HA pilots approve TA

[xanderman]

It's on its way guys!

Here's the first pic of the new addition. Here's to a bright future for all the HAL pilots and the wannabe's such as myself.

http://berad.org/hawaiian-airbus.jpg

 

[pipejockey]

Good news indeed! Glad to see airlines moving forward in contract negotiations and in the arena of pilot pay rate increases and improvements to work rules. We all need to look at inflation costs over the next few years and make sure our new contracts cover the expected costs of living in this new "economy". No sarcasm intended, btw: I voted for Obama. I'm just concerned that we will all accept pay rate increases that don't even keep up with the inflation expected over the next decade. Everyone keep their eye on the ball. Congrats to the Hawaiian guys! See you out in HNL soon!

I both like this post, yet hate it as well! I am thrilled to actually see someone bring up the effect of inflation. Seems pilots can't wrap their heads around it based on the discussions I have had with other pilots in regards to the way compensation has nosedived over the past 9 years. But this new contract is NOT a move forward in the bargaining pattern of contract negotiations as our very own union seems to think, as indicated by Praters statement on it. Yet more shortsightedness by ALPA.

Our own union calls the Hawaiian contract just signed, a forward movement of the bargaining pattern of our airline contracts. WHAT??? a 15% raise for 717 and 20% raise for 767 over the course of a 68 month contract is moving the bargaining pattern forward?? Hey ALPA, get your heads out of your asses!! Since you all are too dumb to figure this out for yourself, 68 months is well over 5 years. Lets see now, the average rate of inflation over the past 25 years has been 3% per year. That means if your pay hasn't gone up by the same amount per year, guess what? You are not earning as much year over year. In other words... YOUR PAY HAS GONE DOWN!!

Historical inflation for the past 25 years has been 3%. There is no reason to believe that this historical rate will go down. If we are lucky it will continue to average 3% although the way things are going in this country, it may well exceed the averages we have seen the past 25 years. With that said, over the course of this 68 month contract, pay would have to increase 16.8% just to KEEP PACE with inflation!! The 717 pilots will see a total of 15% pay increase over 68 months. So hey 717 pilots, enjoy your 1.8% pay CUT!!! I guess you earned it huh? The 767 pilots will see a 20% pay increase over 68 months. So hey 767 pilots, I guess you guys are the big winners!!! A 3.2% increase in earning power at the end of this contract. And how long have you been in negotiations? I assume your pay has been at current rates since the contract became amendable in June 2007. So add another 31 months to the 68 month length of the contract and even the 767 pilots will have less earning power at the end of this contract than they had in June of 07. If you have been getting yearly raises, then disregard the extra 31 months.

You guys took pay cuts a few years ago to help the company, and now they are earning record profits and are one of the most successful airlines in the US, this is the best you can get?? We are doomed!! How is a decrease in earning power of 1.8% for 717 pilots and an increase of 3.2% for 767 pilots considered an acceptable contract from a company earning record profits in an economy trying to recover from the throes of the worst recession since 1929?........... Bueller? Bueller?

And spare me about quality of life issues. Cold hard cash in your hands every 2 weeks is what betters your quality of life. Instead of allowing turboprop feed and code share, what would have been wrong with negotiating a pay rate to fly those aircraft yourself and keep everything in house? Could it be the same old worn out and lame crap that has gone on for decades in this industry whereas pilot's hired and put on a major airlines seniority list are too good to fly turbo-props and rj's for a while?

So even when an airline is earning record profits, the pilots can't even get a contract that increases their earning power over the course of a contract. Another win for airline management!!

 

[FlickerFade]

Figures lie and liars figure.

If you don't work there and don't like the contract, you should be happy!

 

[Jim]

pipejockey,

It's easy to sit on the outside and pontificate without having any of the inside information.

