Gulfstream Academy Closed???

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream

Bobby, over the past 2 years you have made it quite apparant that you hate PFT, dislike those who PFT, and those who offer PFT. And that you are in your current position because you were adimantley against PFT in the early-90's. That is all well and good, but I'm getting sick of the rhetoric . . . . You have done your part Bobby, hang up the hat and lay off PFT for awhile. We all know how you feel.

If you read the post third from the top you'll see that someone else and not me gave the Gulfstream FO program a dig. Then there was a comment or two following that one that gave the program further digs.

Just the same, I appreciate your response to my comments, as I would hope you would appreciate mine. To thine ownself be true.

Thanks, 350.

 

[Timebuilder]

Working toward a pilot job is like a competition.

Now, imagine you are watching a footrace at the olympics. Everyone starts the race at the sound of the gun. One runner cuts across the grass, hands a wad of money to an official, and rejoins the race on the other side of the track, finishing far in front of the pack.

Now, the runner might think this is ethical, after all, this is the way it goes, and we should just "live with it".

He might say, "hey, it's capitalism", or "I'm just as qualified a runner as the rest of these guys."

Would this runner be right? Or is this so obiviously and fundamentally wrong as to be ridiculous?

Friends, if this is really just every man for himself, and the end justifies any means, then we can dissolve the unions and accept the wages that we receive, according to what we have demonstrated that we deserve.

 

[bobbysamd]

Rosie Ruiz

Working toward a pilot job is like a competition.

Now, imagine you are watching a footrace at the olympics. Everyone starts the race at the sound of the gun. One runner cuts across the grass, hands a wad of money to an official, and rejoins the race on the other side of the track, finishing far in front of the pack.

Now, the runner might think this is ethical, after all, this is the way it goes, and we should just "live with it".

He might say, "hey, it's capitalism", or "I'm just as qualified a runner as the rest of these guys."

Would this runner be right? Or is this so obiviously and fundamentally wrong as to be ridiculous?

Friends, if this is really just every man for himself, and the end justifies any means, then we can dissolve the unions and accept the wages that we receive, according to what we have demonstrated that we deserve.

Good adaptation of the Rosie Ruiz Boston Marathon tale of years ago. You see what cutting in front of others did for her.

 

[350DRIVER]

Life is full of "shortcuts" and "easy way outs" however some do come with very harsh consequences and ramifications. There are plenty of anti-pft senior pilots that are on interview boards all across the line who had to get to where they are present day the hard way.. One day you and not I (fortunately) will have to answer for this "short cut" during some interview down the line and I am sure glad that it won't be me. Being a former Delta employee I was pretty fortunate enough to be able to network and meet quite a few of the "older salts" that had no choice but to come up the hard way and these pilots had (and still do) quite the influence on "who" got the interview and hired and I would rather buy ocean front property in Oklahoma before having to sit across the table in Atlanta and have to "explain" my past "choices" and how I got to where I am at right now... Good luck my friend is all I can say... I am sure you will counter the argument by saying that many of the Gulfstreamers who went through this program are now (present day) flying for UAL, DAL, SWA, Airways, etc, etc, I am sure "some" are ( I will not argue that with you) but look at the "hard" and fine numbers and you will see that they are very much in the minority.... Every time this topic comes up you cannot post the "numbers", instead you will counter the argument by just posting "opinions". There is also a reason why Pinnacle is the only regional to have the agreement with Gulfstream. (enough said)- Take a close look at this agreement... $20,000+ to make $8.00 per flight hour.... hmmmm..

I just happen to know one or two that took the "short cut" and wish they could step back in history and re-write it and change what they have done... I cannot see how or why you continue to argue in favor of this program since you are very nieve to look at the facts and realize just what is happening. 12,000 + furloughed guys on the streets and the practice of "renting" the right seat still goes on.... This picture is quite distorted and is a very ugly one whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Sometimes things are never forgotten and I hope for the day that I am on some interview board somewhere and I get an applicant that went through this program.. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I have nothing against you at all nor do I have a problem with "you",what I do have a problem with is "how" this program is set up and how it undercuts the industry as a whole. There is absolutely nothing "positive" that comes out of this at all other than someone with money can take a short cut and "rent" a seat out and take that opportunity away from some furloughed pilot who can't seem to find a job.

You can continue to distort the facts as much as you would like, it really does not bother me at all.... I am just extremely happy I did things the "right way" - You can personally attack me to he!! and back, which believe me it has no effect on me.

I am confident that most see the "big picture" and realize what these PFTers are doing to this industry. Even with blinders on it isn't overly hard to see.

