Hardship

mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
Total Time
to ltl
You guys are too much! Somehow going through hardship is going to make me a better pilot. Sounds like your just miffed because thats the route you took. I have had my hardships along the way just like everyone else. Flying crappy planes doesnt make you a better pilot and paying dues to whomever doesnt etither. I went through an ab-initio program and am doing just fine. Like everyone else I learn everyday. In my case it is a second carreer so I gained a lot of my judgement skills prior to the cockpit.
I agree that some of these programs are a farce but others are really good. In fact when in ground school I had many of those dues payer knowking on my door for help with systems etc.
The main difference I have heard between the two routes is ab initio tend to be better at systems, checklists etc to make up for their lack of experience or feel for the plane. So this isnt just opinion I am living it now so give some of us who took a different route a break!!!:D
 

DarnNearaJet

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Posts
174
Total Time
5000
Where did this come from?

We must be in the dreaded "Left Field."
 

mckpickle

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
1,242
Total Time
10,000
Originally posted by mesajock I agree that some of these programs are a farce but others are really good. In fact when in ground school I had many of those dues payer knowking on my door for help with systems etc.
The main difference I have heard between the two routes is ab initio tend to be better at systems, checklists etc to make up for their lack of experience or feel for the plane. So this isnt just opinion I am living it now so give some of us who took a different route a break!!!:D [/B]
Sounds defensive? Well as a checkairman I can tell you the ONE thing that gives someone an adwantage. Experience, good old fashion sitting in the cockpit and pushing buttons and watching the world go by. And good experience too, sorry but every time someone told me that all their flying was in phoenix that would be a sign. No it wasnt everyone but the overwelming majority of pilots from fair weather schools, I would have their cherries when it came to flying in a cloud. Its not that they were better or worse they just needed to see it, and thats what makes someone qualified is being able to handle situations that arrive. I might also add that as our time minimums decreased the time it took to complete ioe increased. As far as upgrades went. Only about 50% got sign offs on the first ioe trip simply because they did not have a lot of experience as f/o. It was not uncommon for someone to be hired with 8-900 hours in NOV, spend 3 months in training. Get online and have a line by spring. Spend the summer flying then go for an upgrade in NOV DEC of the flowing year. This meant they never really saw a New England winter. Pretty steep learning curve. Myself I upgraded when i was ready, not when senority allowed, and I think I was a better captain for it.
 

mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
Total Time
to ltl
well I must have hit new thread no matter. It was not as defensive as it may have appeared on its face. It just gets tiresome being judged because you didnt do it the way other did and I'm not speaking for pay for training.
 

VGerect

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Posts
127
Total Time
Beer
mesajock, i agree with you.

Being a professional pilot is a second career for me as well. After talking to several pilots i decided to go the Ab-Initio route. Since I left an established career in aircraft manufacturing and maintenance and being on the other side of 30 years old, I don't think spending 1200 hrs. instructing in a C172 is the best way to advance my career.

I am tired of hearing all these people say that you must pay your dues by instructing just to be worthy of a cockpit seat on an airliner. Having quality training and good decision making skills is much more important than 1200 hrs. in the traffic pattern.

If people don't agree with the Ab-Initio idea why have so many foreign carriers been using it for years? If you stop in at FlightSafety Academy, the place is full of guys (and ladies) who will go from Seminoles and Senecas to A319 and A320 cockpits with less than 500 hrs. TT for many foreign carriers.

BTW- FlightSafety and ASA have restarted their bridge program for FSI grads, it's on their web site.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
I don't think spending 1200 hrs. instructing in a C172 is the best way to advance my career.
And that's the primary difference between your attitude and others'. You are more concerned with advancing your career than gaining good experience. I imagine that you would also pick up open time if your company had pilots on furlough because it's the best way to advance your career.

Having quality training and good decision making skills is much more important than 1200 hrs. in the traffic pattern.
First of all, charactarizing flight instruction as such demonstrates a lack of understanding of what instructors do. Secondly, 1200 hours giving instruction ina 172 IS better experience than 300 hours in a controlled training environment where there is an INSTRUCTOR there to save your butt. Even if every one of the hours is in the pattern

If people don't agree with the Ab-Initio idea why have so many foreign carriers been using it for years
Comparing foreign programs to the ab-initio programs here is comparing apples to chainsaws. Besides that, I'll trust my life to a 1200 hour flight instructor instead of a 300 hour german ab-initio pilot any day. Anyone who's shared airspace with Lufthansa at Stanfield knows what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that you all are incapable, or that you are bad pilots. But as the check airman above noted, experience, particularly as PIC where you have to actually make decisions, is what makes a pilot. You can't get this by taking a class in CRM, or by time in a simulator where if you make a bad decision, the screen turns red and you walk out the back. Nor can you get this experience from flying a baron with an instructor who will correct all your bad decsions.

Maybe you did the best thing for your career, but those who are out there building experience will be better pilots than you are. Your extensive knowledge of checklists and air conditioning systems just doesn't make up for your lack of experience.
 
