Gulfstream

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I don't want to dwell on the moral and ethical implications of P-F-T. It appears to me, anyway, that you've made up your mind on those issues. I would just urge you to consider the bigger picture.

I'll add my .02 to those of others. Most line pilots despise those who P-F-T. P-F-T changes the hiring equation. P-F-T turns a level playing field into an incline, because, by virtue of a check, a P-F-T'er with less experience cuts in front of perhaps a more qualified person for a job. How do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket. Or, at the bank? Or, and this is my favorite, when someone cuts you off in traffic? Probably not too much. I'd opine you'll experience that sort of reaction after you leave Gulfstream and meet pilots who worked their way to their crew position on their own. I say that, even though you would use your "airport slut" money to pay for your P-F-T.

Then, let's just say for argument's sake that you can't cut it in training. How much of your P-F-T deposit will you get back? I'd venture to say little or none. Or, how do you know that your instructors have your interests and not the company's at heart? Maybe they might be under pressure to fail a certain number of applicants so that the company can profit from P-F-T fees. I am not making specific accusations, but the fraud aspects of P-F-T were apparent to me when the concept first crossed my path twelve years ago.

Finally, how do you know that Gulfstream will keep you full-time after you fly off your 250 hours? You might be turned loose with 250 hours more in your logbook but still not enough total and multi PIC time to interest the commuters. I realize that many commuters hire Gulfstream "graduates," but how much total time do they have? If you're thinking that you can scoot in front of those with more experience by virtue of your Gulfstream "experience," I'd strongly suggest you think again.

In any event, best of luck with your decision.

PS-I like nimtz's comments. To that end, I suggest you read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger, Jr., ISBN 0-8129-2835-0. It will give you a sense of history of the airline industry.

 

[edy]

I frankly don't care how a person gets their experience. It is THEIR choice. By buying time, they are in NO way whatsoever taking a paid pilots job. If one person ops not to do it, the next will do it.

I was lucky, I did not have to buy time. (just due to geographic location) But I have in fact flown with an excellent pilot who was a graduate of the Gulfstream program. Personally, he was not someone I would grab an ale with, but an excellent pilot non the less. He did say every leg, they alternate who is flying pilot. They do not just play with the gear.

By the way, these are the facts.

Another note, I have many ALPA friends, and MOST of them could care less about PFT. For all you flight instructors and GA pilots who like to insult people out there, learn your facts first, and grow up. I did at one point instruct, it is a fun job, and I would recommend it to people, as you learn very much. But I don't consider myself GOD because I did.

Fly safe everyone.

bobbysamd has some good points. An argument can be made without insults, as some do prove.

 

[Chunk]

a different question...

I've been wanting to ask a question without starting a "new" Gulfstream thread (as if there are ever 'new' threads about GIA)...

A few points before I ask my question:

1. I am not a GIA student. I go to FSI.

2. I have no desire to buy a job.

3. I do not support PFT.

Now that is out of the way, let me ask my question.

If I instruct at Gulfstream because I can't find any other CFI job in FL or I am a CFI poolie at FSI and am awaiting standardization, am I subject to the same treatment that awaits the Gulfstream PFT guys? I am not buying time, only instructing at the school. They don't produce any CFI's so they are always looking for instructors and it's tough finding instructing gigs in Florida. I hafta stay in FL because my wife's job (which is paying the bills currently) is here in Vero Beach. Will I be given the silent treatment or looked down upon in any way? Is it about the PFT or dealing with that company in any way?

Please do not bite my head off, I'm just asking a question. I am anti-PFT. I am anti-PFT. I am anti-PFT. I don't want to pay a company for a job that a more qualified guy should get because he sweated it out as a CFI. I'm just making myself clear here to avoid flame-age.

Chunk <----anti-PFT in case I didn't say it enough

 

[nimtz]

Thank you for the name calling, thats very mature. If UAL and USAir (and DAL and and and...) were not hindered by their unions, they would be in much better shape than they are now.

