Gulfstream Academy Closed???

[bobbysamd]

Goodwill v. Ruthlessness

As of now, I dont look at PFT as cutting in line. I look at it as investment in myself. I look at a flying carreer as a business. This is just a step you take to invest in yourself to help your business out. What improves your market value makes you better off.

(emphasis added)

As long as you're putting this in a business perspective, consider cutting in line in terms of the goodwill it generates. If you were in some other business, you would not engender very much goodwill by pulling end runs on people and generally going against generally-accepted business practices. P-F-T is not a generally-accepted business practice in aviation. The generally-accepted, time-honored practice in avation is to build experience one step at a time.

I dont look at this as cutting in line. In a free trade society, there is no cutting in line. It is every man for himself.

Yessir. Indeed, it is a dog-eat-dog world out there. Knife the other guy in the back before he knifes you. Situational ethics.

Let me let you in on a little secret about aviation, Dean. Aviation is very much a personality business. As you try to climb the ladder the people you meet along the way become very important to you. If you develop a reputation as someone who is out only for himself/herself, you may not develop the important contacts you need to get ahead. Once again, we're talking goodwill, which is as important a business investment as your tangible assets.

In a free trade society, there is no cutting in line. It is every man for himself. If you have the means to invest in your business, then go ahead. I for one will not be back here trying to stab you in the back and crying like an 8th grader.

You sound very much like a flight instructor we had at ERAU. This fellow was out strictly for himself. He worked plenty of hours and made money - but violated several rules, including FAA rules, in doing so. Not too many people liked this fellow. He had interviewed at a couple of regionals and was in the right age bracket, but had no takers. Other instructors at Riddle in the same age bracket were being hired. Could it be that the aforementioned instructor antagonized people with his dog-eat-dog attitude?

What you say, Dean, about being ruthless may be true in such businesses as industry and advertising. However, in aviation, you need friends and contacts. You won't make many friends and contacts through ruthlessness.

Once again, you need to spend a little time around professional aviation before making the declarations you make. Aviation is one business in which you do not want to alienate people or make enemies.

 

[350DRIVER]

Dean,

No offense but looking at your profile it is easily understood why you are so nieve and unaware of the effects regarding Gulfstream and the industry so I won't waste a whole lots of time responding to your reply. In response to you thinking I made the information up, all I can say is that I have absolutely no reason to do that but if that is what you truly believe then great for you and please give yourself a pat on the back if it helps you feel better..... Some responses are better left alone and yours would be a perfect example. I will provide you no details, names, or anything else since you are "lost" when it even comes to this subject BUT fortunately you sir are in the minority. Looking at your profile explains alot and I would "assume" "Dad" that you are funding your son's training at this program (which hopefully is not the case) but if it is it all makes sense on how you "attempt" to justify your actions by helping him undercut this industry.

If your so passionate about this, then it should not be a problem. I will be glad to give you an email address to respond to as well.

Once again, believe as you wish (trust me it has no effect on me or the others that are clearly aginst this practice) and fortunately you ARE in the minority on this issue. It is very clear "why" the program is a complete negative and I am sorry that you do not see this. This however is your problem and not mine. I do believe that 12,000+ pilots on the street and the majority of pilots on this board (not just myself) understand all about this program. You may want to change the brand of coffee you are drinking. Just do us all a favor and do a search on this topic and you just may be a tad amazed and possibly even learn a little more about this program. There are plenty of threads about this topic on this board.

The facts do not lie fortunately, I will end it with that.....

3 5 0

 

[Dean]

TimeBulder .....

Your position, if a factual representation of your core values, will make it impossible for you to join in collective bargaining in good faith.

I have never been in a union and dont yet know a whole lot about collective bargaining, but I somehow guess it's supposed to make everyone better off, and make those that are part of this Union more happy. After all, PFT stole this position that should be occupied by a paid pilot, and therefor made someone worse off.

Well, speaking from no experience on this issue I can only tell you what my ECON textbook says about it. "When a union raises the wage above the equilibrium level, it raises the quantitiy of labor supplied and reduces the quantity of labor demanded, resulting in un-employment. Thos workers who remained employed are better off, but those who were previously employed and are now unemployed at the higher wage are worse off" (Mankiw 593).

