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Hardship

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mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
You guys are too much! Somehow going through hardship is going to make me a better pilot. Sounds like your just miffed because thats the route you took. I have had my hardships along the way just like everyone else. Flying crappy planes doesnt make you a better pilot and paying dues to whomever doesnt etither. I went through an ab-initio program and am doing just fine. Like everyone else I learn everyday. In my case it is a second carreer so I gained a lot of my judgement skills prior to the cockpit.
I agree that some of these programs are a farce but others are really good. In fact when in ground school I had many of those dues payer knowking on my door for help with systems etc.
The main difference I have heard between the two routes is ab initio tend to be better at systems, checklists etc to make up for their lack of experience or feel for the plane. So this isnt just opinion I am living it now so give some of us who took a different route a break!!!:D
 
Originally posted by mesajock I agree that some of these programs are a farce but others are really good. In fact when in ground school I had many of those dues payer knowking on my door for help with systems etc.
The main difference I have heard between the two routes is ab initio tend to be better at systems, checklists etc to make up for their lack of experience or feel for the plane. So this isnt just opinion I am living it now so give some of us who took a different route a break!!!:D [/B]

Sounds defensive? Well as a checkairman I can tell you the ONE thing that gives someone an adwantage. Experience, good old fashion sitting in the cockpit and pushing buttons and watching the world go by. And good experience too, sorry but every time someone told me that all their flying was in phoenix that would be a sign. No it wasnt everyone but the overwelming majority of pilots from fair weather schools, I would have their cherries when it came to flying in a cloud. Its not that they were better or worse they just needed to see it, and thats what makes someone qualified is being able to handle situations that arrive. I might also add that as our time minimums decreased the time it took to complete ioe increased. As far as upgrades went. Only about 50% got sign offs on the first ioe trip simply because they did not have a lot of experience as f/o. It was not uncommon for someone to be hired with 8-900 hours in NOV, spend 3 months in training. Get online and have a line by spring. Spend the summer flying then go for an upgrade in NOV DEC of the flowing year. This meant they never really saw a New England winter. Pretty steep learning curve. Myself I upgraded when i was ready, not when senority allowed, and I think I was a better captain for it.
 
well I must have hit new thread no matter. It was not as defensive as it may have appeared on its face. It just gets tiresome being judged because you didnt do it the way other did and I'm not speaking for pay for training.
 
mesajock, i agree with you.

Being a professional pilot is a second career for me as well. After talking to several pilots i decided to go the Ab-Initio route. Since I left an established career in aircraft manufacturing and maintenance and being on the other side of 30 years old, I don't think spending 1200 hrs. instructing in a C172 is the best way to advance my career.

I am tired of hearing all these people say that you must pay your dues by instructing just to be worthy of a cockpit seat on an airliner. Having quality training and good decision making skills is much more important than 1200 hrs. in the traffic pattern.

If people don't agree with the Ab-Initio idea why have so many foreign carriers been using it for years? If you stop in at FlightSafety Academy, the place is full of guys (and ladies) who will go from Seminoles and Senecas to A319 and A320 cockpits with less than 500 hrs. TT for many foreign carriers.

BTW- FlightSafety and ASA have restarted their bridge program for FSI grads, it's on their web site.
 
I don't think spending 1200 hrs. instructing in a C172 is the best way to advance my career.

And that's the primary difference between your attitude and others'. You are more concerned with advancing your career than gaining good experience. I imagine that you would also pick up open time if your company had pilots on furlough because it's the best way to advance your career.

Having quality training and good decision making skills is much more important than 1200 hrs. in the traffic pattern.

First of all, charactarizing flight instruction as such demonstrates a lack of understanding of what instructors do. Secondly, 1200 hours giving instruction ina 172 IS better experience than 300 hours in a controlled training environment where there is an INSTRUCTOR there to save your butt. Even if every one of the hours is in the pattern

If people don't agree with the Ab-Initio idea why have so many foreign carriers been using it for years

Comparing foreign programs to the ab-initio programs here is comparing apples to chainsaws. Besides that, I'll trust my life to a 1200 hour flight instructor instead of a 300 hour german ab-initio pilot any day. Anyone who's shared airspace with Lufthansa at Stanfield knows what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that you all are incapable, or that you are bad pilots. But as the check airman above noted, experience, particularly as PIC where you have to actually make decisions, is what makes a pilot. You can't get this by taking a class in CRM, or by time in a simulator where if you make a bad decision, the screen turns red and you walk out the back. Nor can you get this experience from flying a baron with an instructor who will correct all your bad decsions.