Last edited:

cocknbull

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Posts
350
Total Time
253334
Hmmmmmmmmm

Bridge dude-300hrs, Outstanding knowledge of afternoon thundershowers in florida and the seabreeze effect. knows a piper seminole by the back of his hand.

135 Frieght Dog-1500hrs in the northeast during winter going into large airports single pilot.

THE CHOICE IS A NO BRAINER

The fact is your basic attitude instrument skills will not be as well developed and you will not be as good at decision making. Yes these are important skills even for an airbus.

However I will say taking a bridge guy and sticking him in a 1900 with a good captain is a graet way to train FUTURE crj drivers.
 

VGerect

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Posts
127
Total Time
Beer
FlyinBrian said:


I imagine that you would also pick up open time if your company had pilots on furlough because it's the best way to advance your career.

Sorry but the answer to that is no, i've had a union card for over 10 years. I've been on strike and been laid-off, have you?

.[/B][/QUOTE]
Your extensive knowledge of checklists and air conditioning systems just doesn't make up for your lack of experience. [/B][/QUOTE]

Speaking with several training captains, the hardest area for new hires is aircraft systems. When there is an inflight emergency don't you went to be with someone who is knowledgeable about systems?

My comment about 1200 hrs. in the pattern was directed at those who get their CFI just to reach 1200 or whatever they feel they need to be competative for an airline job. Those guys are not having some great learning experience. I have alot of respect for the people that get all their instructor ratings and treat it as a profession, but I have a big problem with the 250 hr. CFI teaching people how to fly. If i'm learning from someone I want it to be someone with extensive knowledge on the subject matter. I would much rather have a retired airline captain as my instructor rather than a 20something timebuilder.

When I eventually retire from wherever I end up finishing my career I intend to get my CFI,CFII and MEI. At that point I hope to share what I learned along the way, while staying in the air after retirement. How many others plan to do this?
 
Last edited:

bobbysamd

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
5,710
Total Time
4565
MAPD

I'm somewhat from the traditional school. Get your CFI, build some hours to reach certain thresholds, learn tons about aviation along the way, and climb the ladder at each threshold. However, I must take the side of MAPD, primarily because I taught there for a time and saw it work.

Bear in mind, though, that not every MAPD grad gets hired. Every person who signs up is given the same chance to excel at MAPD. Not everyone does. It's a very tough and challenging training environment. Some people wash out because they can't handle Mesa's brand of flight training. I had one such student. For others, the opportunity to interview with Mesa is their's to lose. I had one such student like that, too.

MAPD grads who jump through all the myriad hoops might get to cut in line ahead of others for an interview, but once they're there, they're on their own. They're still competing with more experienced and diverse applicants. They have to shine. They are virtually ready to go on line after graduation, but not quite. They still have to go to ground school. They are very much ahead of a street hire because they've been learning Mesa procedures from Day One and have had Beech 1900 ground school. But, I've heard of MAPD grads who wash out of ground school while flight instructors and 135 types who've never had airline ground school do just fine.

Of course, MAPD grads learn lots after they get past IOE and go on the line. But, doesn't everyone? It's a different kind of learning than flight instructing.

You can't beat flight instructing for really pounding the basic principles of aviation into your head. You can't beat it at all for learning human relations skills (read that to mean CRM). But, MAPD works, too.
 
Last edited:

mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
Total Time
to ltl
Boobysamed says it all

Thank you sir! You said everything I was trying to say and did it so elequantly.
You probably guessed by the moniker I went through MAPD. I cant say I loved every minute of it...about half the time I had to bite my tounge because of the nonsense we had to go through. I will give this I have no idea what it is like to be a CFI/II nor do I really want to know. Having said that most CFI/II etc. dont have a clue about the training we go through so listen the bobbysamd. He is one of the few who has seen both sides.
PS I agree about putting us/them in the 1900, however there are hundreds of these folks in the jets right know who are doing just fine!
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
I've been on strike and been laid-off, have you?
Haven't been on strike, my company can't... But I have been laid off. I'm sitting in my cubicle right now actually. I don't differentiate much between ab-initio programs and PFT. You're selling out people with more experience because you can afford it. Selling others out to get ahead is the same to me all the way around. From flight instructors who work for free, to people can afford to buy their way into a job.
When there is an inflight emergency don't you went to be with someone who is knowledgeable about systems?
Yes, I also want that person to have experience dealing with inflight emergencies. A 1200 hr. CFI who gets through ground school will have both. An ab-initio probably will not.