It looks like the union has accomplished what you claim PFT does. It nocks a man out of his seat. I guess Union are good only if you get the benefit/Insider. So there again it seems like everyman is for himself.

Let me make this straight. I am not totaly 100% against the unions, but lets say i make $32. dollars an hour, you would be a fool to strike for say 35 or some other figure. Only unless the industry standard was double that then maybe getting a union to help fight would be considered. Sometimes its better to have a job than to not have one at all.


350

Looking at your profile explains alot and I would "assume" "Dad" that you are funding your son's training at this program (which hopefully is not the case) but if it is it all makes sense on how you "attempt" to justify your actions by helping him undercut this industry.

Fist off, you got the dad part right. Although the only thing my boys are flying is paper airplane off the porch. I have one thats 4 and 2. so thats not the reason why I enjoy debating this issue, and by no way when i say "every man for himself" did i mean I could careless about anyone else. I dont have that attitude or mentality. What I meant is at the end of the month when the bills come due, and if you dont pay them no-one else will. in the end its yourself that makes your living.

This situation reminds of some animosity between 2 Fire depts. I was a Vol. on one of them and if the chance opened up for a new hire I would be first in line, but the other one which even paid better had a spot come up. I approached some of my fellow FD members about this and they said if you go there dont come here. I thought of that as the most immature response i have ever heard. Because it is every mans right to persue what ever he wishes, no one should stand up and say wait here with us you will get there someday. YEA and someday we will be dead. life dont wait on anybody. And for anyone that stands up and says dont do that even though you will be better by doing it, should be reminded. They dont pay the bills I do, and if they would like to, well, were would you like me to wait.

You won't make many friends and contacts through ruthlessness

Look...I respect your concern about the path that were discussing, but no where did i say I was a ruthless, heartless, spineless person. I do respect my fellow aviators, and I enjoy meating people, and I also love hearing peoples success storys. I have no problem with people; although, I would not respect someone questioning my abilities as a pilot If I opted PFT, The FAA im sure does not have 2 different standards for requirements to be met regarding the route one takes.

 

[blade230]

Ok timebuilder, that was a good response, you, at least, avoided putting people down and being verbally abusive, while getting your view across. I however, as you would guess, disagree, but I am entitled to my opinion, as you are entitled to yours. Timebuilder I also respect the fact, not that you care, that you are trying to educate, where as others are just plain bashing without ANY facts, just assumptions.

This argument about PFT, and about who knows more pilots and their views about the path to the right seat, is ridiculous. So, this is my last post on the matter.

Just so the others KNOW, I AM NOT ASHAMED of PFT, and NEVER will be. The only time I will be ashamed of myself is, if I harm people without reason, put people down for no reason, disgrace my country or race(s), or don't stand up for my family or friends.

If circumstances were different, I WOULD have flight instructed, not because it makes any of you that did, better pilots, though many of you THINK you are, but mearly beacuse of money. I would have rather spent the money on a new car .

Cheers,

 

[wil]

blade with your attitude I doubt you would have made it as a CFI. Maybe you are a good gear puller but that's all you are since you bought a seat. Let me know how it goes when your son asks how you got your first airline job. "Well son, daddy wrote a check to Gulfstream..."

BTW, the CFI experience is invaluable!

 

[blade230]

yea wil,

i'm sure your a real "great" captain too with your attitude. i could sit hear and trash you, but that would put me at your level.

thanks but no thanks.

 

[1.3XVso]

blade with your attitude I doubt you would have made it as a CFI. Maybe you are a good gear puller but that's all you are since you bought a seat. Let me know how it goes when your son asks how you got your first airline job. "Well son, daddy wrote a check to Gulfstream..."

BTW, the CFI experience is invaluable!

Hey cap!! I already know what to say to my son check it," Well son, a bunch of old farts and low timers that talked like 10000 hrs pilot kept crying about PFT and winning so daddy yes indeed rented a seat on a b1900 but guess what son? What daddy ? Well i got extra multi time and turbine and as well as 121 exp so the more they cry the more i laugh". Man you dudes need to stop crying man! **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** your making me sad with all these complaints.


