Gulfstream

[Publishers]

Thread

Bobby,


This is like the thread to nowhere. It has a life of it's own and not a very productive one.

They never consider that they may be interviewing with a former Gulfstream pilot and let's hear them tell him they do not believe in it.

 

[Chunk]

If you guys could address my question, I'd appreciate it.

See above.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: P-F-T

I don't want to dwell on the moral and ethical implications of P-F-T. It appears to me, anyway, that you've made up your mind on those issues. I would just urge you to consider the bigger picture.

I'll add my .02 to those of others. Most line pilots despise those who P-F-T. P-F-T changes the hiring equation. P-F-T turns a level playing field into an incline, because, by virtue of a check, a P-F-T'er with less experience cuts in front of perhaps a more qualified person for a job. How do you like it when someone cuts in front of you in the checkout line at the supermarket. Or, at the bank? Or, and this is my favorite, when someone cuts you off in traffic? Probably not too much. I'd opine you'll experience that sort of reaction after you leave Gulfstream and meet pilots who worked their way to their crew position on their own. I say that, even though you would use your "airport slut" money to pay for your P-F-T.

Then, let's just say for argument's sake that you can't cut it in training. How much of your P-F-T deposit will you get back? I'd venture to say little or none. Or, how do you know that your instructors have your interests and not the company's at heart? Maybe they might be under pressure to fail a certain number of applicants so that the company can profit from P-F-T fees. I am not making specific accusations, but the fraud aspects of P-F-T were apparent to me when the concept first crossed my path twelve years ago.

Finally, how do you know that Gulfstream will keep you full-time after you fly off your 250 hours? You might be turned loose with 250 hours more in your logbook but still not enough total and multi PIC time to interest the commuters. I realize that many commuters hire Gulfstream "graduates," but how much total time do they have? If you're thinking that you can scoot in front of those with more experience by virtue of your Gulfstream "experience," I'd strongly suggest you think again.

In any event, best of luck with your decision.

PS-I like nimtz's comments. To that end, I suggest you read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger, Jr., ISBN 0-8129-2835-0. It will give you a sense of history of the airline industry.

Funny that you say that you don't want to dwell on the implications of PFT. Looking back at old GIA threads you seem to be obsessed with the topic.

You say that PFT creates an incline instead of an even playing field. Well, so do about a thousand other things: race, gender, and (your personal favorite) age. Just ask all of the UAL applicants that were better qualified but got passed up so that they could meet their quota of female pilots. There is no such thing as an even playing field. Welcome to the real world.

Yes, it is true that a lot of people finish their 250 and do not get hired permenantly. However, they are not just "turned loose." I finished my 250 in Feb. Gulfstream then hired me as a CFI for their academy until I could pick up another job. After about 200 hours of dual given I got hired by Pinnacle (NW Airlink). Many other pilots have gone to Colgan, Pinnacle, Mesa, etc... after finishing their 250. Most of them had under 1000 hours. And yes, this is all after 9/11. The 121 experience makes a big difference.

Superfueler, don't listen to the BS on this board. I've been flying the line at Pinnacle for 4 months now and have had no ill will towards me for going to GIA. GIA is a terrible company to work for. It's owned by an EAL scab and he treats his pilots like sh!t. You will not enjoy the time you spend there, but for most people it is worth it in the end. Hope this helps.

 

[de727ups]

In a nutshell....Gulfstream is bad. They find guys willing to pay to get on-the-job training in the right seat of a 121 airline. It's bad for the industry to have management taking advantage of "the system", and the piloting profession, in this way. Gulfstream is the worst example of PFT, and, as such, needs to be bashed in the worst way. How can a guy who's been in the industry for a while not look at their glossy ads in Flying and not puke.....

Most major guys with 10 years of senority have never heard of Gulfstream because programs like theirs weren't around "in the day". However, you explain the idea of having a F/O pay to sit in the right seat of an airline cockpit and that management see's pilots as a revenue inhancer, and you arent' gonna get many good comments.