Maybe you did the best thing for your career, but those who are out there building experience will be better pilots than you are. Your extensive knowledge of checklists and air conditioning systems just doesn't make up for your lack of experience.
 
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Hmmmmmmmmm

Bridge dude-300hrs, Outstanding knowledge of afternoon thundershowers in florida and the seabreeze effect. knows a piper seminole by the back of his hand.

135 Frieght Dog-1500hrs in the northeast during winter going into large airports single pilot.

THE CHOICE IS A NO BRAINER

The fact is your basic attitude instrument skills will not be as well developed and you will not be as good at decision making. Yes these are important skills even for an airbus.

However I will say taking a bridge guy and sticking him in a 1900 with a good captain is a graet way to train FUTURE crj drivers.
 
FlyinBrian said:


I imagine that you would also pick up open time if your company had pilots on furlough because it's the best way to advance your career.


Sorry but the answer to that is no, i've had a union card for over 10 years. I've been on strike and been laid-off, have you?

.[/B][/QUOTE]
Your extensive knowledge of checklists and air conditioning systems just doesn't make up for your lack of experience. [/B][/QUOTE]

Speaking with several training captains, the hardest area for new hires is aircraft systems. When there is an inflight emergency don't you went to be with someone who is knowledgeable about systems?

My comment about 1200 hrs. in the pattern was directed at those who get their CFI just to reach 1200 or whatever they feel they need to be competative for an airline job. Those guys are not having some great learning experience. I have alot of respect for the people that get all their instructor ratings and treat it as a profession, but I have a big problem with the 250 hr. CFI teaching people how to fly. If i'm learning from someone I want it to be someone with extensive knowledge on the subject matter. I would much rather have a retired airline captain as my instructor rather than a 20something timebuilder.

When I eventually retire from wherever I end up finishing my career I intend to get my CFI,CFII and MEI. At that point I hope to share what I learned along the way, while staying in the air after retirement. How many others plan to do this?
 
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MAPD

I'm somewhat from the traditional school. Get your CFI, build some hours to reach certain thresholds, learn tons about aviation along the way, and climb the ladder at each threshold. However, I must take the side of MAPD, primarily because I taught there for a time and saw it work.

Bear in mind, though, that not every MAPD grad gets hired. Every person who signs up is given the same chance to excel at MAPD. Not everyone does. It's a very tough and challenging training environment. Some people wash out because they can't handle Mesa's brand of flight training. I had one such student. For others, the opportunity to interview with Mesa is their's to lose. I had one such student like that, too.

MAPD grads who jump through all the myriad hoops might get to cut in line ahead of others for an interview, but once they're there, they're on their own. They're still competing with more experienced and diverse applicants. They have to shine. They are virtually ready to go on line after graduation, but not quite. They still have to go to ground school. They are very much ahead of a street hire because they've been learning Mesa procedures from Day One and have had Beech 1900 ground school. But, I've heard of MAPD grads who wash out of ground school while flight instructors and 135 types who've never had airline ground school do just fine.

Of course, MAPD grads learn lots after they get past IOE and go on the line. But, doesn't everyone? It's a different kind of learning than flight instructing.

You can't beat flight instructing for really pounding the basic principles of aviation into your head. You can't beat it at all for learning human relations skills (read that to mean CRM). But, MAPD works, too.
 
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Boobysamed says it all

Thank you sir! You said everything I was trying to say and did it so elequantly.
You probably guessed by the moniker I went through MAPD. I cant say I loved every minute of it...about half the time I had to bite my tounge because of the nonsense we had to go through. I will give this I have no idea what it is like to be a CFI/II nor do I really want to know. Having said that most CFI/II etc. dont have a clue about the training we go through so listen the bobbysamd. He is one of the few who has seen both sides.
PS I agree about putting us/them in the 1900, however there are hundreds of these folks in the jets right know who are doing just fine!
 

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