Grievance ruling

[MetroSheriff]

Yes it would.
The same way I sat and waited for 5 years after getting my ATP for the job market to pick up. I didn't start blaming anyone or getting angry, it was the economy.
You can't blame a company for trying to do what companies are supposed to do (make a profit).

Good point too. Ialso dropped out of aviation for 6 years in 91 till the market picked up. The question remains if things are so bad why is DCI growing while mainline is furloughing. Something tells me we are going to hear of exponential growth on the regional side very soon, with the lions share going to SkyWest.

Hmmm....

 

[cmrflyer]

Here is another great point...........

ALPA gets them their jobs back, they start flying around empty aircraft. Six months later (Delta's 2.5 Billion Dollars cash has been pi$$ed down the toilet) and guess what? We are all fuct.
So I say wake up to reality, yes it blows, but that is the way it goes.
When I was on strike I didn't blame the company for not wanting to give us what we asked for, they would be mad if they had. I also didn't go mental when they started giving our aircraft to ASA and SkyWest, that boys is how business is done.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Here is another great point...........

ALPA gets them their jobs back, they start flying around empty aircraft. Six months later (Delta's 2.5 Billion Dollars cash has been pi$$ed down the toilet) and guess what? We are all fuct.
So I say wake up to reality, yes it blows, but that is the way it goes.
When I was on strike I didn't blame the company for not wanting to give us what we asked for, they would be mad if they had. I also didn't go mental when they started giving our aircraft to ASA and SkyWest, that boys is how business is done.

I don't disagree. It's business, and it sucks for labor. I would say however, that this is wet dream for Leo. If there is a grave dancer in the picture, it is DAL...and AMR, and NWA, and UAL etc, etc, etc....

 

[surplus1]

For those of you who wished us well, thank you. For those of you who were giddy at the prospect of dancing on our graves, now is your chance. Enjoy.

DALPA lost the grievance. I won't see a cockpit again for a very long time. Delta now has the freedom to do what they wanted to do on September 10.

I am trying very hard not to let it get me down, but I'm not doing too well. I will be back someday. But I will never forget today.

Delta had my heart. They'll never get it back.

I know that there are 1000's of guys who feel the same way I do.

Sorry for whining. I'm usually a pretty positive guy. Today sucks. Tomorrow will be better.

FDJ,

Just to let you know again I'm sorry that you're furloughed and hope that you will be recalled at the earliest possible time.

As you may guess, I think the arbitrator's decision was correct but I need for you to know that has NOTHING to do with wanting you to be furloughed or being happy about it.

This grievance resulted from the fact that your contract contains a FM clause. The arbitrator did NOT rule that the Company can do whatever it wants. He ruled that the Company's interpretation of the contract is correct in this instance. He also ruled that it will be reviewed as conditions change.

I know that doesn't help how you feel and I do sympathize with your feelings. I really want to see all of you recalled tomorrow if possible. 9/11 has changed ALL of our lives, even though we are pretending that it didn't. The truth is it has cost every American grave damage.

Don't give up please and don't be bitter. We will all recover from this, some sooner than others for some have lost far more than their jobs. There is life tomorrow and we will come back stronger than before.

You will fly again at Delta. Keep your chin up. You and I have many differences on this forum it is true, but there is one difference that we DO NOT have. WE ARE BOTH PROFESSIONAL AVIATORS.

No real aviator ever wants to see his brother without work! It doesn't matter what we disagree about.

Best wishes for a speedy recall.

 

[FlyingSig]

For those that are interested, here's what the whole arguement was over:

From the DAL Contract:

1.J. General Furlough Protection

1.J.1.
No pilot on the seniority list as of July 1, 2001 will be placed on furlough.

1.J.2.
The Company will be excused from compliance with the provisions of Section 1 J. 1. in the event a circumstance over which the Company does not have control is the cause of such noncompliance.