Man your knowledge of this industry is pathetic. You don't have a clue how things work. So being in a union is the only reason US Air and United face problems right now? It couldn't have anything to do that both of these companies have seen nothing but bad managment since the early 80's. Read a little bit into their corporate history before you put all the blame on the workers.
Continental was without a union for most of the 80's and part of the 90's. So management was freed from the evil force of union greed. Guess where they ended up; in BANKRUPTCY COURT several times over! Oh don't forget the millions managment pocketed when freed from those 'greedy' unions.

I also have a business degree, so I am smart enough to look beyond my paycheck, and see the bigger picture.

Wow a business degree! That must really give you some amazing insight. I also know how to look beyond my paycheck. I know that when the UAL f/a union doesn't offer any concessions, when every other employee union has, then you have union greed. I also know that when a CEO is taking a bonus while the company is furloughing and asking for concessions you are getting hosed. Without a good union in your corner you are nothing put a pawn.
I'm sure Frank Lorenzo, Dick Ferris, and Carl Ichan would of loved to of had a guy like you around in their heyday. Hey John Orenstein will probably take you in a few years! All you'll have to do is cross a picket line.
As far as Gulfstream, go ahead and plunk your money down if its what you want. Just don't expect it to get you any shortcuts to a real turbine job.

 

[Birddog]

RANT ON

I have met a few people who were hell bent on going to GS because they thought it would be some sort of short cut. They did not want to instruct and thought that getting into the right seat of a 1900 quickly would get them out of that. No matter what I tried to tell them, they could not be talked down from that ledge. The GS BS hook was set too deeply.

Super, I have shocking news for you. Just because you get a flying job does not mean you are done doing things you hate. That will continue for the rest of your career and probably for as long as you live. A professional understands that he/she may not like the job they have now, but they will take it and do the best they can with it, and will stick with a long term strategy. I did not like instructing and I did it for just over two years. Not one of my students ever knew (to the best of my knowledge) that I did not like it though. I fly a 1900 now, and life is not perfect either. Today I had the pleasure of preflighting the plane after it had been de-iced at the gate. Let me tell you of the pleasures of lukewarm glycol running under your collar and down your back. But you put up with it every time because you know that you cannot shirk the preflight. That is just an example of the things that really start your day off right.

There is not quick pay off in this industry. There are no real short cuts. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. You have to decide if some of the potential payoffs are worth the work to get there. Also realize that this is a lot like baseball. Not everyone makes it to the big time. Various people fall out along the way because they get hurt or don't make it through training camp. You may do everything right and still not get your ideal dream job. Can you live with that?

I may only have about 2000 hours now, and I am now starting to appreciate just how much I do not know. Overall, I love what I am doing and would give my left nut if I had to in order to keep doing it.

Everything has a price. Time, money, effort, or other resources. Are you willing to pay the price and take the risks.

You originally asked for advice. Don't throw away a lot of money on some snake oil cure. Good luck and fly safe.

RANT OFF

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I havent heard one good thing about GSI and I get attacked by giving my advice....you ask should I attend and mostly every reply i have read has said no yet people cast dispersions on me for saying what I feel. The bottom line, PFT is bull. Any airline you interview with is gonna know your just another shmuck. Anyone can fly an airplane. You gotta have the ambition and the balls to be a captain. I may not have a billion hours, but i have a B.S. from Embry-Riddle, and i have a fulltime job flying. You ask for advice youll get it. Don't lash back and belittle me because your asking for help.

 

[mckpickle]

Listen chief you really need to listen to people who have been down this road. Fisrt off, you need total time, bottom line. Turbine multi is all weel and good but you need total time!

And next I would like to adress your misconceptions on airline unions. First off, Jet Blue and Freedom are non-union. And no one really considers SouthWest union a powerhouse since thier contract is so much lower than everyone else. Be that as it may, lets look at freedom. I dont want to go into a long disertation but the bottom line is the managment is taking flying away from one airline to break the backs of another. In your long flying career have you ever heard of a gentleman named Frank Lorenzo. Ever heard of New York Air?