I said many of the same things you posted and more during the voting to other HA pilots. But the reality is that our new contract puts us at the top of the pay scale for narrow body aircraft and 767s, and only below Delta for A330s. Plus our work rules, benefits and retirement are also some of the best in the industry. It is hard to get more when you're at or near the top in some areas and being offered increases to at or near the top in the others. If we had voted this down, the NMB probably would not have released us for a strike for years. In fact, they would probably have parked the negotiations for a long time before they got involved again and it probably would have been another 2 years before we got a contract. Despite this, there were 17% of us that voted. But I full understand why the other 83% voted yes. While I personally think we could have done better, I am very happy with what we got. We have outstanding pay, work rules, benefits and retirement. It is not a contract to be whine about or be ashamed of. It is damn good.

Edit: The other obstacle to HA pilots ever being released by the NMB for a strike was the fact that Hawaii's economy and people are extremely dependent on our inter-island flying. The NMB is mandated to consider this and it was suggested to us that this would preclude our being released to strike with the current economy and lack of inter-island options. We are a victim of our own success.

 

[pipejockey]

Figures lie and liars figure.

If you don't work there and don't like the contract, you should be happy!

If any of my above figures are as you say, lies! Then please correct these lies. The figures I have come up with are for all to see on any search on historical inflation rates. The percentages I used for what the HAL pilots will be getting in raises are directly from HAL's post above. If my figures are wrong, then at worst I would be incorrect, not a liar. I challenge anyone to tell me, and have evidence to support it, that the HAL pilots won't merely have at the very best, about the same earning power in 5 years that they have today. That does not constitute a pay raise, nor the moving forward of contract bargaining patterns.

And 83% voted in favor of this contract? BTW, any contract approved at other airlines, affect future contracts for the rest of us. I intend to vote a resounding NO, on any TA that doesn't significantly raise my earning power over the course of a contract. I do this not only for me, but for everyone else in this profession going forward. Cheers, to the 17% of HAL pilots that understand the concept of inflation and how it affects earning power, and voted no to this continuation of stagnant wages in our profession.:beer:

 

[pipejockey]

pipejockey,

It's easy to sit on the outside and pontificate without having any of the inside information.

I said many of the same things you posted and more during the voting to other HA pilots. But the reality is that our new contract puts us at the top of the pay scale for narrow body aircraft and 767s, and only below Delta for A330s. Plus our work rules, benefits and retirement are also some of the best in the industry. It is hard to get more when you're at or near the top in some areas and being offered increases to at or near the top in the others. If we had voted this down, the NMB probably would not have released us for a strike for years. In fact, they would probably have parked the negotiations for a long time before they got involved again and it probably would have been another 2 years before we got a contract. Despite this, there were 17% of us that voted. But I full understand why the other 83% voted yes. While I personally think we could have done better, I am very happy with what we got. We have outstanding pay, work rules, benefits and retirement. It is not a contract to be whine about or be ashamed of. It is damn good.

But you're comparing these rates to what can only be considered, artificially low rates. We need to start comparing rates to what was out their in the late 90's to 2001. I just can't justify negotiating pay rates from what was created through bankruptcies. Especially at an airline experiencing record profits. We will just have to agree to disagree. And if you were 1 of the 17% who voted no, well you will never be buying the drinks when I'm around, even though I'm flat broke!

*edit* We keep posting at the same time and I missed you're edit. So I will also add that one of the very reasons HAL should be at the top of the pay scales industry wide is the high cost of living in Hawaii. Just a thought.

 

[PCL_128]

Saying that "inflation" has gone up at a rate of 3% per year is far too simplistic. Yes, for a guy making $40k per year, his cost of living has gone up roughly 3% per year on average. But the same cannot be said for a guy making $140k per year, because the basket of goods used to calculate the CPI doesn't apply in the same way to him. For example, as a percentage of income the guy making $140k per year likely spends far less on groceries each year than the guy making $40k. So, if groceries go up in price by 5% this year, and that is calculated into the CPI basket of goods, it affects the guy making $40k a lot more than the guy making $140k.

In general, cost of living increases at a much lower rate for those making "high" incomes. If you're making six figures, your cost of living is not increasing at the same rate as the CPI.

 

[Jim]

...And if you were 1 of the 17% who voted no, well you will never be buying the drinks when I'm around, even though I'm flat broke!...

