Gulfstream

[Lrjtcaptain]

I have heard nothing but horror stories about Gulfstream Intl. Theyre aircraft are ragged old 1900's. They have crap routes. And all you would do is blow thousands to sit in the right seat, put the gear up, call V1 and rotate once in a while, throw bags, and if your lucky maybe get to put the plane into ground fine if your mains don't blow out after hitting hard on the runway. Get your commercial, get your degree, flight instruct or go kiss some butt to get a job flying traffic watch or banner tow, get PIC time and then hit the market. 250hrs turbine SIC isn't gonna help too much, multi is good but its Gulfstream. PFT is frowned upon from what I have heard. Get paid to fly, don't pay for it.

 

[nimtz]

The days of airline pilots making $250,000 grand a year is going to go away, and unions will start to lose their power once non-union, and 'smart union' places like jetBlue, Freedom, and SWA start putting union controlled airlines like USAir and UAL at the bottom of the pile. More and more people are going to use places like Gulfstream to get their feet in the door, no matter how much the 'good ol' boys' scream and cry.

You are young, naive, and quite frankly stupid. Do you think this industry hasn't been through this garbage before. Ever hear of People Express? How about Air Florida? The majors have struggled before in the face of low cost competitors and have always come through in the years ahead. It's the economy stupid!?!
As far as 'smart unions' comment, get a clue man. Before I got into this business I thought unions were worthless too, but try spending a few months on the line and then tell me you don't need a union in your corner. Your attitude scares me when I consider that my union is in contract talks trying to break the long cycle of pathetic pay at the regional level. If we go on strike the company might try to break it by bringing in scabs. I could see some punk like you cr*pping his pants to fly an rj for 16K. Hey you might even pay them 15K for that!
Go ahead and go to Gulfstream and waste 19K. Then when they dump you on the street after you get 250 hours the only jobs you'll find would involve "the prospect of flying around for 8 hours a day wedged into a C152 with a smelly high school kid hell bent on killing you."

 

[chperplt]

I don't like the GS program anymore than most, but I just love reading 800 hour pilots talking to 400 hour pilots like they have 10,000 hours and years of airline experience.

The fact is 99% of you don't have a clue what goes on down there. I only know about GS from the 4 or 5 ex GS FOs I fly with. The 1900 might be an old airplane (as far as cycles and hours go), but how do you know how ragged they are? How many times have you flown them? Why are their routes crap?? I think they have some pretty decent routes for a 1900. How do you know that all FOs do is play with the radio and pull the gear? Everyone I've talked to says it's an equal FP-NFP routine.

It's one thing to talk negatively about the merits of the program you disagree with, but don't make cr@p up about the place just so your message looks better to you.

 

[hyper]

Sounds like you are already set on Gulfscream, you would just like someone to say it's a good deal. That's a decision you'll have to make. You aren't going to get anybody here to back you up. We all respect (well, most of us) our place in the field. Companies like Gulfscream are the armpit stains of the industry and as long as they fool folks like you, they will be around and will provide initiative for like companies.

I say, go for it. But when your finished, do us all a favor and give us a pirep. Paying for your training and just buying hours provides no substance to your experience or career. Remember that the Cheif Pilots and line pilots that are conducting the interviews that you may get probably didn't just pay for their place in the world. More than likely they worked hard for it and they have experiences to share along the way that molded their skills and character. That's something that other pilots look up to. That's something they're going to want to see in an applicant. That's something that $22k plunked down for a few hours pulling gear in a turbine will never buy.

 

[Superfueler]

Wow look at all the posts I missed while doing something constructive!

skypine69:
I know being a pilot isn't easy, pretty much all of aviation is tough. I've worked line service the past 6 years, and the only reason I am still there making crap money is because I love aviation.

Mu2Driver:
I have my BS, but I also have glasses, so that route is out.

Lrjtcaptain:
chperplt spoke for me.

nimitz:
Thank you for the name calling, thats very mature. If UAL and USAir (and DAL and and and...) were not hindered by their unions, they would be in much better shape than they are now. Yeah yeah, just a young punk, sure. I was in a union at one point in my career, and I was much worse off than I am now, in a non-union shop. I also have a business degree, so I am smart enough to look beyond my paycheck, and see the bigger picture. I'm sure the unions do some good, such as with duty times, and other safety stuff, but when they drag a airline to the bottom because of greed, they do more harm than good.

hyper:
I am not already set on GS. I am exploring all my options, and I wanted to find out more info about GS. The reason I have not come out and said "gee guys, you are all so right" is because no one here seems to be using facts, just the moral arguement about paying for a job.