That said...the above is just one guys opinion...take it or leave it.

Superfueler....you came here seeking advice and many gave their opinions. You say you did a search but didn't find the answers you are looking for. The Gulfstream issue is a hot one and brings out the worst in "forum decourm" You came here and kinda knocked flight instructing, the time honored way most of us began the career....I think flight instructing with high school kids would be pretty cool. Will doing Gulfstream cost you a job....maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of things that can cost you a job and if it happens...you just move on to the next interview. It happened to me over an unfair (in my opinion) bad recommendation from a previous employer. Cost me what would have been a great job at the time. You just move on....I eventually reached and exceeded my career goals.

I'm advising you NOT to go to Gulfstream and explained why, in my opinion. Of course, it's still a free country, last I checked, and you are free to do as you please.

Chunk....I think I'd stay away from anything that has to do with the place unless you just have no other choice. Many pilots won't understand the difference between doing the program and just instructing there. Why be associated with the place at all? I guess if it comes down to working there or sitting on your butt....sitting on your butt isn't very productive.

 

[hyper]

I've been flying the line at Pinnacle for 4 months now and have had no ill will towards me for going to GIA.

Still doesn't mean that you didn't buy your job and I'm sure the first words out of your mouth when you speak to other pilots aren't "hey by the way, I plunked down $xxK to buy my time, and look at me now!". Besides, few will come right out and say what they really think even if they actually earned their position.

GIA is a terrible company to work for. It's owned by an EAL scab and he treats his pilots like sh!t. You will not enjoy the time you spend there

But you guys keep lining his pockets!

 

[DrvA320]

Superfueler,

I'm thinking that you just don't understand.

Firstly, you have no understanding of the relationship between pilot unions and airline management. Might I suggest reading two books - "Flying the Line: The First Half Century of the Air Line Pilots Association" by George Hopkins and its follow up titled "Flying the Line 2". Perhaps these short books will enlighten you to the true relationship between pilots and management. (Think about it.... you've never been involved so how could you possibly know what its all about)

Secondly, GS is related to scabbing because of its owner. Read one of the above books to find out why those of us in the industry truely Hate these people. This will help you understand why you do not want to be associated with GS.

If being associated with scab's doesn't bother you; then you might want to re-think you desires to sit in a cockpit for a living.

Lastly, I believe that some of the advice you've been given here is valid. Flying a 152 for 8 hours a day is a priceless point of education for many. I can tell you from experience that with the hours you have, you will learn more from teaching the next 1000 hours than you could ever learn yankin gear in a 1900. You Don't need SIC time right now, you need PIC. SIC for GS won't do much for you. I've been on interview boards.... don't you think we know about GS and what the value of the SIC program there equates to.

Regardless, good luck with whatever you decide.

DRVA320

 

[Lord Wakefield]

I disagree that having Gulfstream on the resume isn't a job killer. A lot of interviews are a combination of HR/ line pilots... If I was a line pilot doing the interview, I'd take one look, smile, and send you on your way. A lot of other pilots will do the same thing.

-Sean

Listen, I know dozens of ex-'Stream pilots (myself included) and having Gulfstream on the resume is far from a job killer. Their pilots are at EVERY major airline.
But, please do not take this as an endorsement of the program or especially the company.
The reason they get jobs is because most companies screen pilots in an impersonal way. Heck, look at UAL's scantron; you colour in the same bubbles for a 1900 as you do with large military transports or a 727.
When things work out in the student's favour, he'll build time quickly and perhaps upgrade. To the machine that reads the circles made by your #2 pencil it matters not that the training sucked, the aircraft were broken, and the flying was pretty much VMC. With smaller companies it may be different. Midway was wooed by these apparently qualified pilots and hired a bunch. But, when an inordinate number washed out of initial training, they stopped looking at them and you had to prove yourself elsewhere first.

