Gulfstream selling LEFT SEAT now!

[CRJDog]

From website!!​

​

"INQUIRE ABOUT OUR LIMITED
- Enrollment Part-121 Programs
- Gulfstream Fast Track Captain​

• Interview Before Starting Training
• Secure Permanent Hire Seniority
• Acquire Airline Pass Rights
• Build Over 1,250 Flight Hours For As
Little As $39 Per Hour
• Receive ATP And Type Rating
• Obtain Captain Upgrade
• Assure Career Path To Left Seat "


Sad, Truly Sad!!

 

[searching]

I'll tell you what is sad; looking at their website periodically looking for this kinda crap.

Who friggin cares.

 

[Catbird]

You can believe Johnny Ornstein/crooked stocktrader/CEO of Mesa keeps an eye upon the idiots in the flying proffesion. Most likly a bidding war could break out among these Titans of U.S. Commercial Aviation for access to these morons. I can see it now. "Captain for 35.00 per. hour, special deal for individuals with cash today"

 

[suupah]

When is someone going to step in and regulate this garbage. This industry is the wild, wild west.

 

[voteno]

When is someone going to step in and regulate this garbage. This industry is the wild, wild west.

Pilots are WHORES........PERIOD. We are our own worst enemy!

 

[sleepy]

Wow, that is $48,750 you have to pay to fly a King Air. What a disgrace.

 

[U-I pilot]

sheesh.....if they make a list of pilots that do this, they wont even need passengers!

 

[BSkin]

I'll tell you what is sad; looking at their website periodically looking for this kinda crap.

Who friggin cares.

Freakin' beautiful reply!!!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Who friggin cares.

We all should care. It's programs like this--programs that replace paid pilot positions with "pay for time" positions--that are throwing this industry into a downward spiral. Why should an airline pay pilots when there are eager hopefuls willing to drop $100K for the exact same job?

I met a pilot while I was in sim training who was an ex-Gulfstream "pilot". He was openly proud of being "prior 121", and even more proud of his position as a Colgan SF-340 FO. Which, I might add, he needed to sign a training contract for. No, he wasn't 21 years old. He was in his 30's. So don't use the "young and naive" argument here.

It is true. We are our own worst enemies. For every one of us maintaining integrity while trying to make this into a decent career, there is another who is in it for the stigma and here to "just have some fun."

 

[SkyBoy1981]

We all should care. It's programs like this--programs that replace paid pilot positions with "pay for time" positions--that are throwing this industry into a downward spiral. Why should an airline pay pilots when there are eager hopefuls willing to drop $100K for the exact same job?

I met a pilot while I was in sim training who was an ex-Gulfstream "pilot". He was openly proud of being "prior 121", and even more proud of his position as a Colgan SF-340 FO. Which, I might add, he needed to sign a training contract for. No, he wasn't 21 years old. He was in his 30's. So don't use the "young and naive" argument here.

It is true. We are our own worst enemies. For every one of us maintaining integrity while trying to make this into a decent career, there is another who is in it for the stigma and here to "just have some fun."

I'll drink to that.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I'm not trying to fan any flames, but just because you sign a training contract at Colgan doesn't make you guilty of P-F-T. Nor does it mean you have a "Gulfstream mentality". I'm not really fond of the fact that I signed a training contract, but looking back into airline history. You would be surprised how many "quality" regionals were either P-F-T or required you sign a training contract. They are an unfortunate outcome of the rapid exodous of pilots to other "better" jobs. Considering the amount of overhead required to operate an airline, it makes sense that management would like to re-coup some of the costs of training by asking pilots to stick around for a year.
Personally, I am disgusted by the way flight training that supposedly leads to an airline seat is marketed. There is so much more to the job than the fancy uniform, glass cockpits and "lifestyle". Thats all a bunch of smoke and mirrors that hardly scratches the surface of the day-to-day reality of being an airline pilot. Especially, a pilot flying in the Northeast during the winter monthds. However, this is the reality of today's marketplace and pilot job market. I think that the whole paradigm is changing before our very eyes, if it is for the better. Time will tell us.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[FlyChicaga]

Where did I associate a training contract with PFT?