I am but I'm also an idealist. In this case, the realist won. I was willing to maintain the status quo for however long it took base on principle. But the hard reality is that would have cost me more in lost salary and retirement contributions over the long run. I have no problem with those that voted yes and respect their decision. We fought a long, hard, good fight and this is an outstanding contract.

 

[pipejockey]

Saying that "inflation" has gone up at a rate of 3% per year is far too simplistic. Yes, for a guy making $40k per year, his cost of living has gone up roughly 3% per year on average. But the same cannot be said for a guy making $140k per year, because the basket of goods used to calculate the CPI doesn't apply in the same way to him. For example, as a percentage of income the guy making $140k per year likely spends far less on groceries each year than the guy making $40k. So, if groceries go up in price by 5% this year, and that is calculated into the CPI basket of goods, it affects the guy making $40k a lot more than the guy making $140k.

In general, cost of living increases at a much lower rate for those making "high" incomes. If you're making six figures, your cost of living is not increasing at the same rate as the CPI.

Please don't defend management! I'll buy your cost of living argument in terms of it being more of a hardship on a guy earning 40 grand a year who doesn't get a cost of living raise that keeps up with inflation. But does the cost of luxury items not increase as well? Items that the guy at 40 grand can't afford? Homes, cars, vacations, hobbies. I don't feel as airline pilots we should have to reduce our way of life. The executives don't, management doesn't. As a matter of fact if you look at the average compensation of the those in the executive offices of corporate America in the 70's and how it compared to what their labor was earning, and make that same comparison today, you would be shocked!! The average CEO earned 40 times that of their labor in the 70's. Now it is 400 times!! So why don't all of the excuses management uses to reduce wages and benefits of labor today, go for them as well?? It's time we put a stop to it. And voting in contracts that merely sustain our earning power, earning power that has been decimated the past 10 years, is a total failure in my eyes.

 

[PCL_128]

Please don't defend management!

I'm not. I'm just telling you that your standard of success is not based in fact.

I'll buy your cost of living argument in terms of it being more of a hardship on a guy earning 40 grand a year who doesn't get a cost of living raise that keeps up with inflation. But does the cost of luxury items not increase as well? Items that the guy at 40 grand can't afford? Homes, cars, vacations, hobbies.

Of course the costs of those items increase, but those items are not included in the CPI. To get a true COLA calculation for major airline pilots, you would have to calculate a CPI based on an average basket of goods for individuals making $60k-$220k. And the truth is, you'd have to break it down for FOs and CAs, because the CPI would be different for each.

Of course, you don't really need to do this. On average, the CPI for those making higher incomes is lower than for those making average incomes. Take the government CPI and lower it by 1 or 2 percent and you'll get pretty close.

And voting in contracts that merely sustain our earning power, earning power that has been decimated the past 10 years, is a total failure in my eyes.

I agree that we're still a long way from where we were 10 years ago, but we aren't going to be able to make the jump in one bargaining cycle. Sorry, but the NMB just isn't going to allow it. Take a look at what's happening over at American. The APA keeps demanding 53% pay raises, so the NMB finally just stopped scheduling any negotiating dates. They're getting nowhere, and they never will until they adjust their demands. Is this fair? Of course not, but as my father always told me, life ain't fair. You have to work within the range that the NMB finds reasonable, otherwise you'll just be spinning your wheels indefinitely. A good goal is to take the highest paying group in the industry and try to top it by a few percent. Anything more than that and the NMB is just going to laugh at you.

 

[shmenter]

. . . almost . . .

I started reading the first thread of this page and found it very refreshing. It sure is nice to see a positive post followed by mostly positive comments for once on flight info. . . . Then when things seemed to good to be true, they were and I read page two. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and we have no shortage of takers in this country.

To the HA guys, it sounds like to me that with all things considered (especially the timing of contract negotiations in this current economy) you guys hit a home run. How many are losing jobs and watching their pay drop? I am happy for you. Can things be better? Sure. But could they be worse? you know thats true as well.