Another poster here said that PFT takes a level playing field and turns it to an incline. I agree. But don't think there's not an incline WITHIN the PFT company.
You'll soon find out at the 'Stream not everyone is on equal footing. Staying on beyond your 250hrs has little to do with your ability and more to do with: can they train your replacement fast enough?, are there foreigners willing to pay for additional hours?, do you bring cuban rum & cigars to TLC?, and sometimes, who you're sleeping with?
The same applies to upgrades: some pay others don't; and, you don't stand a chance if, at the moment, they think they can sell the left seat.

But while having this company on your resume isn't a job killer in and of itself, a multitude of things could happen down there that definately are (correction, could be). Their methods would often get you violated elsewhere (sometimes here); you'll learn to take chances to get the job done; to survive, you may feel compelled to stab your fellow 'Stream pilots in the back.
Those who get hurt though, will probably get dinged in the training department with a record or comment that will follow them for 5 years under PRIA. That's because that 'Stream admits to no mistakes. If you were one of the ones who waited 6mos to a year for training while new applicants continued to stream thru, you could be expected to get washed out. Second day in training you get 1/2 back. Beyond that- ZERO. Want to sue, get in line.

I know people who survived a lot of bad experiences at the 'stream, pressed on undeterred and are happily employed elsewhere. But, why take the chance?

Many of us made the mistake. I'll fly with anyone who acknowledges that. The ones who say they "have no regrets".......Well, those I'd like to punch.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Still doesn't mean that you didn't buy your job and I'm sure the first words out of your mouth when you speak to other pilots aren't "hey by the way, I plunked down $xxK to buy my time, and look at me now!". Besides, few will come right out and say what they really think even if they actually earned their position.


But you guys keep lining his pockets!

Actually, as I'm sure you know, when you start a trip with someone new one of the first things you talk about is where you were working before. So my GIA background comes out very quickly. Nobody cares. Of course it's possible that you're right and they are just not telling how they really feel. If so, then they are very good at hiding it. Besides, I really don't care. They can think whatever they want.

No, I don't "keep lining his pockets." I paid him once before I knew of his Scab background. If I had it to do over again, I'm honestly not sure what I would have done.

 

[MIKE767]

Not only is the owner of Gulfstream an Eastern scab, but the two

Continental Pilots who provide a glowing testimonial on there

web site promoting the program are CAL 1983 scabs.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Not only is the owner of Gulfstream an Eastern scab, but the two

Continental Pilots who provide a glowing testimonial on there

web site promoting the program are CAL 1983 scabs.

List of Scabs at GIA:

Thomas Cooper: Owner and CEO; crossed at EAL in '89; DOH '66
Hugh Mason: VP Flight Ops; also crossed at EAL; DOH '89
Peter Clements: Director of the Academy; crossed EAL in '89; DOH not available; failed trng at Air Tran
Erwin Korzcynski: 1900 sim instructor; crossed EAL '89; DOH '66
Damon Loop: 1900 Captain; crossed EAL '89; DOH not available
Roger Moll: 1900 Captain; crossed EAL '89; DOH '63
Orlando Rojas: Academy CFI; crossed EAL '89; DOH not available
Carl Young: 1900 ground instructor; crossed EAL '89; DOH '63

And the CAL pilots that offered recommendation letter for the web site:

Steven Cady: CAL 777 check airman; crossed CAL '83
Dennis Turnbough: CAL Asst. Chief Pilot; crossed CAL '83

Both of their sons went to GIA. Cady's son flunked out. Turbough's son made permanent hire for the airline and is the biggest kiss-a$$ at the company.

As I said earlier, with all these pr!cks at GIA it's a terrible place to work. But if you need the 121 experience to advance your career, it does the job.

 

[Cornelius]

CRJ200FO, continue to keep your head in the sand because it looks like its working. You're not going to get an objective opinion of Scabstream at Pinnacle since they have so many over there. I was at a CALex interview last year and a GS guy got turned down even though he thought he did well. I didn't tell him why I thought he got turned down but I knew what the interviewers thought since they were all line pilots.

I had the opportunity to fly for a jet charter company but turned it down since they were PFT. I just couldn't live with myself knowing I sunk that low. And I would've even got paid while sitting in the right seat but it didn't make it look any better. I would rather spend my money on skiing and vacations.