 

[altimaklr]

I disagree that having Gulfstream on the resume isn't a job killer. A lot of interviews are a combination of HR/ line pilots... If I was a line pilot doing the interview, I'd take one look, smile, and send you on your way. A lot of other pilots will do the same thing.

-Sean

 

[Mu2Driver]

Mu2Driver:
I have my BS, but I also have glasses, so that route is out.

Sounds like a cop-out to me. A friend of mine last year got a waiver for 20/400 (not sure exactly, but his vision was really bad)...it limited him to flying transport aircraft, but hey I would take flying a C-17 any day.
The information that I have tells me that the Air Force is still way understaffed in the pilot career field, and they are willing to waiver the vision requirements.

I suggest you go and find some information and educate yourself if you are even remotely interested.

 

[350DRIVER]

Super -
You already have your mind made up so why even "ask" for advice.??!! If this is what you want then go ahead and do it. Will it make your resume look bad.?? Probably not to some airlines BUT it may to others and I personally would NOT want to "justify" to some old, CFI, ANTI- PFT, ANTI- Gulfjoke person sitting on the interview board on WHY I had to "whore" myself out and BUY a right seat in a 1900 (or should I say rent) due to the fact that I didn't want to instruct smelly kids in a C152 8 hours a day as you put it.... A comment like that won't score many points in the aviation community. Do as you wish, however do it and proceed with caution. (just my opinion).... I also would not want to be stuck on a long trip with a captain who had to come up the ranks the hard way without any breaks and explain your previous background to him. (could make for a very long and "unfriendly" trip)- I truly hope that the day comes where I am "blessed" enough to get an ex- gulfer as my f.o. -

You want to go to Gulf- E N J O Y ! ! Their are MANY other options available to you but that is your call not mine

3 5 0

 

[bigD]

Super - here's a fact. You'll leave GS with about 500 hours. Less than half of that will be PIC. Around here, you can't even fly traffic watch in a 172 without 500 hours of PIC. 250 hours SIC in a 1900 is essentially worthless with your time. You'll end up sitting next to a smelly HS kid in a 152 anyway. So save your money.

 

[katanabob]

You want 'facts' about Gulfstream?
Flightinfo.com has more than 6000 members. As of right now, your question has generated 27 replies from 349 views. Despite this incredible number of people and the uncommonly high reply/read ratio, not a single person has had anything good to say about them yet.
Searching for 'Gulfstream' on this board returns 228 threads, many of which appear to be pertinent to your question.
You don't believe that having them on your resume will adversely affect career opportunities? It's hard for me to believe that the general concensus thinks highly of them when I haven't been able to find a good word on them yet.
I'm just a lowly flight instructor waiting to go to training for a regional airline, however. I'm not the guy who does the hiring anywhere or anyone's chief pilot. Yet.
The people who have sent you a reply thought enough of your question to send a reply. Many of them aren't managers or interviewers. Yet.
Does anyone else notice that roughly 10% of the threads started on this board could be paraphrased in asking, "Does anyone out there know how I can get something for nothing?"

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I don't want to dwell on the moral and ethical implications of P-F-T. It appears to me, anyway, that you've made up your mind on those issues. I would just urge you to consider the bigger picture.

I'll add my .02 to those of others. Most line pilots despise those who P-F-T. P-F-T changes the hiring equation. P-F-T turns a level playing field into an incline, because, by virtue of a check, a P-F-T'er with less experience cuts in front of perhaps a more qualified person for a job. How do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket. Or, at the bank? Or, and this is my favorite, when someone cuts you off in traffic? Probably not too much. I'd opine you'll experience that sort of reaction after you leave Gulfstream and meet pilots who worked their way to their crew position on their own. I say that, even though you would use your "airport slut" money to pay for your P-F-T.

Then, let's just say for argument's sake that you can't cut it in training. How much of your P-F-T deposit will you get back? I'd venture to say little or none. Or, how do you know that your instructors have your interests and not the company's at heart? Maybe they might be under pressure to fail a certain number of applicants so that the company can profit from P-F-T fees. I am not making specific accusations, but the fraud aspects of P-F-T were apparent to me when the concept first crossed my path twelve years ago.

Finally, how do you know that Gulfstream will keep you full-time after you fly off your 250 hours? You might be turned loose with 250 hours more in your logbook but still not enough total and multi PIC time to interest the commuters. I realize that many commuters hire Gulfstream "graduates," but how much total time do they have? If you're thinking that you can scoot in front of those with more experience by virtue of your Gulfstream "experience," I'd strongly suggest you think again.