3 5 0

 

[blade230]

You know 350, I can respect the way you climbed your way up, and I have many flight instructor friends from Riddle who went that route. But I also have NO shame in the way I made it to where I am, (PFT) You, or anybody else on this board will NOT make me think otherwise. The industry was sh#t, and there was no other way at the time I made the decision. I paid for the Stream with MY own money buddy, not my parents. So at least get that right.

I am sick and tired of people saying the majority of pilots hate PFTers. Do you know the majority of pilots in the world? I don't think so, and neither do I. But I am related to 4 current airline pilot who ARE on the interview boards of their respective airlines. Last I checked, they were all MAJOR Airlines. All of them, and THEIR/MY friends are aware of the route I chose, and have nothing negative to say. In many cases, advised me of the Gulfstream/Eagle Jet route considering the circumstances. I will admit there are SOME that look down on the PFT route. It IS possible that one day, I may not get a job because of it. But judging by your attitude, if you come before any interview pilots at MAJORS I know, which in honesty is over 11 pilots at 4 different majors (even though many of them Flight Instructed), you my friend will NOT get the job either.

One last thing, this is a common misconception about the "Stream". FO's fly the plane, not just pull the gear and talk on the radio. I personally "hand flew" alot more than 50% of the legs of my time at GStream. Maybe I was lucky, but that is how it was.

Fly Safe everyone,

Even Mr.350

Cheers

 

[Timebuilder]

But I also have NO shame in the way I made it to where I am, (PFT)

A lack of shame while doing things that normally would cause shame is a symptom of our declining culture. Shame is one of the hardwired emotions that helps us to keep our behavior in check. As we convince people that things like shame and stigma are harsh and judgmental, we lose the foundation of a cohesive, orderly society.

You, or anybody else on this board will NOT make me think otherwise.

My aim isn't so much to make you feel otherwise, but to guide others away from PFT.

Do you know the majority of pilots in the world? I don't think so, and neither do I.

Here's a clue: when I first thought of being a pilot, the most common commercial aircraft was the DC3. Would you say that I have a large enough base from which to form my opinon? I sure do.

But I am related to 4 current airline pilot who ARE on the interview boards of their respective airlines. Last I checked, they were all MAJOR Airlines. All of them, and THEIR/MY friends are aware of the route I chose, and have nothing negative to say. In many cases, advised me of the Gulfstream/Eagle Jet route considering the circumstances.

For every airline guy that I have met that thinks PFT is okay, I have met three others who think it should be avoided like the plague. Now, consider this: if they are your relatives, and found out you went the PFT route, what are the likely to say? IF they are your friends, they might be impressed that you were flying a turboprop for an air carrier. No critical oberservations there, either. Better ask some people you don't know, someone like me. My opinion? Like an affirmative action hire, you will never know if you would be were you are, were it not for the manner in which you bypassed the more accepted route to your position. Would you have been able to stick it out, been good enough, and won the race on your own merits? You'll never know. That feeling would eat at a person of conscience, gnawing the gut from the inside out. A person with no shame will perhaps be able to live with it, and rationalize the behavior.

One last thing, this is a common misconception about the "Stream". FO's fly the plane,...

Did you know that you can drive an Indy car, fly a vintage warbird, and even be an astronaut on a rocket to the international space station?

All it takes is a check. Just like a job at a PFT airline!

 

[Dean]

I just happen to know one or two that took the "short cut" and wish they could step back in history and re-write it and change what they have done...

350....would you care to reveal some of your sources in order to prove this quote is not falacious. I am one that does believe in data. Show me the data and show me the way. If you cant backup what you say, then consider your post Irrelevant. If your so passionate about this, then it should not be a problem. I will be glad to give you an email address to respond to as well.

And also, your assuming the experience of one to be the same as the whole. Any person who believes this is truly a dumb ???.

If had to guess, this is mostly your oppinion and nothing else.

As of now, I dont look at PFT as cutting in line. I look at it as investment in myself. I look at a flying carreer as a business. This is just a step you take to invest in yourself to help your business out. What improves your market value makes you better off. I dont look at this as cutting in line. In a free trade society, there is no cutting in line. It is every man for himself. If you have the means to invest in your business, then go ahead. I for one will not be back here trying to stab you in the back and crying like an 8th grader.

 

[wil]

Get it straight- Gulfstream and others that sell the right seat are not PFT!! They are buy a job!! The pilots that PFT'd in the past normally went through a program like Flight Safety which did not have a direct connection to the airline. It was a way for the Regionals to defray training costs.
blade230- you should be ashamed of your path- I for one would not hire you based on your Gulfstream past- I don't care if you fly like Gordon Cooper!
350DRIVER- glad to see we agree on something!!