There is no reason to PFT these days.

 

[CRJ200FO]

CRJ200FO, continue to keep your head in the sand because it looks like its working. You're not going to get an objective opinion of Scabstream at Pinnacle since they have so many over there. I was at a CALex interview last year and a GS guy got turned down even though he thought he did well. I didn't tell him why I thought he got turned down but I knew what the interviewers thought since they were all line pilots.

I had the opportunity to fly for a jet charter company but turned it down since they were PFT. I just couldn't live with myself knowing I sunk that low. And I would've even got paid while sitting in the right seat but it didn't make it look any better. I would rather spend my money on skiing and vacations.

There is no reason to PFT these days.

Get your facts straight. CALex was one of the biggest takers of GIA pilots pre-9/11. At least a dozen went to CALex while I was at GIA. That one pilot you met was the exception, not the rule.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Also a bunch of civilian trained white guys made it to DAL in the first wave of highering in '97. They were all successful. And even the ones that got there years earlier BECAUSE of the program don't recommend it. They'll admit they were lucky to get thru unscathed.

Many got on with UAL, USA, NW, TWA, and AA. Only about half were minorities.

When someone who benefited form the programme doesn't recommend it and when hundreds (though annonymously) post bile about the company/programme--it tells you something.


P.S A son who washes out proves that there is no honour among scabs!
P.P.S. Moll was management at EAL and it could be argued wasn't a scab.
P.P.P.S. Clements also washed out of 1900 training but weaseled his way back in a received 80+ hours of training. He never dead sticked one of the turbo props though

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Longhorn:

Please clarify. What do you mean "wait while they hire students from Gulfstream"

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

THIS IS GOING NOWHERE

Listen, I still have plenty to learn but am friends with line pilots with alot of regionals and alot of majors. Have never heard one good thing about GSI. Just negative. I know the industry is pretty negative now anyways but Gulfstream seems like a bad gig. Keep your money and build PIC time. Thats what I am doing. Only have 800TT but over 700PIC. Would love a job flying turbines right now but there aren't too many for us low timers so im stuck flying corporate guys in a Baron. I'm tired of that airplane but im liking the multi pic time that is entering my logs every week. Do what you gotta do, just listen to the line guys and the high timers. They know more then any of us what is important.

 

[dondk]

I am going to try address a few of the GIA-Pinnacle questions...

But first... To CRJ200FO... If you have been flying the line for what 4 months now? Once the displacement come through you'll be riding the couch!

To answer Longhorns statement...

Those in class BEFORE 9/11 but not through training AND those with solid class dates after 9/11 were basically thrown into a pool. Gulfstream, NWA and Pinnacle somehow struck a deal where a GIA PFT can pay about $7K more and get a shot at Pinnacles CRJ. Now while this is going on.. all those thrown back into the pool are being selected AFTER GIA PFT'ers. One of my classmates who was IN sim training 9/11 but not completed came back 12 months later after some 45 or so GIA dudes went ahead of him.

I cannot say if CRJ200FO is one of those additional $7K people, but we did hire some honest to goodness non PFT'ers from GIA.

While it may not burn too many guys in the left seat who fly with CRJ200FO it does burn some of us other guys who had friends who got "bumped" for a PFT dude.

Finally.. I had the pleasure or unfortunate pleasure of sitting in on a few sessions with the 500 hr GIA guy in the sim. All I will say is that originally I did not know the guy was a low time 1900 driver (I am also a former 1900 driver). But.. his performance or lack of was really depressing, he dropped out 2 session's later, after dragging his partner down to near failure.

I am not saying the CRJ is hard, but we all know plenty of good guys with some serious time under their belts washing out. To throw a 500 hour dude into the fire is just not right....

I am guessing CRJ200FO is the 800 hour guy we all heard about.. Congrats on the job dude, and enjoy the right seat for what... 3 years? Those guys you bumped on the way in will upgrade well before you'll ever see the left seat!

