commercial-Multi-Instrument for these students, and the same ratings for two more crews. We got along great and I felt my efforts were appreciated.

MAPD is as close to ab initio as it gets for an American airline. Don't kid yourself about it being easy and the students being soft. Mesajock understated it when he said the Mesa students have to put up with a lot of nonsense. Take it from me, it went beyond nonsense, sometimes. I remember clearly from nine years ago how students lined up before 7 a.m. every day to schedule flights and instructors. How there was that long piece of butcher paper stretched across the wall documenting student progress, and how students stressed to meet deadlines (and pushed their instructors inordinately to meet those deadlines). I guarantee that your average flight student wouldn't put up with it.

In any event, you get out what you put in to flight training. Just a little more food for thought.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Villiams-Gatevay Towah! Dis is da Looftansha 1565Alfuh..... Get out of zee vay, Vee ahhr SHNOWLL inbound!










Peace and Chicken Grease

 

[LR25]

Experience and pay

Let me add another aspect to this.

How much income does a 800 hr 1900 FO make?

How much does a 757 FO make?

Alot of us complain that we dont make alot of money, I know I dont make alot. But I am willing to work for the wage that Piedmont is offering so I can get the experience I need, and that is alot more than what a 1900 FO makes .

I am willing to work for my career and climb the ladder. But how are we to ever get more money for the job that we do if companies keep hiring people in for less than Burgerking wages, it aint going to happen.

We as regional pilots will keep getting sh!t pay, while the mainline bag thrower makes 2 times what we make while we are flying airplanes around.

I think it goes alot deeper than just hiring an inexperienced pilot, it has't to do with money, plain and simple. IF a 1900 FO position started pay at 50K a year, what do you think the average total time would be for new hires, and what do you think the minumums for the job would be?

Back to the original discussion, I dont think the place for an 800 hr pilot with 30hrs instrument and half of that time is under the hood in sunny FL, is at the controls of any high performance airplane with 19-50 people in the back. But, if these people are getting through interviews, than we are all waisting our time discussing it.

Im not knocking you low timers, I was there, and in alot of aspects I am still there. Alot of people dont like to see people jump in line, whether it is at the movies or in a career.

I remember back in 96, a good friend went to a regional, he paid his 10K and he was off to indoc with all his 700 hrs, I was flying freight with alot more time than that making sh!t for pay but loving my job and gaining real world experience.

At Piedmont we have some low timers, I dont hear alot of complaints about them. Infact I hear they do allright. What does it mean, I'm not really sure, maybe it means they had some pretty good training.

5 or 6 years ago, I was real quick to judge, but that was when PFT was rampid, I was hualing boxes sleeping in FBO's while people had there parents write them a check for 10K and off they went.

What is the difference between now and the early 60's when you had 200 hour pilots in the right seat of Convairs, Martins, DC-3's?

So, where does that leave us now?

 

[DarnNearaJet]

There is no profession (perhaps with the exception of enterprenuers) where money can advance one's career and drive a wedge between the "silver spoons" and the "school of hard knocks."

This isn't a career for poor folks. Sad but true. I CFI'd for many years while kids who started after me got to the regionals before me simply because Daddy had money. You will not find this in law, medicine ... (assuming one has the financial wherewithal to make it into law/medicial school.)

We are our own worst enemies.

 

[Garbageman]

There are many valid points on this subject. I would like to point out that the one factor that nobody has mentioned has the total control over the entire issue...the companies doing the hiring. We could argue these issues about experience all day, but the bottom line is that the airlines drive the market. That gives all of us pilots (low-timers and high-timers) a common ground. We pilots need to stay focused on safe and efficient piloting. After all, that is all we have the ability to control.

Respect your fellow pilots from private to ATP!

 

[jetdriven]

i saw an article two years...it referred to all these mesa guys taking a upgrade bid before they had 1000 hours in type ..high failure rate...my first type was the hardest thing i've ever done... some fos think it's a rubber stamp...most check airman don't like that cockiness that shows up the first day of sim...so the real question is .... are you ready for the captain seat when you can hold a bid ..or is it a race up the ladder....