 

[Timebuilder]

It is every man for himself.

If this is your actual belief, and not adolescent posturing, then you sir can never join a union. Your position, if a factual representation of your core values, will make it impossible for you to join in collective bargaining in good faith.


Opinions, as you charge they are, have value. They are formed by experienced people over time. They are the substance and foundation of our society. If you just go by the numbers on paper, and see no value in people other than yourself, then you have started down the road to a very bad place, a place where evil fourishes. It is the beginning of anarchy.

 

[T-Gates]

You can continue to distort the facts as much as you would like, it really does not bother me at all.... I am just extremely happy I did things the "right way" - You can personally attack me to he!! and back, which believe me it has no effect on me.

I am confident that most see the "big picture" and realize what these PFTers are doing to this industry. Even with blinders on it isn't overly hard to see.

State one example where I "distorted the facts".

I am glad that you are happy with yourself. I'm happy with myself too. I sleep well at night. I don't sit here living in fear that someone might spite me down the road because I PFT'ed at one point in my career. If someone feels the need to exercise thier opinions on a hiring board the so-be-it. I don't really care.

The only thing that steams me about theese discussions is when people attack the flying skills of those who PFT'ed, just because they PFT'ed.

Go ahead, and continue your "we hate PFT" back patting session.

I'm out.

--03M

 

[bobbysamd]

Goodwill v. Ruthlessness

As of now, I dont look at PFT as cutting in line. I look at it as investment in myself. I look at a flying carreer as a business. This is just a step you take to invest in yourself to help your business out. What improves your market value makes you better off.

(emphasis added)

As long as you're putting this in a business perspective, consider cutting in line in terms of the goodwill it generates. If you were in some other business, you would not engender very much goodwill by pulling end runs on people and generally going against generally-accepted business practices. P-F-T is not a generally-accepted business practice in aviation. The generally-accepted, time-honored practice in avation is to build experience one step at a time.

I dont look at this as cutting in line. In a free trade society, there is no cutting in line. It is every man for himself.

Yessir. Indeed, it is a dog-eat-dog world out there. Knife the other guy in the back before he knifes you. Situational ethics.

Let me let you in on a little secret about aviation, Dean. Aviation is very much a personality business. As you try to climb the ladder the people you meet along the way become very important to you. If you develop a reputation as someone who is out only for himself/herself, you may not develop the important contacts you need to get ahead. Once again, we're talking goodwill, which is as important a business investment as your tangible assets.

In a free trade society, there is no cutting in line. It is every man for himself. If you have the means to invest in your business, then go ahead. I for one will not be back here trying to stab you in the back and crying like an 8th grader.

You sound very much like a flight instructor we had at ERAU. This fellow was out strictly for himself. He worked plenty of hours and made money - but violated several rules, including FAA rules, in doing so. Not too many people liked this fellow. He had interviewed at a couple of regionals and was in the right age bracket, but had no takers. Other instructors at Riddle in the same age bracket were being hired. Could it be that the aforementioned instructor antagonized people with his dog-eat-dog attitude?

What you say, Dean, about being ruthless may be true in such businesses as industry and advertising. However, in aviation, you need friends and contacts. You won't make many friends and contacts through ruthlessness.

Once again, you need to spend a little time around professional aviation before making the declarations you make. Aviation is one business in which you do not want to alienate people or make enemies.

 

[350DRIVER]

Dean,

No offense but looking at your profile it is easily understood why you are so nieve and unaware of the effects regarding Gulfstream and the industry so I won't waste a whole lots of time responding to your reply. In response to you thinking I made the information up, all I can say is that I have absolutely no reason to do that but if that is what you truly believe then great for you and please give yourself a pat on the back if it helps you feel better..... Some responses are better left alone and yours would be a perfect example. I will provide you no details, names, or anything else since you are "lost" when it even comes to this subject BUT fortunately you sir are in the minority. Looking at your profile explains alot and I would "assume" "Dad" that you are funding your son's training at this program (which hopefully is not the case) but if it is it all makes sense on how you "attempt" to justify your actions by helping him undercut this industry.

If your so passionate about this, then it should not be a problem. I will be glad to give you an email address to respond to as well.