Those who do not learn history are condemed to repeat it. I would advise you to enjoy your flying, even if its next to a sweaty high school kid. Pay your dues. THis is not only to gain the respect of your peers but to learn. Some of the best lessons I ever learned were buy teaching. And if you truely believe that Gulfstram is in your best interest than I's also advise you to stop inciting a riot on this board.

I have had several side jobs while at an airline. (spelling wasn't one of them) Friends of mine have even been on the hiring commitee. Personally if I ever saw you come to MY airline looking for a job with gulfstream on your resume, you wouldn't make it. I know Im only one guy but a lot of people feel the way I do.

 

[jppt2000]

'll add my .02 to those of others. Most line pilots despise those who P-F-T. P-F-T changes the hiring equation. P-F-T turns a level playing field into an incline, because, by virtue of a check, a P-F-T'er with less experience cuts in front of perhaps a more qualified person for a job. How do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket.

Funny you say that. How long have you flown the line? Exactly how many times have you flown with someone who PFT?

I also would not want to be stuck on a long trip with a captain who had to come up the ranks the hard way without any breaks and explain your previous background to him. (could make for a very long and "unfriendly" trip)- I truly hope that the day comes where I am "blessed" enough to get an ex- gulfer as my f.o. -

Please pull that attitude off on a trip. You will have a meeting with the Chief Pilot or at least with the Pro Standards Committee.

Oh and also there are lots of Gulfstream Grads who will be very senior to you at the airline you might fly at.

In fact you fail to realize they sit on interview boards also.
They are Check Airmen, IOE instructors, and chief pilots at numerous airlines.
There are no guarantees at 3M
You are only guaranteed to get 250 hours. If your timing is right and they are hiring, you get a chance at a permanent job.

 

[hyper]

On the other hand if you heed these warnings and change your mind, don't instruct either. We already have too many CFIs out there that just want to fill their logbook and could care less about the smelly student next to them.

 

[bobbysamd]

Line flying

Sadly, I never had the privilege. P-F-T was just about the only choice left for me eleven years ago, and for the reasons I enumerated above I said "no." However, I talked with some Continental pilots before a flight several months ago. They had no use for P-F-T.

I'd also suggest a re-read of mcpickle's comments above.

Three more pieces of suggested reading: Both volumes of Flying the Line. Page 45 of the October 28 Time has an excellent article about Southwest.

Finally, I have 3549 hours of instructing. Not all flight student are unhygienic (although some foreign students have different ideas about hygiene than Americans). And, if such a student presents himself/herself, suggest that he/she shower before flying with you. You will find that most flight students are just as enthusiastic about flying as you are, if not more so.

 

[Publishers]

Thread

Bobby,


This is like the thread to nowhere. It has a life of it's own and not a very productive one.

They never consider that they may be interviewing with a former Gulfstream pilot and let's hear them tell him they do not believe in it.

 

[Chunk]

If you guys could address my question, I'd appreciate it.

See above.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: P-F-T

I don't want to dwell on the moral and ethical implications of P-F-T. It appears to me, anyway, that you've made up your mind on those issues. I would just urge you to consider the bigger picture.

I'll add my .02 to those of others. Most line pilots despise those who P-F-T. P-F-T changes the hiring equation. P-F-T turns a level playing field into an incline, because, by virtue of a check, a P-F-T'er with less experience cuts in front of perhaps a more qualified person for a job. How do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket. Or, at the bank? Or, and this is my favorite, when someone cuts you off in traffic? Probably not too much. I'd opine you'll experience that sort of reaction after you leave Gulfstream and meet pilots who worked their way to their crew position on their own. I say that, even though you would use your "airport slut" money to pay for your P-F-T.

Then, let's just say for argument's sake that you can't cut it in training. How much of your P-F-T deposit will you get back? I'd venture to say little or none. Or, how do you know that your instructors have your interests and not the company's at heart? Maybe they might be under pressure to fail a certain number of applicants so that the company can profit from P-F-T fees. I am not making specific accusations, but the fraud aspects of P-F-T were apparent to me when the concept first crossed my path twelve years ago.