I have a big problem with the 250 hr. CFI teaching people how to fly
So a 250 hour pilot isn't qualified to be PIC of a 172 and teach Private Pilot maneuvers, but a 500 hour pilot is qualified to PIC a CRJ to minimums if the captain is incapacitated?
I would much rather have a retired airline captain as my instructor rather than a 20something timebuilder.
And I would rather have an experienced pilot fly my family members to minimus with one engine than a 20something timebuilder

I have often though of being a DE as a retirement career. I think many pilots think of going back to instruction as retirees actually. Still, with the exception of 135 single pilot, flight instructing is about the best experience you can get prior to going to the airlines
 

mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
Total Time
to ltl
All your points are noted. Like all things there are exceptions. Now enlighten me as to what I am (and my fellow ab-initios) are to do to be better pilots with our limited experience. I've got the attitude covered. I'm being serious here..........
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
Mesajock,

I am of the opinion that if you want to work in aviation, get a job commensurate with the level of experience that you have. Get a 135 job or an instructor job. Whatever you get, take it seriously and do it the best that you can. I think you should start your flying career and cut your teeth where only your life or maybe the life of one passenger (who very likely knows what he's getting into) are at stake.

To jump straight into lugging around 50 passengers when you haven't saved yourself and your airplane from a few near-catastrophes as an instructor, or flying it to mins all day at a 135 operation is asking for trouble.

An FO doesn't just fill a seat. He should be able to fly the plane with competence and confidence while the captain is doing other duties, or is incapacitated.

Ab-initio programs are profit driven, and not safety driven. To me, they are a shortcut that puts richer, less qualified folks in the cockpit. I try to get irritated with the programs instead of the pilots, but sometimes I mis-direct my frustration. Particularly when my instructing experience gets charactarizeds as "1200 hours in the pattern" by someone who is trying to take a shortcut to a job.
 

mesajock

Active member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Posts
26
Total Time
to ltl
Well if nothing else I appreciate your time. Of course you realize I'm not going to back track out of the 1900 to fly freight etc. As for rich... not here, my student loans would make a decent house payment! As for qaulified well thats a matter of opinion and we should probably agree to disagree but, I would put my systems knowlege against anyone (with my amount of time in type). About the only thing we have in common is weve been furloughed and are ready to get back to it.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
Flychicaga,

You have a good point in that we've been focusing on time a little too much. It has been said on these boards a million times that experience counts more than time. That is true. My gripe about ab-initio problems really isn't the number of hours, but the lack of experience. 800 hours of solid instructing experience is better than 1200 hours of flying to lunch in severe clear VFR.

Unfortunately, it is difficulty for hiring departments to evaluate true experience, so time tends to sub in in the absense of a better indicator. Two people with 900 dual given could have vastly different experience if one of them took it as a serious job, and the other just sat in the seat while his students built his time for him. But how is a hirinig department to know this?
 

VGerect

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Posts
127
Total Time
Beer
FlyinBrian said:

So a 250 hour pilot isn't qualified to be PIC of a 172 and teach Private Pilot maneuvers, but a 500 hour pilot is qualified to PIC a CRJ to minimums if the captain is incapacitated?

And I would rather have an experienced pilot fly my family members to minimus with one engine than a 20something timebuilder
FlyinBrian said:



If I remember correctly, flying a single engine approach down to minimums was part of my FAR 121.441 SIC check ride.

I never said a 500 hr. pilot was qualified to be a CRJ PIC, that would be ridiculous. However, a 500 hr. pilot with the right training can be an effictive SIC, hence the term CREW. If someone can make it through the interview, company ground school, sim sessions, 121.441 ride and IOE than I think they have demonstrated the ability to handle emergencies and stressful situations.
 

Rick1128

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Posts
919
Total Time
22000+
Brian, I have found that my time as a CFI (CFI-AIME) and as a check airman have kept me sharp. Students and checkee's do the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**est things. Like pulling the mixture instead of the throttle when turning downwind. Or pulling the the dragchute in flight in a Lear. Both have happened to me plus other interesting things. So a CFI, while he doesn't fly all too much, has to keep mentally flying the aircraft, to keep himself and his student out of trouble. And it is sharpness and being to think his/her way out of problems that will help him/her in their future career.

Of course instructors will get burned out after a point in time. My suggestion is to get more advanced ratings. MEI and II will give you a wider range of students and increase your range of experience.

As for flight time. I have flown with F/O's that had 400 hours and found them to be excellent pilots. I have also flown with Ad-Initio grads, some good, some bad. The good ones always seemed to be the ones that had some good experience but needed a little help out of a rut. The bad ones always seemed to be the ones that were cutting career corners. The bads ones generally either learned or didn't make past probation.

Experience is everything. UAL DC-10 accident at Sioux City, IA and the JAL 747 accident had basicly the same cause. But dramaticly different results. The reason was the experience of the crewmembers. Think about that.
 

JOPILOT

JP
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Posts
175
Total Time
7k+
VGerect...

VG, look at Rick1128's post and try to realize that pilots are
just people! Some people suck and bitch all the time about
life, others are great at what they do and are humble...which
one would you like to be?

It does not matter how you get the job, just that when you get
it you do your best to be a proficient and safe pilot so everyone
gets home OK. Good Luck and please shut the hell up!

JP
 

EX_CV580FR8Dawg

De Oppresso Liber
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Posts
651
Total Time
>1
Can't We All Just Get Along?!!!!!!!!
 
Top