Once again, believe as you wish (trust me it has no effect on me or the others that are clearly aginst this practice) and fortunately you ARE in the minority on this issue. It is very clear "why" the program is a complete negative and I am sorry that you do not see this. This however is your problem and not mine. I do believe that 12,000+ pilots on the street and the majority of pilots on this board (not just myself) understand all about this program. You may want to change the brand of coffee you are drinking. Just do us all a favor and do a search on this topic and you just may be a tad amazed and possibly even learn a little more about this program. There are plenty of threads about this topic on this board.

The facts do not lie fortunately, I will end it with that.....

3 5 0

 

[Dean]

TimeBulder .....

Your position, if a factual representation of your core values, will make it impossible for you to join in collective bargaining in good faith.

I have never been in a union and dont yet know a whole lot about collective bargaining, but I somehow guess it's supposed to make everyone better off, and make those that are part of this Union more happy. After all, PFT stole this position that should be occupied by a paid pilot, and therefor made someone worse off.

Well, speaking from no experience on this issue I can only tell you what my ECON textbook says about it. "When a union raises the wage above the equilibrium level, it raises the quantitiy of labor supplied and reduces the quantity of labor demanded, resulting in un-employment. Thos workers who remained employed are better off, but those who were previously employed and are now unemployed at the higher wage are worse off" (Mankiw 593).

It looks like the union has accomplished what you claim PFT does. It nocks a man out of his seat. I guess Union are good only if you get the benefit/Insider. So there again it seems like everyman is for himself.

Let me make this straight. I am not totaly 100% against the unions, but lets say i make $32. dollars an hour, you would be a fool to strike for say 35 or some other figure. Only unless the industry standard was double that then maybe getting a union to help fight would be considered. Sometimes its better to have a job than to not have one at all.


350

Looking at your profile explains alot and I would "assume" "Dad" that you are funding your son's training at this program (which hopefully is not the case) but if it is it all makes sense on how you "attempt" to justify your actions by helping him undercut this industry.

Fist off, you got the dad part right. Although the only thing my boys are flying is paper airplane off the porch. I have one thats 4 and 2. so thats not the reason why I enjoy debating this issue, and by no way when i say "every man for himself" did i mean I could careless about anyone else. I dont have that attitude or mentality. What I meant is at the end of the month when the bills come due, and if you dont pay them no-one else will. in the end its yourself that makes your living.

This situation reminds of some animosity between 2 Fire depts. I was a Vol. on one of them and if the chance opened up for a new hire I would be first in line, but the other one which even paid better had a spot come up. I approached some of my fellow FD members about this and they said if you go there dont come here. I thought of that as the most immature response i have ever heard. Because it is every mans right to persue what ever he wishes, no one should stand up and say wait here with us you will get there someday. YEA and someday we will be dead. life dont wait on anybody. And for anyone that stands up and says dont do that even though you will be better by doing it, should be reminded. They dont pay the bills I do, and if they would like to, well, were would you like me to wait.

You won't make many friends and contacts through ruthlessness

Look...I respect your concern about the path that were discussing, but no where did i say I was a ruthless, heartless, spineless person. I do respect my fellow aviators, and I enjoy meating people, and I also love hearing peoples success storys. I have no problem with people; although, I would not respect someone questioning my abilities as a pilot If I opted PFT, The FAA im sure does not have 2 different standards for requirements to be met regarding the route one takes.

 

[blade230]

Ok timebuilder, that was a good response, you, at least, avoided putting people down and being verbally abusive, while getting your view across. I however, as you would guess, disagree, but I am entitled to my opinion, as you are entitled to yours. Timebuilder I also respect the fact, not that you care, that you are trying to educate, where as others are just plain bashing without ANY facts, just assumptions.

This argument about PFT, and about who knows more pilots and their views about the path to the right seat, is ridiculous. So, this is my last post on the matter.

Just so the others KNOW, I AM NOT ASHAMED of PFT, and NEVER will be. The only time I will be ashamed of myself is, if I harm people without reason, put people down for no reason, disgrace my country or race(s), or don't stand up for my family or friends.

If circumstances were different, I WOULD have flight instructed, not because it makes any of you that did, better pilots, though many of you THINK you are, but mearly beacuse of money. I would have rather spent the money on a new car .

Cheers,

 

[wil]

blade with your attitude I doubt you would have made it as a CFI. Maybe you are a good gear puller but that's all you are since you bought a seat. Let me know how it goes when your son asks how you got your first airline job. "Well son, daddy wrote a check to Gulfstream..."

BTW, the CFI experience is invaluable!

 

[blade230]

yea wil,

i'm sure your a real "great" captain too with your attitude. i could sit hear and trash you, but that would put me at your level.

thanks but no thanks.