I upgraded at mesa with 275 hours in the beech. WHat made the difference?? Hauling freight single-pilot IFR down to 200-1/2 in a beat-up C-401A with no HSI, heading bug, or even digital radios for that matter. You cant buy experience!

 

[climbhappy]

experience versus ab init

jetdriven....... you are right.. I flew freight in a 63 aztec b, it had decent radios.. at least a kx155 with g/s. question... what role , if any do you think time in type plays in truly defining one skill as a PIC. personally, not that I could have held a bid at 275, I know I wasn't ready to upgrade. so we're all different, and in sum you have got to be true to yourself

 

[Capt Caveman]

Hey Mesajock,

I also went MAPD. I am a CRJ captain. I'm in the top 20% on the Mesa seniority list. I know I sound like I'm bragging, but Im not trying too. I would like to let you know something, though. You sound like a right seat captain.

I think your attitude sucks. How dare you come on this board and start smack with people who paid dues just like you did to get where they are.

Its kinda a respect thing. Is this the respect you will show me? Because if you do, your days will be short at Mesa after I get through writing you up for your poor attitude. Im my opinion, bad attitude trumps flying skills anyday! From your experience you should know we can put a monkey in a san juan sim and teach him to fly. Afterall, can you define flying skills for me? Please don't embarrass MAPD grads anymore. I helped build a program and left it for guys/gals like you. Learn some humility.

Oh, one more question did you bid Freedom?

 

[ChinaClipper]

What scares me is...

the statement that "..I am doing just fine..." from Mesa d0rk. I assume that self-evaluation is an important part of his life, but having no perspective to make such a judgement leads to such silly statements. I can tell you that MAPD can make some great folks, but the old saying "wide, but shallow"has never been more appropriate than here. There is a disproportinate amount of right seat captancies from the MAPD folks, especially when I feel I am already not getting IOE pay for it. Strong, experienced Captains have prevented alot of MAPD baffonery, but if they listen up, they can become pretty good captaind themselves. Humilitiy and airline industry perspective are not MAPD strong points. I get the feeling from this because large part of the people who are, and will be, staffing Freedumb Air(Mesa's union busting, alter ego operation) seem to be former MAPD folks, and THAT is distressing! The previous post is dead on.....

 

[CA1900]

Re: Boobysamed says it all

PS I agree about putting us/them in the 1900, however there are hundreds of these folks in the jets right know who are doing just fine!

Oh, yeah, they're doing just fine:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&key=1


From the end:

The captain's total flight experience was about 2,500 hours. She had accumulated 200 hours in the EMB-145, all within the preceding 90 days. She had upgraded from the Beech 1900, where she had been a first officer.
The first officer's total flight experience was 1,850 hours with 750 hours in the EMB-145. She had accumulated 90 hours in the preceding 90 days. She had upgraded from the Beech 1900, where she had been a first officer.

Putting inexperienced pilots in jets is not the smartest idea, no matter how good the training and how automated the airplane. There's no substitute for real experience.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Very well put. Just goes to show that there is no substitute for experience and time in type. Just my two pennies worth.

 

[acaTerry]

HO-LEE SHHEE-AWT!! Now THAT is scary.....
Good judgement comes from experience....experience comes from bad judgement.
The FO should have piped up as soon as the CA said a go-around was not an option.

 

[mckpickle]

remember folks is very easy to sit here and play monday morning QB. W have all been flying all day and on duty 14 hours and know that sometimes we are tired and not as sharp. We were not there so lets not bash those who were.

On a side note......doesnt sound like the two of them were in the same cockpit..........sorry box office either. (I just couldn't resist.)

 

[FlyinBrian]

I usually try not to monday morning QB as well, but the fact that she said a go around is not an option. Landing performance data is calculated with a go around in mind. If a go around is not possible, a landing wouldn't be authorized.