Even major airlines have training contracts. ATA is one, with a 24-month contract. As far as I know, this is still in effect.

There is a major difference between 'pay for training' and 'pay for job.' Many use the terms synonymously; however, they are quite different.

 

[bobbysamd]

May I throw up now?

It is indeed on the Gulfstream website, front and center. Are four-stripe epaulets and scrambled-egg hat visors included in the package, or are those extra? How about the babes? John Travolta with four stripes. It's a whole new fantasy!

This really is sad, and pathetic and disgusting. What makes it especially sad is there actually are people who will pony up the money to pay for a "captain" "job" at Gulfstream. P-F-T has stooped to a new low level.

This new Gulfstream scheme is proof positive that an any aviation job can be purchased, even a Captain's job. For that reason alone, as FlyChicaga wrote, all professional pilots should care, and here's why. How can pilots expect management to respect them when all it has to do is put their jobs up for sale? It's surprising that Uncle Frank in his "genius" did not sell Continental jobs after he declared bankruptcy in the '80s.

Once more, there is no jealousy, pity-seeking, envy, bitterness or rancor here. How can one be jealous or envious of something one can buy? I repeat: Anyone can buy a job. All it takes is money. It takes no special talent or qualifications to buy a job.

Once again, the Beatles said it best:

I’ll buy you a diamond ring my friend
If it makes you feel alright
I’ll get you anything my friend
If it makes you feel alright
’cause I don’t care too much for money
For money can’t buy me love

Just give it time. If "airline" "captaincies" are for sale, can love be far behind??

Finally, training contracts are not P-F-T. Compare a training contract to a form of bond or security to ensure the company earns back what it expended for your training. Note that I wrote what the company expended for your training. With P-F-T, you pay the company for your training. Training bonds and training contracts are not comparable to P-F-T in any way.

 

[igneousy2]

We are all whores, there are two bit hookers and whores for the stars. There are many ways to whore yourself.

1. Pay for flight time
2. PFT
3. Training contract
4. getting paid poverty wages.
5. Paying for your Commercial/ATP -- that's right you're a whore if you paid for your own ratings, many foreign airlines pay pilots and take them from ZERO through Airbus FO...all with pay. Truth hurts huh?

If we all stuck together we could have made the airlines pay for all of our ratings!

yeah right!

"People who live in glass houses..."

Later

 

[climbhappy]

Quote: We Are All Whores!

Repsectfully disagree....

Customers refused to pay $1400 at the last minute to fly a 300 mile leg.

they started scouring the web for deals.

In an industry that gouged the customer all during the nineties only to miss the oncoming trainwreck of a recession at the start of the decade dismisses the whore argument.

ref recesssion of early 80's; early 90's

finally, the failure of the industry's pilots to regulate itself with minimum times and ratings for equipment allow 300 hour wonders to step into a fully automated jet and land it by clicking off the autopilot at the minimums shout by the GPWS.

I taught a stock broker friend how to fly a visual in a 737 sim at CLT and land it in 20 minutes.
My point: to be a gear bitch in todays fully automated RJ requires a pulse, sobriety, and the ability to chew gum. (notice i didn't say Captain)

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying for training v. P-F-T

Paying for your Commercial/ATP -- that's right you're a whore if you paid for your own ratings, many foreign airlines pay pilots and take them from ZERO through Airbus FO...all with pay.

(emphasis added)

That is a gross oversimplification for the only reason is that we're here and they're there. Two separate systems. Go change it.

The only way that pilots in America can have their training paid for from zero time is to join the military - and not every individual is qualified to be a military pilot, though those who are not could probably become civilian pilots.

The same is true for foreign airlines. I used to train foreign airline students. These people are sought out by their airlines and are hand-picked to become pilots - just as individuals are hand-picked to become military pilots.

The long and short of it is you cannot compare paying for your ratings to paying for training. P-F-T is an employment issue, only. As a condition of employment you agree to remit money to the airline in return for it training you. Thus, by paying for training, you purchase a job. That's it, plain and simple.

 

[flying4food]

Bobbysamd,

I'm curiously waiting to see how you twist the unfortunate 9E accident on PFT!! I know it's eating away at you!!! I could tell by your tone in the above post!!!

