Gulfstream Academy Closed???

[FlyForFood_NOT]

You know guys, just give it some time. I'm sure some day (although don't wish that to anyone) there will be a mishap where a Captain made a mistake due to an overload in the cockpit in heavy IMC weather and the PFT dummy (Pro trained Flap Toggler, hehe) will be of no use cause of his amazing 200 TT time ("but wait, it's all turbine time that I bought!").

Once the public public finds out about something like that, it'll be the end of this PFT BS. So save all your angers, can't do much about it now.

I personally think that it's a dangerouns game some of the academies play with all the unaware passengers in the back (nevermind the awesome deals those PFTs get out of them). Safety was always my #1 thing and always be.

Many of us know that no PFT will ever beat the experience of working hard on your hours and ratings. At least when you finally "make it there" you'll know you earned it.

just my 2 c.

 

[350DRIVER]

FlyForFood_NOT,

I agree with your post. The sad thing is that these fools who continue to undercut this industry will continue to make excuse after excuse after excuse about "how" they are 121 "trained" and deserve that position(BS). Fortunately common sense and logical reasoning would state that is complete Bull $h!t and they know it deep down in their hearts.(what a joke) They are nothing more than cowards who have undercut this industry and now have to "attempt" to make excuses up to try and justify why they belong where they are today, they will get absolutely NO respect from most though since they deserve absolutely none. I truly feel for the general public who gets stuck flying on Gulfjoke. They have earned nothing, they have only "bought" it....

3 5 0

 

[B190Captain]

You know guys, just give it some time. I'm sure some day (although don't wish that to anyone) there will be a mishap where a Captain made a mistake due to an overload in the cockpit in heavy IMC weather and the PFT dummy (Pro trained Flap Toggler, hehe) will be of no use cause of his amazing 200 TT time ("but wait, it's all turbine time that I bought!").

Once the public public finds out about something like that, it'll be the end of this PFT BS. So save all your angers, can't do much about it now.

I personally think that it's a dangerouns game some of the academies play with all the unaware passengers in the back (nevermind the awesome deals those PFTs get out of them). Safety was always my #1 thing and always be.

Many of us know that no PFT will ever beat the experience of working hard on your hours and ratings. At least when you finally "make it there" you'll know you earned it.

just my 2 c.

Sounds like you do wish it.

 

[stillaboo]

Nice rotation of the ladies 'B190'. Variety is the spice of life!

-Boo!

 

[FlyForFood_NOT]

no B190

I don't wish it, I don't wish it to anyone. It just seems like that's the only thing that's gonna stop this PFT nonsense one day.

And I agree with quite a few of the posts in here - an FO's seat should be occupied by someone professionally trained AND paid to be there - not by someone who's just learning, buying turbine 121 time, and throat cutting the industry. Later on, such id@#ts complain why their next job's FO salary is so low, DOUCH?

 

[s3jetman]