At any rate, sure is nice to see something getting better.

 

[pipejockey]

I agree that we're still a long way from where we were 10 years ago, but we aren't going to be able to make the jump in one bargaining cycle. Sorry, but the NMB just isn't going to allow it. Take a look at what's happening over at American. The APA keeps demanding 53% pay raises, so the NMB finally just stopped scheduling any negotiating dates. They're getting nowhere, and they never will until they adjust their demands. Is this fair? Of course not, but as my father always told me, life ain't fair. You have to work within the range that the NMB finds reasonable, otherwise you'll just be spinning your wheels indefinitely. A good goal is to take the highest paying group in the industry and try to top it by a few percent. Anything more than that and the NMB is just going to laugh at you.

Sounds to me like we need to get out from under the RLA! And the only chance albeit remote, is within the next 3 years. Once the richpublicans, errr I mean the REpublicans get the white house back, we are royally screwed again, as opposed to just being plain screwed as we are now. More simply put, it's the difference between taking it by a 6 incher (Dems) or a footlong (repubs).

Also, I seriously doubt Obama would interfere with a labor groups right to self help. If anything, he would encourage management to just get a contract signed by letting them know he will not order pilots back to work. the repubs on the other hand, would just find some way to enact yet more labor screwing laws.

 

[PCL_128]

Sounds to me like we need to get out from under the RLA!

The NLRA has more problems with it than the RLA does. As bad as the RLA is, it works far better for us than the alternative.

Also, I seriously doubt Obama would interfere with a labor groups right to self help.

I'm always glad to see a pilot that understands the importance of politics to our profession, but I think you're taking it a step too far. President Obama is very pro-labor, and we've got a damned good NMB right now, but they are all still politicians, and they can only push management so far. Expecting an immediate jump back to pre-9/11 wages simply isn't going to happen. We can get back there, but it's going to take two bargaining cycles to make it happen. We'll make it most of the way by the end of this bargaining cycle, but not quite the whole way.

 

[FlickerFade]

If you figuring liars want to enter reality consider this:

10 years of a contract, say 2% per year cola, that's 20%, add contractual raises and we're looking at 40% pay raises over the course of this contract? Keeping all of the gains made in retirement? AND a 40% raise? Would not have happened.

You also have to factor in upgrades and longevity raises.

As I said, no one has to convince you all who don't work at Hawaiian. I personally will take my contract over airtran's, happily.

Expecting a $70 per hour raise while under federal mediation?? really? To the tune of a $240/hour pay rate? We were not going to get it, even with Presidential influence.

 

[IAHERJ]

pipejockey,

It's easy to sit on the outside and pontificate without having any of the inside information.

I said many of the same things you posted and more during the voting to other HA pilots. But the reality is that our new contract puts us at the top of the pay scale for narrow body aircraft and 767s, and only below Delta for A330s. Plus our work rules, benefits and retirement are also some of the best in the industry. It is hard to get more when you're at or near the top in some areas and being offered increases to at or near the top in the others. If we had voted this down, the NMB probably would not have released us for a strike for years. In fact, they would probably have parked the negotiations for a long time before they got involved again and it probably would have been another 2 years before we got a contract. Despite this, there were 17% of us that voted. But I full understand why the other 83% voted yes. While I personally think we could have done better, I am very happy with what we got. We have outstanding pay, work rules, benefits and retirement. It is not a contract to be whine about or be ashamed of. It is damn good.

Edit: The other obstacle to HA pilots ever being released by the NMB for a strike was the fact that Hawaii's economy and people are extremely dependent on our inter-island flying. The NMB is mandated to consider this and it was suggested to us that this would preclude our being released to strike with the current economy and lack of inter-island options. We are a victim of our own success.

Your 767 CA pay is almost $30 bucks an hour less than current CAL 12 year 767 CA pay. How can this be at "the top of the pay scale"? Sure it will beat us in just under 6 years but hopefully we will have our 767 CA pay around $240 an hour by then(and have UAL close to leapfrogging that as they hammer out their contract).