Again I am not trying to be bitter or angry, but justice has not been served here, to the guys waiting or to the guys paying an additonal $7K and standing a slim chance of passing.

Many of us know some really good GIA people, the question Superfueler should be asking himself is exactly WHAT he thinks he will actually accomplish after completing the program? An instant job with HIS carrier of choice? Regardless of PFT or not, there are little if any jobs or programs out there that are going to guarantee you anything.

Best of luck in your endeavors...

 

[hyper]

CRJ200FO,

Actually, as I'm sure you know, when you start a trip with someone new one of the first things you talk about is where you were working before. So my GIA background comes out very quickly. Nobody cares. Of course it's possible that you're right and they are just not telling how they really feel. If so, then they are very good at hiding it. Besides, I really don't care. They can think whatever they want.

No, I don't "keep lining his pockets." I paid him once before I knew of his Scab background. If I had it to do over again, I'm honestly not sure what I would have done.

Fair enough. Fly safe.

 

[bobbysamd]

Inclined playing field

Funny that you say that you don't want to dwell on the implications of PFT.

First of all, if you're going to quote me, quote me accurately. I said above that I did not want to dwell on the moral and ethical implications of P-F-T.

You say that PFT creates an incline instead of an even playing field. Well, so do about a thousand other things: race, gender, and (your personal favorite) age . . . . There is no such thing as an even playing field. Welcome to the real world.

That's right. Let's add wartime and recession, two other reasons I attribute to being me being slammed. Wartime and recession stopped hiring ten years ago. Both are at least slowing down hiring these days - for most everyone.

Yes, it is true that a lot of people finish their 250 and do not get hired permenantly However, they are not just "turned loose." I finished my 250 in Feb. Gulfstream then hired me as a CFI for their academy until I could pick up another job.

All right, then, so the place took care of you. Any other examples? What about non-CFI pilots? The program appears to be of the greatest interest to low-timers who completely reject the very notion of giving flight instruction. So, once more, with 250 more hours in their logbooks, many of these same individuals are still short of regional hiring mins. I read where you say that "most of them had under 1000 hours" (I quoted you accurately). What about the others? I would submit that many of them will find they need to get their CFIs and instruct to build their hours. And, I'd further submit, they won't be happy about it.

I find it curious that Mesa would hire ex-Gulfstreamers when it has a ready supply of grads from its own school. I instructed there. Mesa knows its own grads very well, so I find it hard to believe that it would eschew them in favor of ex-Gulfstreamers.

I would not say that I am obsessed with Gulfstream per se, but P-F-T has been a sore spot with me for ten years. I hate to see pilots being taken advantage of by dream salesmen. And dreams, in my .02 opinion, are what you are paying your $53,994 for. But, as the saying goes, you pay your money, you takes your chances.

 

[CRJ200FO]

I am going to try address a few of the GIA-Pinnacle questions...

But first... To CRJ200FO... If you have been flying the line for what 4 months now? Once the displacement come through you'll be riding the couch!

Actually, with all the hiring that took place after I got here, I should still be able to hold a line if the number of hard lines remains the same come January.

To answer Longhorns statement...

Those in class BEFORE 9/11 but not through training AND those with solid class dates after 9/11 were basically thrown into a pool. Gulfstream, NWA and Pinnacle somehow struck a deal where a GIA PFT can pay about $7K more and get a shot at Pinnacles CRJ. Now while this is going on.. all those thrown back into the pool are being selected AFTER GIA PFT'ers. One of my classmates who was IN sim training 9/11 but not completed came back 12 months later after some 45 or so GIA dudes went ahead of him.

I cannot say if CRJ200FO is one of those additional $7K people, but we did hire some honest to goodness non PFT'ers from GIA.

No I did not pay 7k to come to PCL and neither did any other GIA pilots. Honestly, where do you guys come up with this stuff? Yes, everyone that goes to GIA pays for their initial 1900 trng but no one pays to come to PCL. We all went to the same interview process that everyone else did.