In any event, best of luck with your decision.

PS-I like nimtz's comments. To that end, I suggest you read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger, Jr., ISBN 0-8129-2835-0. It will give you a sense of history of the airline industry.

 

[edy]

I frankly don't care how a person gets their experience. It is THEIR choice. By buying time, they are in NO way whatsoever taking a paid pilots job. If one person ops not to do it, the next will do it.

I was lucky, I did not have to buy time. (just due to geographic location) But I have in fact flown with an excellent pilot who was a graduate of the Gulfstream program. Personally, he was not someone I would grab an ale with, but an excellent pilot non the less. He did say every leg, they alternate who is flying pilot. They do not just play with the gear.

By the way, these are the facts.

Another note, I have many ALPA friends, and MOST of them could care less about PFT. For all you flight instructors and GA pilots who like to insult people out there, learn your facts first, and grow up. I did at one point instruct, it is a fun job, and I would recommend it to people, as you learn very much. But I don't consider myself GOD because I did.

Fly safe everyone.

bobbysamd has some good points. An argument can be made without insults, as some do prove.

 

[Chunk]

a different question...

I've been wanting to ask a question without starting a "new" Gulfstream thread (as if there are ever 'new' threads about GIA)...

A few points before I ask my question:

1. I am not a GIA student. I go to FSI.

2. I have no desire to buy a job.

3. I do not support PFT.

Now that is out of the way, let me ask my question.

If I instruct at Gulfstream because I can't find any other CFI job in FL or I am a CFI poolie at FSI and am awaiting standardization, am I subject to the same treatment that awaits the Gulfstream PFT guys? I am not buying time, only instructing at the school. They don't produce any CFI's so they are always looking for instructors and it's tough finding instructing gigs in Florida. I hafta stay in FL because my wife's job (which is paying the bills currently) is here in Vero Beach. Will I be given the silent treatment or looked down upon in any way? Is it about the PFT or dealing with that company in any way?

Please do not bite my head off, I'm just asking a question. I am anti-PFT. I am anti-PFT. I am anti-PFT. I don't want to pay a company for a job that a more qualified guy should get because he sweated it out as a CFI. I'm just making myself clear here to avoid flame-age.

Chunk <----anti-PFT in case I didn't say it enough

 

[nimtz]

Thank you for the name calling, thats very mature. If UAL and USAir (and DAL and and and...) were not hindered by their unions, they would be in much better shape than they are now.

Man your knowledge of this industry is pathetic. You don't have a clue how things work. So being in a union is the only reason US Air and United face problems right now? It couldn't have anything to do that both of these companies have seen nothing but bad managment since the early 80's. Read a little bit into their corporate history before you put all the blame on the workers.
Continental was without a union for most of the 80's and part of the 90's. So management was freed from the evil force of union greed. Guess where they ended up; in BANKRUPTCY COURT several times over! Oh don't forget the millions managment pocketed when freed from those 'greedy' unions.

I also have a business degree, so I am smart enough to look beyond my paycheck, and see the bigger picture.

Wow a business degree! That must really give you some amazing insight. I also know how to look beyond my paycheck. I know that when the UAL f/a union doesn't offer any concessions, when every other employee union has, then you have union greed. I also know that when a CEO is taking a bonus while the company is furloughing and asking for concessions you are getting hosed. Without a good union in your corner you are nothing put a pawn.
I'm sure Frank Lorenzo, Dick Ferris, and Carl Ichan would of loved to of had a guy like you around in their heyday. Hey John Orenstein will probably take you in a few years! All you'll have to do is cross a picket line.
As far as Gulfstream, go ahead and plunk your money down if its what you want. Just don't expect it to get you any shortcuts to a real turbine job.

 

[Birddog]

RANT ON

I have met a few people who were hell bent on going to GS because they thought it would be some sort of short cut. They did not want to instruct and thought that getting into the right seat of a 1900 quickly would get them out of that. No matter what I tried to tell them, they could not be talked down from that ledge. The GS BS hook was set too deeply.

Super, I have shocking news for you. Just because you get a flying job does not mean you are done doing things you hate. That will continue for the rest of your career and probably for as long as you live. A professional understands that he/she may not like the job they have now, but they will take it and do the best they can with it, and will stick with a long term strategy. I did not like instructing and I did it for just over two years. Not one of my students ever knew (to the best of my knowledge) that I did not like it though. I fly a 1900 now, and life is not perfect either. Today I had the pleasure of preflighting the plane after it had been de-iced at the gate. Let me tell you of the pleasures of lukewarm glycol running under your collar and down your back. But you put up with it every time because you know that you cannot shirk the preflight. That is just an example of the things that really start your day off right.