PFT RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wil]

Sounds good 1.3! Just what the kid needs to hear, don't work hard just write a check! Nice life lesson. Maybe you and the other "buy a seat" people will usher in the next generation of bottomfeeders and our kids will be beating this dead horse 20 years from now! Wil

 

[1.3XVso]

Who said I'm writing a check! ALL LOANS BUDDY. And tell you what I'm also going to start working on my single and double I. So dude please relax. And if your such a mentor tell me why the majority of CAPTAIN FROMS BIG AIRLINES send there kids to the FO program?!





WANA WANA BING BANG

 

[Timebuilder]

I have never been in a union and dont yet know a whole lot about collective bargaining, but I somehow guess it's supposed to make everyone better off, and make those that are part of this Union more happy. After all, PFT stole this position that should be occupied by a paid pilot, and therefor made someone worse off.

Yes, the idea of a union is to make the voices of many heard as one. Empirically, the purpose is to help the membership be "better off". This doesn't always happen, and the rift between the RJDC and ALPA is a good illustration.

As far as unions are concerned, PFT is a different issue. Few unions exist at the level where expereince is built, pilots are new, and PFT exists. My point is that the principle of union memebership is one that is diametrically opposed to the idea of "every man for himself". If this individualistic attitude is a core value, then the idea of collective bargaining, or acting together for the betterment of all, is anathema.

Well, speaking from no experience on this issue I can only tell you what my ECON textbook says about it. "When a union raises the wage above the equilibrium level...

The question then is, where is the equilibrium level? Right now it is in flux, and I dare say it is moving to a new, lower level. The decimation of the industry is having a tremendous downward pressure on wages, both within and without the unions. We will have to see how low it goes. If you have your eye on a 121 job over the long term, the chances that you will have no choice but to join a union are very good. If there is a strike, will you walk the picket line, or will you cross? "Every man for himself?" Think it over.

It looks like the union has accomplished what you claim PFT does. It nocks a man out of his seat.

I don't think so. The union acts against market forces, but only to a certain point. No contract could have kept all of the furloughed pilots working in this business environment. A man gets "knocked out of a seat" because the seat is no longer needed when either the higher-than-equilibrium wage or the lack of demand for transportation make their respective inputs into the market equation. In the case of PFT, that seat still exists, but is now filled with a pilot who has purchased the position of a required crewmember. If PFT left no one in the seat, you would be correct in your comparison to the union situation you cited from your textbook.

I guess Union are good only if you get the benefit/Insider. So there again it seems like everyman is for himself.

In order to benefit directly from a union, you have to be a dues paying member, but unions exert upward pressure on wages for those who are not members also. For example, a TV station in Philadelphia has successfully resisted all efforts of AFTRA to bring in the union. How? This station pays so well and provides such good benefits, no one will sign a card! The benchmark for this was set by the two other network stations, who are AFTRA contract stations. The employees at the non-union station have clearly benefitted from the union contracts at their competition.

Sometimes its better to have a job than to not have one at all.

Sometimes.

However, if you use "every man for himself" as your guide, you will fight every fight alone. Decisions made to strike for a higher wage are not always made with wisdom, and anyone with union expereince will tell you that. United's history of union activity and it's union leaders, will show you that it's often a matter of personalities, instead of good judgement.

The FAA im sure does not have 2 different standards for requirements to be met regarding the route one takes.

No, but they aren't the pilots you will regularly fly with, the pilots who will sit across the interview table from you, or the pilots who will question the idea of "every man for himself".

The only time I will be ashamed of myself is, if I harm people without reason, put people down for no reason, disgrace my country or race(s), or don't stand up for my family or friends.

That's a great start. I'd like to see you add "lower the standards of my profession, and allow creeps to take advantage of young pilots" to the list. I think there is a lot of value in that idea.

For all of us.

 

[Timebuilder]

And if your such a mentor tell me why the majority of CAPTAIN FROMS BIG AIRLINES send there kids to the FO program?!

I don't know who you know at major airlines who do this, and I question their "majority" status.

I, for one, am very glad that I do not know them.

 

[Dean]

What to Do?

If there is a strike, will you walk the picket line, or will you cross? "Every man for himself?" Think it over.