 

[RiddleMan80]

Does anybody know if they are selling the right seat? If so, what are the minimums for that? Just curious if that would be a good way to start my career.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Does anybody know if they are selling the right seat? If so, what are the minimums for that? Just curious if that would be a good way to start my career.

Give it a rest man. Can't you find SOMETHING better to do on reserves?

 

[bobbysamd]

I'm curiously waiting to see how you twist the unfortunate 9E accident on PFT!! I know it's eating away at you!!! I could tell by your tone in the above post!!!

I'm not aware of it, sorry. If you are insinuating that I believe that P-F-T crews are unsafe, I do not, never have and never will. They still have to take their 121 rides with the feds. My issue is how they got to that point. I do not believe that P-F-T is a safety issue. P-F-T is an employment issue, as well as ethics, pride and fraud issues.

Does anybody know if they are selling the right seat? If so, what are the minimums for that? Just curious if that would be a good way to start my career.

Review of your profile strongly suggests that you are a Riddle C(R)APT grad. If so, sorry it didn't work out for you, but you should have known better. Another example of P-F-T fraud/disappointment; I regret that it came from ERAU. To answer your question, yes, Gulfstream sells right seats.

 

[Sunnfun]

Apparently there are enough people out there who are willing to pay to be employed, that's just something that the company exploits. Nothing wrong with that, supply an demand, right? Unfortunately there is both demand and supply.

What I'm wondering is, what would the pax think, if they actually knew that the pilots flying them are not qualified enough to get the job in the first place?

When I talk to people who actually flew on Gulf$tream, they thought they were flying with "Continental".

 

[VABB]

Apparently there are enough people out there who are willing to pay to be employed, that's just something that the company exploits. Nothing wrong with that, supply an demand, right? Unfortunately there is both demand and supply.

What I'm wondering is, what would the pax think, if they actually knew that the pilots flying them are not qualified enough to get the job in the first place?

When I talk to people who actually flew on Gulf$tream, they thought they were flying with "Continental".

They would probably crap right there in their seats. Wonder if one of the big networks would be interested in airing a special about this on one of their news magazines. They enjoy airing something about airlines and it seems this would be something they would love to investigate and publicize, especially the part about these companies only carrying a name such as Continental.

 

[Sunnfun]

They would probably crap right there in their seats. Wonder if one of the big networks would be interested in airing a special about this on one of their news magazines. They enjoy airing something about airlines and it seems this would be something they would love to investigate and publicize, especially the part about these companies only carrying a name such as Continental.

Since we as pilots don't seem to be able to handle this (which is proven by the sheer existence of schemes like Gulf$tream's, now even the expansion to the left seat), maybe the only viable approach would be to educate the customers? Sure, they only care about the ticketprice; but what if their safety is concerned? They'll jump ship pretty quick, I guess.

Just a thought.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Okay, I kinda hate PFT'ers, and even more those who pay for the time-building crap like gulfstream, but:


Paying for the left seat should get the FAA interested, I would think.

We are running a very great risk of killing a few planeloads of folks if this nonsense continues.


Wankers with starry-eyed jet fantasies will get a chance to jerk of to turboprop PIC time until they move on to the job they 'deserve'.

Nothing is sacred anymore.

Anyone who does this should have their certificates shredded.

 

[bobbysamd]

Crewmember quals

Paying for the left seat should get the FAA interested, I would think . . . .

You would think, except that Part 121 concerns itself only with cremember qualifications and not their hiring, e.g.:

Sec. 121.383 - Airman: Limitations on use of services.

(a) No certificate holder may use any person as an airman nor may any person serve as an airman unless that person --

(1) Holds an appropriate current airman certificate issued by the FAA;

(2) Has any required appropriate current airman and medical certificates in his possession while engaged in operations under this part; and

(3) Is otherwise qualified for the operation for which he is to be used.

(b) Each airman covered by paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall present either or both certificates for inspection upon the request of the Administrator.

(c) No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday.

and

Sec. 121.437 - Pilot qualification: Certificates required.

(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft.

(b) No certificate holder may use nor may any pilot act as a pilot in a capacity other than those specified in paragraph (a) of this section unless the pilot holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings for the aircraft concerned, and an instrument rating.