There is not quick pay off in this industry. There are no real short cuts. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. You have to decide if some of the potential payoffs are worth the work to get there. Also realize that this is a lot like baseball. Not everyone makes it to the big time. Various people fall out along the way because they get hurt or don't make it through training camp. You may do everything right and still not get your ideal dream job. Can you live with that?

I may only have about 2000 hours now, and I am now starting to appreciate just how much I do not know. Overall, I love what I am doing and would give my left nut if I had to in order to keep doing it.

Everything has a price. Time, money, effort, or other resources. Are you willing to pay the price and take the risks.

You originally asked for advice. Don't throw away a lot of money on some snake oil cure. Good luck and fly safe.

RANT OFF

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I havent heard one good thing about GSI and I get attacked by giving my advice....you ask should I attend and mostly every reply i have read has said no yet people cast dispersions on me for saying what I feel. The bottom line, PFT is bull. Any airline you interview with is gonna know your just another shmuck. Anyone can fly an airplane. You gotta have the ambition and the balls to be a captain. I may not have a billion hours, but i have a B.S. from Embry-Riddle, and i have a fulltime job flying. You ask for advice youll get it. Don't lash back and belittle me because your asking for help.

 

[mckpickle]

Listen chief you really need to listen to people who have been down this road. Fisrt off, you need total time, bottom line. Turbine multi is all weel and good but you need total time!

And next I would like to adress your misconceptions on airline unions. First off, Jet Blue and Freedom are non-union. And no one really considers SouthWest union a powerhouse since thier contract is so much lower than everyone else. Be that as it may, lets look at freedom. I dont want to go into a long disertation but the bottom line is the managment is taking flying away from one airline to break the backs of another. In your long flying career have you ever heard of a gentleman named Frank Lorenzo. Ever heard of New York Air?

Those who do not learn history are condemed to repeat it. I would advise you to enjoy your flying, even if its next to a sweaty high school kid. Pay your dues. THis is not only to gain the respect of your peers but to learn. Some of the best lessons I ever learned were buy teaching. And if you truely believe that Gulfstram is in your best interest than I's also advise you to stop inciting a riot on this board.

I have had several side jobs while at an airline. (spelling wasn't one of them) Friends of mine have even been on the hiring commitee. Personally if I ever saw you come to MY airline looking for a job with gulfstream on your resume, you wouldn't make it. I know Im only one guy but a lot of people feel the way I do.

 

[jppt2000]

'll add my .02 to those of others. Most line pilots despise those who P-F-T. P-F-T changes the hiring equation. P-F-T turns a level playing field into an incline, because, by virtue of a check, a P-F-T'er with less experience cuts in front of perhaps a more qualified person for a job. How do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket.

Funny you say that. How long have you flown the line? Exactly how many times have you flown with someone who PFT?

I also would not want to be stuck on a long trip with a captain who had to come up the ranks the hard way without any breaks and explain your previous background to him. (could make for a very long and "unfriendly" trip)- I truly hope that the day comes where I am "blessed" enough to get an ex- gulfer as my f.o. -

Please pull that attitude off on a trip. You will have a meeting with the Chief Pilot or at least with the Pro Standards Committee.

Oh and also there are lots of Gulfstream Grads who will be very senior to you at the airline you might fly at.

In fact you fail to realize they sit on interview boards also.
They are Check Airmen, IOE instructors, and chief pilots at numerous airlines.
There are no guarantees at 3M
You are only guaranteed to get 250 hours. If your timing is right and they are hiring, you get a chance at a permanent job.

 

[hyper]

On the other hand if you heed these warnings and change your mind, don't instruct either. We already have too many CFIs out there that just want to fill their logbook and could care less about the smelly student next to them.

 

[bobbysamd]

Line flying

Sadly, I never had the privilege. P-F-T was just about the only choice left for me eleven years ago, and for the reasons I enumerated above I said "no." However, I talked with some Continental pilots before a flight several months ago. They had no use for P-F-T.

I'd also suggest a re-read of mcpickle's comments above.

Three more pieces of suggested reading: Both volumes of Flying the Line. Page 45 of the October 28 Time has an excellent article about Southwest.

Finally, I have 3549 hours of instructing. Not all flight student are unhygienic (although some foreign students have different ideas about hygiene than Americans). And, if such a student presents himself/herself, suggest that he/she shower before flying with you. You will find that most flight students are just as enthusiastic about flying as you are, if not more so.