Well hello one and all. I don’t post much on here, allot of the time I just come here to read what it is that is going on. I have read and read on this matter of PFT and Gulfstream. Okay now I am going to put in my 2 cents. Just so you don’t have to speculate or look too hard I will give a little history lesson to all that read this. I went to collage to study become an anesthesiologist. For two years I did this then took up flying with my father, who is a high school principal. I came down here from western Kansas were the nearest airport, with airline pilots, is about 4.5hours away. And absolutely no aviation guidance or history. Since then I have gotten all my ratings and completed the first officer program at Gulfstream in 10 months. Now it was only during and after all this that I learned about all this PFT talk. The one thing I realize as I read these thread is that the same few people time, and time, and time again keep saying the same thing over and over. Now all I have to say to that is shut the he** up or find some new material to talk about. Also I continue to see people write thing that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. As a first officer I flew the airplane, I did the take off, I told the captain to put my gear and flaps up and down, I set the power, I was in charge of almost everything except the PIC responsibilities. And even some of those he delegated to me. So all I have to say is if you don’t know what the f**k you are talking about shut up!!! And if you think that they hold you hand through this and that our pilots are substandard. Again you don’t have a clue. It’s funny because we have airline captain after airline captain sending there son here for the program. And if you think anyone can come in here and make it through, you wrong just last month we failed a captain’s son because he could not perform to standards. So once again I don’t feel as though the information you’re presenting is at all accurate. Then comes the paid for job. Again if you don’t know what you’re talking about shut up. We do not get a permanent hire position and we do not get jump seat privileges. I look at as an internship. Every major company and business in this country takes on interns and does not pay them shi*. They to are taking away jobs from individuals and yet nothing bad is ever said about someone paying thousands of dollars for and education that will get them an internship which will lead to a job somewhere in that market. O and just what is it when you pay $80,000.00 for training at these glorified flight schools and you get a guaranteed interview or job, what the he** is that? How are they any different than Gulfstream? Then comes the cry of pay your dues. Well let me see I am $54,000.00 in debt I have three jobs and lived in my car for 3 months going through training. But I am sure you did all that as well as CFI. My closing is this. Times change my friend! I feel a lot of people who bad mouth programs, are just pissed off because they did not have the opportunity we have today. If you are just pissed of because we have a better chance than you well what can I say? This is what, you need to stop using the computer, the internet, the cell phones, the auto pilot etc. etc. The world changes and if you not willing to change then you will be left behind.

 

[B190Captain]

no B190

I don't wish it, I don't wish it to anyone. It just seems like that's the only thing that's gonna stop this PFT nonsense one day.

And I agree with quite a few of the posts in here - an FO's seat should be occupied by someone professionally trained AND paid to be there - not by someone who's just learning, buying turbine 121 time, and throat cutting the industry. Later on, such id@#ts complain why their next job's FO salary is so low, DOUCH?

IMHO, PFT was around when the industry was thriving and now on it's downside. To an extent I do agree on what you are saying. The right seat should be occupied by a competent-qualified pilot and not some amateur. But don't blame the mess we are in and the crap wages some make to fly regional jets on PFT.

IMHO, I believe that Unions that represent majors have no business representing regionals. That has alot to do with the throat-cutting of the regionals and I am glad that the folks at Comair see it and are going to make a stand about it.

Crap wages have been around for a long time at the regional level and now since the equipment has evolved to jets the wages are still as if you were flying a Metro. This is because of pilots are voting yes to crap contracts.

Regionals underbidding each other for feeder contracts are also a problem that is devaluating the profession. So wake up and smell what you are shovelin because PFT is a drop in the bucket in this mess.

IMHO,

Oh and thanks boo!

Fly Safe!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

As a first officer I flew the airplane, I did the take off, I told the captain to put my gear and flaps up and down, I set the power, I was in charge of almost everything except the PIC responsibilities. And even some of those he delegated to me.

That clarification is appreciated. I mean it sincerely.

It’s funny because we have airline captain after airline captain sending there son here for the program.

Not funny at all, but hilarious. I assume you mean captains at the majors. My experience with so many airline captains is they have their heads buried in the sand and have no clue about aviation beyond their little corner of the world. Especially hiring practices. They hear "121 time" and say "great, go for it" without understanding all the ramifications of P-F-T.

And if you think anyone can come in here and make it through, you wrong just last month we failed a captain’s son because he could not perform to standards.

You are knowledgable. Tell us, then, how stringent are the entry and admission requirements for Gulfstream? I submit that the prime entry requirement is the ability to pay (which is the prime entry requirement for most other flight schools). And will this captain's son get a refund, in whole or part, of his P-F-T tuition? And how soon?

Therein lies the rub (at least one of them) about P-F-T. That possibility of not making it through provides license to wash out people and keep their money. That sounds like fraud to me. How do you know for sure that you will receive fair treatment? How do you know that you will be given a fair chance to succeed. What recourse do you have for recovering your $23,940? According to the Gulfstream website, you pay a $1,000 deposit and the balance on the second day of class. Accordingly, the company has a clear interest in holding on to that money.