Look, The first thing you should ask yourself is Why did I take this job. When a person agrees to do a job for someone, he should be aware of the in and out of what he is going to be doing. I assume when a pilot gets employed by an airline he knows what he will be paid and should have an understanding of what Promotions are based on. YOU TAKE THE JOB KNOWING this.

And if for some reason Management screwed me, I would Just leave. No use in working for someone you hate.

As for your question, I would ask Does Unions pay all the bills while on strike? If so, then I could maybe see the point in striking, but I was raised where your word is your bond. If you agreed to something, then you do it. No breaking your word. I'll be darn if I would gamble every thing I have work for in life for maybe a reason i agree or disagree with. I owe it to myself and my family to provide finacial security. I dont want my job to move south.

 

[Timebuilder]

And if for some reason Management screwed me, I would Just leave. No use in working for someone you hate.

It isn't always that easy. You invest several years with a company, and have others depending on you...well let's hope you don't have to go through that.

I would ask Does Unions pay all the bills while on strike?

Sometimes there is a strike fund. Theoretically, since you were making a better wage before the strike than you would have otherwise, you put money away for this rainy day.

I had a little trouble following that last paragraph. If you are indeed familiar with your word being your bond, then understanding that PFT is a dishonorable undertaking should be well within your grasp.

There are good unions and there are bad unions, just like the people in them. Aviation is dominated by unions. Like the Philadelphia TV station that has avoided becoming a union shop, some carriers will have employees that enjoy their jobs and the corporate culture so much that they will not become unionized.

Good luck with your choice, because we have to live with the choices we make. Choose wisely.

 

[1.3XVso]

I don't know who you know at major airlines who do this, and I question their "majority" status.

I, for one, am very glad that I do not know them.

Um the students that I go to school with at the flightschool (3) their dads are Continental Captains or Checkairmen for Continental. And let me guess your soooo glad you don't know them because???? They told their kids to go to GIA? Dude your pathetic taking this deal out of hand man.Whatever dude.

 

[Timebuilder]

Dude your pathetic taking this deal out of hand man.Whatever dude.

My friend:

One of the guys I know has spent a great deal of time running the hiring interviews at Continental, and quite possibly hired your friends' dads.

Maybe I should tell him he let some klunkers slip through, eh? I know he would be VERY unhappy if some of his captains are endorsing PFT.

"Dude".

 

[1.3XVso]

Ok Cap!

 

[PCL_128]

My friend:

One of the guys I know has spent a great deal of time running the hiring interviews at Continental, and quite possible hired your friends' dads.

Maybe I should tell him he let some klunkers slip through, eh? I know he would be VERY unhappy if some of his captains are endorsing PFT.

"Dude".

Actually, your friend probably already isn't too happy with these dads. Let's just say that their names appear on a certain list for what they did in '83. You can find two of their endorsement letters on the GIA Academy website.

 

[1.3XVso]

Yeah I read that thread you posted a while ago about that. I don't know those boys. The only one i know are the one i started with in feb of 03

 

[wil]

Sorry 1.3 I read your profile and I realize that your young, dumb and full of... bad ideas on how to pursue a career. It is a shame to see someone kill their career at the start. Get your hours the honest way, seriously. At 22, 3 or 4 years seems like a long time but it is a drop in the bucket to what could be a 37 year long career. You may think you found a short cut but if your resume passes in front of me at my airline, I'm sorry, but I will have to pass. Good luck. I hope you will alter course- Wil

 

[1.3XVso]

Wil,

With all do respect i'm just acting like that because many of experienced pilots act DUMB and basickly like kids so to get all you guys worked up I act stupid too. And indeed I got most of you guys worked up. Anyhow see here my master plan. I use to attend CON-U-AIR and earned my PPL there. No way in hell i'm going to continue my training there. So I decided to go to Gulfstream (Flightschool) finish up there and get my CFI -I then go to the PFT ( as you call it) but I did'nt know the beef you guys have with the PFT until I started reading it about it on FLIGHTINFO. Therefore dude I'm sorry if i'm " cutting" but I got the money that I borrowed and move on man. Again like i said before I'd rather fly the b1900 then renting a seminole or a AZTEC and build time like that. Dude 250 hr, Turbine and 121 for about 96 bucks an hours?! Then CFI until i get about 1500 and apply for jobs! GIVE A DOG A BONE! I mean all you guys take it to the heart and honestly sounds like a bunch of old grown up kids crying. I thought this was a family , well i guess not.