So, sadly, P-F-T remains an employment issue. I, personally, have heard of nothing in the law that bars pay-for-training, i.e., pay-for-job, schemes.

It is also an education and public awareness issue. Educating would-be big-time jet captains that they hurt themselves and expose themselves to potential fraud by P-F-Ting. But, it won't work. Would-be pilots, after hearing all the war stories and frustration about overcoming obstacles to build experience, would opt to take the easy way out and P-F-T. It's human nature. They could care less about its harm; they are getting what they want, now. It's all about "me" and "now." Public awareness of how many "captains" got their jobs. However, most patrons care only that they got where they're going on time and safely. They could care less that their "Continental" flight was operated by Gulfstream or their crew bought their jobs.

 

[suupah]

I wonder what the passengers would think if they knew the pilots that were flying their plane were about one paycheck away from bankruptcy as a way of life.

 

[CitationLover]

i don't think this is a safety issue at all. they will have 1250 hours in the airplane before upgrading to the left seat. how they got the hours is another story. what they are doing is simply stating the current facts now, as before they would hire the FO after their 250hr and when they hit 1500 they would move over to the left seat. now they're advertising it, however in reality it is no different except they are locking that individual in for the extra 1,000 hours.

gulfstream pft is no different than any of the highly publicized, highly advertised schools abound in flying and flight training magazine. paying for a seat or interview (w/ a bragged about 90% placement) is ethically no different. they all cost pretty much the same.

 

[DAL737FO]

O.K. I'm putting on my nomex, kevlar and flak jacket. How is Gulfstream doing anything different than Delta Connection Academy, Regional Airline Academy, TAB Express etc. A person can buy a ticket on Delta.com and when they get out to the airport they are on a regional jet that could be flown by a Captain that paid for a training slot back in the early ninties and a First Officer fresh from the Delta Connection Academy. So does this make this crew a safety issue? I agree that we, pilots, are our own worse enemies. There will always be someone out there that will do it for cheaper, or worse yet free, in order to get ahead.

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[100LL... Again!]

Bobby-

I understand the point you are making, but you forget something.

The FARs are only a portion of the "real" rules that carriers must follow.

Read throught order 8400 and 8700 and all of the FSATs and HBATs and stuff we've never heard of.

Add to that the fact that a POI can attempt to 'discourage' certain types of action.

The FAA normally does not supervise more than a small portion of company checking events.

That can change.

I've seen FAA inspectors 'drop their pen' in during a sim checkride once in a while, when the applicant made a small, but failing error on an otherwise perfect checkride.

If I were Gulfstream's POI, I would practically need a cot and a microwave, because I would living in their offices if this crap started.

The only people who need to buy left-seat experience are either

1) VERY inexperienced already; and

2) IMPATIENT AS ALL GET OUT.


THIS is who you want in the left seat?

Let's not kid ourselves- a 1900 could be a single pilot airplane.

The FO is there to make a crew. The FO can suck, and you can still adequately operate.

But a sucky low time PFT CA with a sucky low time PFT FO? Come on.

I don't know what the wash-out rate for gulfstreamers at 9E is, but I'm guessing a few at least.

There are few legitimate excuses for a 121 FO to wash out at another 121 job.

All it proves is that they never really should have been at the previous job.

Here's hoping their FSDO puts on the latex glove and does what is right.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream v. other P-F-T purveyors

O.K. I'm putting on my nomex, kevlar and flak jacket. How is Gulfstream doing anything different than Delta Connection Academy, Regional Airline Academy, TAB Express etc.

DCA is not P-F-T. The only thing you're doing there is paying for your initial ratings. You still have to instruct there for 800 whatever hours before you can interview at Comair or wherever.

The difference now is at Gulfstream you can buy a Captain's job. Before, it sold only FO jobs. If there was any doubt before, buying a Captain's job is clearly a case of displacing another pilot job.

The way I read the ad, you start at Gulfstream as a P-F-T FO and upgrade to a P-F-T Captain. Don't be surprised if the place eventually establishes a P-F-T street captain program. I, for one, can hardly wait.