After all, this company is a business. Its main interest is to make money. It's very hard to get back money after you have paid it. Its employees are beholden not to some trainee but to the person who signs their paycheck. It does not matter if the person is a captain's son or a flight instructor's son. The conflict of interest potential is apparent.

It is different when a company hires you and expends its resources to train you. It is investing money in you. It has an interest in seeing you succeed and earning a return on its investment.

We do not get a permanent hire position . . .

Why not?? Does the place not have enough confidence in its grads to hire them? I've heard otherwise, by the way. I've heard that Gulfstream does hire some of its P-F-T grads for permanent FO jobs. The website says in the FAQ section that P-F-T grads are considered for employment.

What are your chances of getting on with other commuters after Gulfstream (I realize that Pinnacle hires Gulfstream grads.). You have to look at the 250 hours you obtained at Gulfstream in terms of the overall minimum times required by regionals. Your profile shows 860 hours. Most regionals want at least 1200 and more. How do you propose to build those hours? You might have to circle back and flight instruct. By the time you meet regional mins your 250 121 hours will be stale.

[A]nd we do not get jump seat privileges. I look at as an internship . . . .

No, my friend. It is a job. Employment. Did you not receive a paycheck for your flight hours at $8.00 per hour? Were payroll taxes not deducted from your gross wages? By every definition, that is employment. That is not the same as an internship.

Times change my friend! I feel a lot of people who bad mouth programs, are just pissed off because they did not have the opportunity we have today . . .

Not so. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

My knowledge of P-F-T dates back thirteen years. Air Midwest had such a program before Mesa bought it. P-F-T really sprung up around 1991-'92. I could have P-F-T'd. I had interviewed at the commuters but was not hired. My checkwriting ability could have bought me the job of my dreams, which insulted my intelligence because I was already qualified to be hired without having to pay. Maybe I should say my money would have bought me a class date. How would I have known for sure that my training and opportunity to succeed would be on the up-and-up and not short-circuited by a scam? Once more, once they have your money, it's hard to get it back.

Plain and simple, you do not pay an employer for a job. If you are good enough to be hired, you are good enough for the employer to train you. It's just as simple as that.

 

[flynething]

right on s3jetman!!!

does anyone believe that the aviation industry is a static industry? anyone think that it does not change in dynamics as the economy changes? anyone know what has happened to the military side of aviation over the past 15 years? anyone think that the "PFT" and "buy a job" are a sign of the times in aviation? and does anyone know why the 60 year old AA captain is so slow on taxi? -maybe it is the $250 an hour he makes to taxi that plane. come on guys. times have and are changing. you don't need to be a history major to know that things are vastly different than they were 30 years ago, and will be again in aother 30 years. think about a few things. aviation is 100 years old, for god sakes bob hope was just as old! is it possible that the 60 year old pilots making $250 an hour to taxi a plane are part of what is hurting the industry? i certainly place no blame with these pilots...they started in this industry when things were very different. times have changed, and these pilots are becoming a rare breed. but look at things in a realistic view. can the airlines afford to pay all senior captains $250 an hour in todays climate? ok, maybe if they were not lining their corporate pockets they might be able to squeeze by, but lets be realistic about this. is it possible that sites like cheapairlineticketsforalmostnomoney.com are taking money away from the industry? or maybe the regionals are slashing the throats of each other to make a buck, and in turn driving down wages and benefits? or how about the military. the military is no longer as big as it once was...less pilot jobs...UAV's...more pilots staying for a career instead of 6 or so years. so in response, more pilots flooded to the civilian market by these military cutbacks and lack of jobs. more competition out there. the flight instructor market?!?! flooded with hopefuls, seems like as many instructors as students some times! and talk to a few, most will tell you the same thing...'i need another job to keep up'...'i am barely getting by'...'ramen noodles...done that'. maybe PFT was the spawn of satan himself, but maybe it was a change brought about by the industry and the changes it has endured. if you all want to live like it is 1972, pre-deregulation, high times where the captain is god, the f/o is a peon who should keep his mouth shut and eyes open, flight attendents wear dresses and cute little hats, and the passengers all dress in their sunday best to go for an airplane ride...get real. things have changed. new century...new industry. i get a kick out of some people like bobby and the like. 3435 posts, each about 3 pages long telling others why they are wrong and why they are right. drop the whole PFT thing. do as you want and let others do as they want...after all, if you are right...the PFT people will never get a job and you will have your pick of the litter. why complain if this is what you truely believe. sure...educate the young on the options, but give them the freedom to make the choice. maybe PFT will be the industry norm in 100 more years...who knows?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