 

[C601]

Sign Of the Times

Too All,

How every time a PFT thread comes up it always turns of the be the same old crap CFI's Vs PFTs. Come on give it a rest, this is a fourm that should be used to advise and help people who ever needs it, but it always turns out to be a bashing contest. the sad part there are no winners here, but yet next week someone asks a pft question and its the same old song over and over again.

As Far as GA is concered, around FXE right where there based, alot of flight schools are having a difficult time keeping there doors open. GA is not the 1st school to shut its doors and sure won't be the last at FXE. Like 1 of there own pilots said GA in terms of a bigger fleet has not grown in 5years.

Another thing I have seen in the General Aviation flying Mags, have you noticed alot less ads by flight training schools.

I think some people dont seem to get it around here CFIing is not for everyone, yes I truly believe that you come out been a better pilot and you learn alot with the experience. For me personally I don't think i would make to be a good instructor, i would not want to waste someones money in giving them what they came to pay for. As if i was the student I would want that CFI to be 100% commited in teaching me how to fly.

There is other ways and 1 of those to build experience is PFTing, how do I view it ? well after reading and searching this and other fourms about peoples views, i would generally agree that a person who pays for training, and after all thats what they are paying for along with some hours in a aircraft. could be taking away a job from someone that the airline should be paying them, and i am not talking about $8/hr, like $16-$20/hr.

But this is after all far from a perfect world, so for the most part the above goes out the window. I do feel it really is a shame that airlines have to make pilots pay to fly there aircraft, its almost a win/win deal for them. But like it has already been said unless professional pilots take a stand againest PFT type companies there is always going to me many many pilots out there who would fly for nothing just to try and get ahead, people out there who do that undermine and also make it harder for any other pilot out there, would wants to get paid what they have been trained and spent thousands to someday be compensated.

Then again look at all the Pilots who have accepted a job, Airline/company pays for there training and then within a few weeks they have jumped airline due to the garden been greener on the other side.

Or what about the 6000/hr+ pilot who gets laid off from 121 major that he got paid $90000+/yr, but b/c he can't get anything else he is forced to accept a 19K/yr position as a FO for some smaller airline. what about the little guy who is trying to get in the door, Is that right ? . Well its happing right now.

Where is this all leading to, i don't know, rambing thoughts

The last 2 points I would like to make is that i have never seen an article in a Mag or an Airline, or anykind of Pilot
association that has taking a stand againest PFT schools saying that your pilots will be blacklisted or a Major aviation spokes person stating that PFT wrong. Why is that ?

And my last point is, as far as the airlines as concered, as long as you meet there requirements and you are able to pass all the tests, checkrides etc.... , its seems they will hire you, if you had chosen the CFI or the PFT route, as long as you are able to do the job you where hired for.

 

[1.3XVso]

c601,

My apologies for being at there level. But I could'nt resist. Right with what you said.

 

[wil]

1.3- You didn't read my post- Gulfstream is not PFT. If you went to Flight Safety with a conditional offer of employment after passing their training that would be PFT. We can argue about PFT but IT is not sleazy like renting the right seat which Gulfstream is doing. I wish you success in your career and I truly hope you will alter course. The renting of a seat does nothing but lower the industry. If you ever try to show your ID at the counter and ride on my airplane you had better get that thumb moistened cause you will not ride on my plane!

 

[1.3XVso]

Wil,


Again I tried to be professional and honest and yet you have to come out and offend me. Dude were you beaten up while in school? Again I'm not going to alter my plans as far as i know its a pretty good so far. Id rather rent a b1900 then a seminole or a aztec flying VFR to airports around florida. But you know what Wil your right. I'm a piece of $hit and you are god.

 

[ChadCRJ]

wil,

If you ever try to show your ID at the counter and ride on my airplane you had better get that thumb moistened cause you will not ride on my plane!

hahaha wow.... an you work for an airline? I think its more like if I ever find out your my pilot I'll do myself a favor an walk off. Dude, time to grow up!