 

[1.3XVso]

blade with your attitude I doubt you would have made it as a CFI. Maybe you are a good gear puller but that's all you are since you bought a seat. Let me know how it goes when your son asks how you got your first airline job. "Well son, daddy wrote a check to Gulfstream..."

BTW, the CFI experience is invaluable!

Hey cap!! I already know what to say to my son check it," Well son, a bunch of old farts and low timers that talked like 10000 hrs pilot kept crying about PFT and winning so daddy yes indeed rented a seat on a b1900 but guess what son? What daddy ? Well i got extra multi time and turbine and as well as 121 exp so the more they cry the more i laugh". Man you dudes need to stop crying man! **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** your making me sad with all these complaints.


PFT RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wil]

Sounds good 1.3! Just what the kid needs to hear, don't work hard just write a check! Nice life lesson. Maybe you and the other "buy a seat" people will usher in the next generation of bottomfeeders and our kids will be beating this dead horse 20 years from now! Wil

 

[1.3XVso]

Who said I'm writing a check! ALL LOANS BUDDY. And tell you what I'm also going to start working on my single and double I. So dude please relax. And if your such a mentor tell me why the majority of CAPTAIN FROMS BIG AIRLINES send there kids to the FO program?!





WANA WANA BING BANG

 

[Timebuilder]

I have never been in a union and dont yet know a whole lot about collective bargaining, but I somehow guess it's supposed to make everyone better off, and make those that are part of this Union more happy. After all, PFT stole this position that should be occupied by a paid pilot, and therefor made someone worse off.

Yes, the idea of a union is to make the voices of many heard as one. Empirically, the purpose is to help the membership be "better off". This doesn't always happen, and the rift between the RJDC and ALPA is a good illustration.

As far as unions are concerned, PFT is a different issue. Few unions exist at the level where expereince is built, pilots are new, and PFT exists. My point is that the principle of union memebership is one that is diametrically opposed to the idea of "every man for himself". If this individualistic attitude is a core value, then the idea of collective bargaining, or acting together for the betterment of all, is anathema.

Well, speaking from no experience on this issue I can only tell you what my ECON textbook says about it. "When a union raises the wage above the equilibrium level...

The question then is, where is the equilibrium level? Right now it is in flux, and I dare say it is moving to a new, lower level. The decimation of the industry is having a tremendous downward pressure on wages, both within and without the unions. We will have to see how low it goes. If you have your eye on a 121 job over the long term, the chances that you will have no choice but to join a union are very good. If there is a strike, will you walk the picket line, or will you cross? "Every man for himself?" Think it over.

It looks like the union has accomplished what you claim PFT does. It nocks a man out of his seat.

I don't think so. The union acts against market forces, but only to a certain point. No contract could have kept all of the furloughed pilots working in this business environment. A man gets "knocked out of a seat" because the seat is no longer needed when either the higher-than-equilibrium wage or the lack of demand for transportation make their respective inputs into the market equation. In the case of PFT, that seat still exists, but is now filled with a pilot who has purchased the position of a required crewmember. If PFT left no one in the seat, you would be correct in your comparison to the union situation you cited from your textbook.

I guess Union are good only if you get the benefit/Insider. So there again it seems like everyman is for himself.

In order to benefit directly from a union, you have to be a dues paying member, but unions exert upward pressure on wages for those who are not members also. For example, a TV station in Philadelphia has successfully resisted all efforts of AFTRA to bring in the union. How? This station pays so well and provides such good benefits, no one will sign a card! The benchmark for this was set by the two other network stations, who are AFTRA contract stations. The employees at the non-union station have clearly benefitted from the union contracts at their competition.

Sometimes its better to have a job than to not have one at all.

Sometimes.

However, if you use "every man for himself" as your guide, you will fight every fight alone. Decisions made to strike for a higher wage are not always made with wisdom, and anyone with union expereince will tell you that. United's history of union activity and it's union leaders, will show you that it's often a matter of personalities, instead of good judgement.

The FAA im sure does not have 2 different standards for requirements to be met regarding the route one takes.

No, but they aren't the pilots you will regularly fly with, the pilots who will sit across the interview table from you, or the pilots who will question the idea of "every man for himself".

The only time I will be ashamed of myself is, if I harm people without reason, put people down for no reason, disgrace my country or race(s), or don't stand up for my family or friends.

That's a great start. I'd like to see you add "lower the standards of my profession, and allow creeps to take advantage of young pilots" to the list. I think there is a lot of value in that idea.

For all of us.