3435 posts . . .

Make that 3437 with this post . . .

[E]ach about 3 pages long telling others why they are wrong and why they are right.

I stop writing when I'm finished making my point.

do as you want and let others do as they want...after all, if you are right...the PFT people will never get a job and you will have your pick of the litter.

Do you believe that I'm trying to dissuade people from P-F-T'ing because I want the jobs they're seeking? That is not the case at all. I am not looking for flying jobs. I have no vested interest in this issue except for presenting what I believe to be a dark side of professional aviation. I am not trying to convince people not to P-F-T for my personal gain. I have nothing to gain, pecuniary or otherwise, from opposing P-F-T. The only benefit that I may derive is that those who might consider paying for training will give it some thought before succumbing to the "zero time to airline in nine months" pitch and realize they could, and I emphasize, could, later be blackballed by their peers. Have I also mentioned fraud, conflict of interest, and not getting your money back if you wash out? Does Gulfstream refund any portion of your money promptly if you wash out? Once someone has your money, it's awfully hard to get it back.

Once more, I'm not looking for aviation jobs, so I am not picking from the litter, such as it is these days.

maybe PFT will be the industry norm in 100 more years...who knows?

I should hope not.

Just so you know, twelve years ago there were companies who made fully qualified applicants, i.e. those who had at least 1500 total-500 multi and more, and who had good experience, such as 135, pay for their training. These were experienced pilots, my friend. Not 250-hour wonders. Hence, my sense of outrage, and that of others as well.

I hope that point is clear.

 

[climbhappy]

the PFT question

all good opinions but here's where i think this PFT thing is gonna bite hard.

when these guys start upgrading, never having flown freight ,corporat as captains or ran errands for their flight school cross country, I'll think you'll see incidents on the rise...

a chatau check airman told me where it not for 9/11, and the influx of quality guys, he was afraid of an accident happening/


I've heard the same thing from guys at comair.ASA.

You can't fool mother nature!


i'd like to see a study put forward gleened from the trainng records of all these folks.

 

[C601]

climbhappy,

WTF you talking about, the ONLY difference is between a PFT'er and yourself, if they where flying a B1900 is that they would be paying fly as an co-pilot, Vs you going the normal route.

They still have to pass the same exams, same check rides the same as yourself to be able to sit in the left or right seat. What you think just because the paid there way through there unsafer pilots. Thats the most stupid thing I have ever heard anyone say on here.

And not that i'm pro-pft, but have you heard of any accident from GA or Comair, involving a PFT'er at the controls where ppl where killed. No.

incidents on the rise ??? Last I heard air incidents where falling, and that was last week.

And like I said i'm not pro-pft, but dont assume something, when you have no facts to back it up that pft'er are unsafer pilots.

 

[T-Gates]

C601-

You hit the nail on the head. Some people can't find any other way to slam PFT except by saying that those who PFT are unsafe pilots.

There is NO evidence to support this fact. It is just an easy slam for people to make.

It is everyone's right to hate PFT, but do it for real reasons. Not just reasons that sound good.

--03M

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T safety

C601 makes a fair point. P-F-T is not necessarily a safety issue - unless crew scheduling pairs a green captain with a low-time P-F-T'er.