While it may not burn too many guys in the left seat who fly with CRJ200FO it does burn some of us other guys who had friends who got "bumped" for a PFT dude.

Actually it does bother me that this happened. I never heard about it until I was about half way through sim trng. I agree that the guys hired before us should have gotten class dates first. Unfortunately, we don't decide that, mgmt does. I don't understand why you hold a grudge against us for something mgmt decided.

Finally.. I had the pleasure or unfortunate pleasure of sitting in on a few sessions with the 500 hr GIA guy in the sim. All I will say is that originally I did not know the guy was a low time 1900 driver (I am also a former 1900 driver). But.. his performance or lack of was really depressing, he dropped out 2 session's later, after dragging his partner down to near failure.

I am not saying the CRJ is hard, but we all know plenty of good guys with some serious time under their belts washing out. To throw a 500 hour dude into the fire is just not right....

Check your facts a little better next time. There was only one GIA pilot to wash out of trng. He was a CA at GIA and had many thousands of hours. The probable cause for his washout was the fact that his name can be found listed on the scab list for the CAL '83 strike. I guess the check airman took care of the situation since HR didn't. The 500 hour GIA pilot succussfully passed his checkride and is now in MEM with a hard line.

I am guessing CRJ200FO is the 800 hour guy we all heard about.. Congrats on the job dude, and enjoy the right seat for what... 3 years? Those guys you bumped on the way in will upgrade well before you'll ever see the left seat!

Again I am not trying to be bitter or angry, but justice has not been served here, to the guys waiting or to the guys paying an additonal $7K and standing a slim chance of passing.

Many of us know some really good GIA people, the question Superfueler should be asking himself is exactly WHAT he thinks he will actually accomplish after completing the program? An instant job with HIS carrier of choice? Regardless of PFT or not, there are little if any jobs or programs out there that are going to guarantee you anything.

Best of luck in your endeavors...

Yeah, I'm the 800 hour guy everyone's heard of. And yes, I will be enjoying that right seat for about 3 years. I'm not too concerned.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: Inclined playing field

First of all, if you're going to quote me, quote me accurately. I said above that I did not want to dwell on the moral and ethical implications of P-F-T.
That's right. Let's add wartime and recession, two other reasons I attribute to being my being slammed. Wartime and recession stopped hiring ten years ago. Both are at least slowing down hiring these days - for most everyone. All right, then, so the place took care of you. Any other examples? What about non-CFI pilots? The program appears to be of the greatest interest to low-timers who completely reject the very notion of giving flight instruction. So, once more, with 250 more hours in their logbooks, many of these same individuals are still short of regional hiring mins. I read where you say that "most of them had under 1000 hours" (I quoted you accurately). What about the others? I would submit that many of them will find they need to get their CFIs and instruct to build their hours. And, I'd further submit, they won't be happy about it.

I find it curious that Mesa would hire ex-Gulfstreamers when it has a ready supply of grads from its own school. I instructed there. Mesa knows its own grads very well, so I find it hard to believe that it would eschew them in favor of ex-Gulfstreamers.

I would not say that I am obsessed with Gulfstream per se, but P-F-T has been a sore spot with me for ten years. I hate to see pilots being taken advantage of by dream salesmen. And dreams, in my .02 opinion, are what you are paying your $53,994 for. But, as the saying goes, you pay your money, you takes your chances.

Sorry about the abbreviated quote. Sometimes I get lazy when I type.

Yes, it is true that not everyone who goes to GIA will get a regional job right out of the FO program. Some of them will have to instruct a little just like I did. But at least for right now, most of the people finishing the program are going to Pinnacle. Everyone that goes to GIA gets told upfront that they have no guarantee of a permanent job. They aren't even guarenteed that they will get the 250 hours. GIA has failed dozens of applicants in the two years I was there and refunded their money. If you can't pass the checkride, you don't make it to the line.

You're right that Mesa does not take many GIA grads. They have only taken a couple that I can think of. In the last 7-8 months most have gone to Pinnacle or Colgan. Mesa does take the occasional GIA grad though.