And sense I know your wondering. No I do not attend GA or have any say about PFT. I just like getting good laughs from people like u!

 

[1.3XVso]

wil,



hahaha wow.... an you work for an airline? I think its more like if I ever find out your my pilot I'll do myself a favor an walk off. Dude, time to grow up!

And sense I know your wondering. No I do not attend GA or have any say about PFT. I just like getting good laughs from people like u!

HAHAHAHAHHA LMAO CHADCRJ your funny man!

 

[Cardinal]

the students that I go to school with at the flightschool (3) their dads are Continental Captains or Checkairmen for Continental.

This is not a shining star example, nor do they in fact represent the "majority" as you earlier put it. The solidarity ethic of the Cal group, in particular that demographic whose offspring are beginning their careers now, is less than spectacular. But get this - I was advised by a Cal scab to NOT PFT/PFJ. Figure that one out.

CFI to 1500 hours then apply for a job

That's a fanciful notion. Through coincidence I've ended up with just about as much Beech time and total time as the scenario you posit above, and also lack a flying job right now. News Flash: 1500 hours, Part 121 experience, and $4.00 will barely buy you a cup of coffe at Starbucks. Aren't I glad that I'm not making payments on a $25,000 note for the privilege of being unemployed - but imagine if I were. Jobs are not exactly forthcoming in this market, a fact that is altered very little by some time spent in a whiz bang turbine. Believe me, I've researched the issue.

N9103M, etc. This thread is about Gulfstream. What would you rather discuss? How pretty your CalEx Beeches are? Well they're very pretty. The water warm in Nassau this time of year? I suppose no Comair/ASA thread should ever mention the RJDC, no Eastern thread should mention the strike and bankruptcy, no Mesa, SKywest, Air Wisky, ACA thread should ever mention their recent contracts, no Lakes thread should ever mention their pay, no United thread should mention minorities, etc. Oh, and while we're at it let's ban that pesky pitch vs power debate, as well. Then the board would be a happy place - And there would be no discussion whatsoever, eliminating the need and utility of the boards entirely.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T Discussions and "Discussions"

This thread is about Gulfstream. What would you rather discuss . . . .

The vehemence of some P-F-T defenders and apologists to those who disagree with their choice reminds me of Barry Goldwater's 1964 Presidential slogan, which was:

"In your heart, you know he's right."

Just a little food for thought.

 

[Apache54]

A better definition

A while ago I looked into the GIA program and decided against it... Not becuase it is a PFT thing - since PFT means you buy a job and from what I can determine, Gulfstream is not hiring out of their FO program (not sure of the facts here). Therefore, their program is not really PFT. If employment is conditional on the potential employee paying for his own 121 training, that is PFT. My beef with the GIA FO program is that their training is taking place in an aircraft where a first officer should be. I saw the program not as a way to get a job with GIA, but as a cheap place to get multi time since I have the GI bill and why not make it 121 time as well??? But I'd be sitting in the seat that deservedly belongs to a FO - a paid, union pilot.

I owe no leagance to GIA. I'm neither trying to support or defend PFT. But I think if someone goes to a place to build time, then good for them. You want to spend 25G to get 250 hrs of 1900 time, then good for you. Do it in an aircraft with passengers where a full time FO should be, shame on you. Maybe we need to rewrite the minimums for 121 time much like 135 time -- Make total time count for something.

 

[Pee_nuss]

Wil,


Id rather rent a b1900 then a seminole or a aztec flying VFR to airports around florida. But you know what Wil your right. I'm a piece of $hit and you are god.

The problem i have with your situation is your not renting a b1900. If you want to pay 700 an hour, and have no one on the plane, then sure, your renting your 1900 ok.

Your taking a job that someone at great lakes and other airlines do for money. They sit in the right seat and do their job as a COMMERCIAL pilot.

Maybe united will have a PFT and you can go get some time there too, or maybe that will be the standard someday. I can only hope

From someone with 1100 dual given

Nuss

PS hope your dad isnt furloughed so he can hook you up at united still, and just remember, you never know who may be doing the flying for gulfstream in a few months.....