No matter where you train or how you train, a 300 hour pilot is a 300-hour pilot. That's more than being green, but experience is a great teacher and it comes quickly after one gets the chance. Take Mesa. Those folks are 300-hour pilots, well-indoctrinated into Mesa line procedures, but are still 300-hour pilots. But after the first year, assuming they fly out their annual 1000 hours, they are now 1300-hour pilots, with most of that being 121 time.

For purposes of this discussion, I assume that Mesa FOs spilt the flying with their Captains, no matter whether the FO is a street hire or an MAPD grad. I make this assumption with confidence because I knew an MAPD grad who got hired and told us how on the very first trip he flew he split the flying and even got to make the first takeoff on his very first leg!

The gripe that I, for one, have with P-F-T programs boils down to fair treatment for all. Everyone should be considered fairly and equally. Ability to pay should not be the deciding factor, but, face it, folks, that's the bottom line, and what makes P-F-T so noxious. I reiterate my point above about P-F-T in the early nineties. Pilots who had earned their stripes could not be hired unless they paid for their training.

 

[Ace757]

Ok....i may be butting in where i don't belong. Im still relatvely new to this board, and I dont know how everyone feels, but I went to FSI, and dropped about 60k in ratings. Im not ritch by any means....I had school loans out the A$$ to be there. But i did it to get the best training possible, because I wanted to be the best pilot possible. Infact we have all paid for training. We all paid for our ratings weather it be at an academy or an FBO. It really comes down to how far in debt you want to be. If I wanted to get my CFI ratings here I would have to drop an additioal 15K...gratned if i get hired here I get paid back for the II and MEI. But if this is about money we are all guilty of PFT.

 

[KingAirer]

Thanks so much for your 2Cents.

But i did it to get the best training possible, because I wanted to be the best pilot possible.

Wow, those ads showing the father and sons really do work!

editors note: Post coated with extra sarcasm.

 

[T-Gates]

But i did it to get the best training possible, because I wanted to be the best pilot possible.

Sounds like someone had too much marketing "kool-aid"....


--03M

 

[Timebuilder]

Infact we have all paid for training. We all paid for our ratings weather it be at an academy or an FBO.

Since you are new, I have a recommendation and a comment.

1) Search the site under PFT. There are many threads where all of the aspects are explained.

2) Comment: yes, we have all "paid for (our) training", but this is not PFT. PFT is when you are paying someone to give you something besides the training necessary to be a pilot, and that "something" being a job. It's when you are paying money to a specific employer for the specific purpose of being permitted to fly for his company. In so doing, you displace an otherwise qualified pilot from the position which you are paying to occupy, and reducing the number of paid positions available by being willing to participate in this plan. At the very least, it is a form of bribery.

Maybe PFT is a little misleading as a term. Maybe it should be PFW, or Paid For Working.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pay for training v. pay for training

Infact we have all paid for training. We all paid for our ratings weather it be at an academy or an FBO.

Let's differentiate between earning your ratings and paying for training. It might sound the same, but it is not.

First off, absent someone who is willing to let you use his/her airplane and provide instruction gratis, in order to acquire their basic credentials, i.e. Commercial-Instrument, CFI, etc., everyone must rent an airplane in some form or another and pay an instructor to teach him/her. I'm not counting military in this equation because that is a different situation. The same is true if you become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, municipal planner, or whatever. You attend some sort of school or training program, for which you pay tuition, purchase books and materials, pay lab fees, etc., and you earn credentials, e.g. college degrees, that are accepted universally. That is earning your ratings, or degree, as the case may be.

With pay-for-training, you must remit money to the company for the training that it will provide to you as a condition of employment. This training is specific to the company and does not result in a universally-accepted credential. If you choose not to pay the company for your training, you will not be given employment. Hence, the difference between paying to earn your ratings and paying a company to train you as a condition of employment.

I agree with Timebuilder's comment about bribery. That's what it really boils down to.

Hope that helps with your understanding of P-F-T.

 

[1.3XVso]

Blah Blah Blah same c*** over and over. Give it up dude. Since you guys complain soo much about gulfstream its not like you'll want to work for them so whats the point.