Finally, how do you know that Gulfstream will keep you full-time after you fly off your 250 hours? You might be turned loose with 250 hours more in your logbook but still not enough total and multi PIC time to interest the commuters. I realize that many commuters hire Gulfstream "graduates," but how much total time do they have? If you're thinking that you can scoot in front of those with more experience by virtue of your Gulfstream "experience," I'd strongly suggest you think again.

In any event, best of luck with your decision.

PS-I like nimtz's comments. To that end, I suggest you read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger, Jr., ISBN 0-8129-2835-0. It will give you a sense of history of the airline industry.

Funny that you say that you don't want to dwell on the implications of PFT. Looking back at old GIA threads you seem to be obsessed with the topic.

You say that PFT creates an incline instead of an even playing field. Well, so do about a thousand other things: race, gender, and (your personal favorite) age. Just ask all of the UAL applicants that were better qualified but got passed up so that they could meet their quota of female pilots. There is no such thing as an even playing field. Welcome to the real world.

Yes, it is true that a lot of people finish their 250 and do not get hired permenantly. However, they are not just "turned loose." I finished my 250 in Feb. Gulfstream then hired me as a CFI for their academy until I could pick up another job. After about 200 hours of dual given I got hired by Pinnacle (NW Airlink). Many other pilots have gone to Colgan, Pinnacle, Mesa, etc... after finishing their 250. Most of them had under 1000 hours. And yes, this is all after 9/11. The 121 experience makes a big difference.

Superfueler, don't listen to the BS on this board. I've been flying the line at Pinnacle for 4 months now and have had no ill will towards me for going to GIA. GIA is a terrible company to work for. It's owned by an EAL scab and he treats his pilots like sh!t. You will not enjoy the time you spend there, but for most people it is worth it in the end. Hope this helps.

 

[de727ups]

In a nutshell....Gulfstream is bad. They find guys willing to pay to get on-the-job training in the right seat of a 121 airline. It's bad for the industry to have management taking advantage of "the system", and the piloting profession, in this way. Gulfstream is the worst example of PFT, and, as such, needs to be bashed in the worst way. How can a guy who's been in the industry for a while not look at their glossy ads in Flying and not puke.....

Most major guys with 10 years of senority have never heard of Gulfstream because programs like theirs weren't around "in the day". However, you explain the idea of having a F/O pay to sit in the right seat of an airline cockpit and that management see's pilots as a revenue inhancer, and you arent' gonna get many good comments.

That said...the above is just one guys opinion...take it or leave it.

Superfueler....you came here seeking advice and many gave their opinions. You say you did a search but didn't find the answers you are looking for. The Gulfstream issue is a hot one and brings out the worst in "forum decourm" You came here and kinda knocked flight instructing, the time honored way most of us began the career....I think flight instructing with high school kids would be pretty cool. Will doing Gulfstream cost you a job....maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of things that can cost you a job and if it happens...you just move on to the next interview. It happened to me over an unfair (in my opinion) bad recommendation from a previous employer. Cost me what would have been a great job at the time. You just move on....I eventually reached and exceeded my career goals.

I'm advising you NOT to go to Gulfstream and explained why, in my opinion. Of course, it's still a free country, last I checked, and you are free to do as you please.

Chunk....I think I'd stay away from anything that has to do with the place unless you just have no other choice. Many pilots won't understand the difference between doing the program and just instructing there. Why be associated with the place at all? I guess if it comes down to working there or sitting on your butt....sitting on your butt isn't very productive.

 

[hyper]

I've been flying the line at Pinnacle for 4 months now and have had no ill will towards me for going to GIA.

Still doesn't mean that you didn't buy your job and I'm sure the first words out of your mouth when you speak to other pilots aren't "hey by the way, I plunked down $xxK to buy my time, and look at me now!". Besides, few will come right out and say what they really think even if they actually earned their position.

GIA is a terrible company to work for. It's owned by an EAL scab and he treats his pilots like sh!t. You will not enjoy the time you spend there

But you guys keep lining his pockets!