The circumstance is defined as:

1.B.2. Circumstance over which the Company does not have control,
for the purposes of Section 1, means a circumstance that includes, but is not limited to, a natural disaster; labor dispute; grounding of a substantial number of the Company’s aircraft by a government agency; reduction in flying operations because of a decrease in available fuel supply or other critical materials due to either governmental action or commercial suppliers being unable to provide sufficient fuel or other critical materials for the Company’s operations; revocation of the Company’s operating certificate(s); war emergency; owner’s delay in delivery of aircraft scheduled for delivery; manufacturer’s delay in delivery of new aircraft scheduled for delivery. The term “circumstance over which the Company does not have control” will not include the price of fuel or other supplies, the price of aircraft, the state of the economy, the financial state of the Company, or the relative profitability or unprofitability of the Company’s then-current operations.


The part I highlighted in bold & italics is the part that the arbitrator apparently didn't read, or doesn't understand, IMHO.

I don't buy the war emergency part. We have not declared war on anyone. Bush declared war on terrorism. We've had wars on drugs and wars on education, but those never caused contracts to be violated before. Bush has not needed to use any Delta airplanes in this war. The war has not forced Delta to stop flying any routes (they stopped some on their own, not because they had to)

On Sept. 11, our fleet was grounded. Yup, that was FM. But the FM went away when the goverment reimbursed Delta for the losses incurred. Delta was grounded for 3 days. They got $600 million in free money. At the time, they were burning $10million/day. So let's see...grounded for 3 days, get 60 days worth of cash......

I'm just pissed off and share FDJ's sentiments exactly... well, almost, today wasn't any better then yesterday.

 

[Delta3]

As a former DL student employee I feel bad for you guys. I enjoyed a lot of long lunches at the OCC and the traning building cafeteria talking to you guys.

I too believe that DL is giving you the short end of the stick. One one hand you read reprts of air travel back to, or close to to pre-9/11 numbers, but then you read about more furloughs, makes you wonder...

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ and other DL pilots:

I've said before - I am not glad you are on furlough, and hope you will be recalled as soon as possible. But I too believe the arbitrator made the right decision. I suppose his decision also doesn't bode well for your scope grievance, either. However, on the bright side (from your perspective anyway), it could end up harming the RJDC suit, as it will be very tough for the RJDC to prove damages created by your scope clause, since there won't have been any.

I sincerely hope you are recalled soon. The conditions which resulted in your furlough are not permanent. You will be back.

Best of luck,

RJFlyer

 

[publisher]

2 points

Two points.

First, eight months later or 1 year later, is there anyone who thinks that this was not the direct result of the terrorist acts.

2nd, the airlines lost a combined $3.0+m in this quarter.

Should they be doing things that are totally uneconomical. The cure for our ills are passengers, not forcing airlines to fly people and equipment that it does not need.

 

[ATRCA]

My question for the publisher,

When does mgt. pay for thier inability to properly manage these companies. Many of them were suffering prior to Sept. 11th. Now all of a sudden they have a pass. They have collected millions from the government while they continue to lay off thier unionized work forces.

The CEO of my company recently recieved a quarterly bonus that exceeded $900,000, while he continutes to cry poverty for the company. This would be easier to swallow if mgt. suffered as well but they don't however they just pass the buck to their employees. I will never ever again go out of my way to do anything I'm not paid for or that doesnt directly benefit ME. I could really care less about the company, its profitabiliy, growth or the personal lives of the people at the top. I didnt always feel this way. When I came to this company I thought it was a good place to be and the people who ran the company were deserving of my best effort. No longer. Point A to B and thats it, on time or late, doesnt matter.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surprised at the response this ruling is getting. It the big scheme, it is not that significant.

ALPA has a terrible history of losing these political grievances and court cases. Truth is that ALPA can obtain much more for mainline pilots through predatory negotiations than they can through legitimate legal processes. Did anyone expect ALPA to win this grievance? I sure didn't.

However, ALPA probably will win "win" the scope re-set negotiations. After all, the ALPA members who would argue for the interests of the small jet operators will be excluded from the bargaining process.

By setting block hour scope limits on the Connection carriers, ALPA turned this into a zero sum game. By ALPA's standards it was my job, or their job. Candidly, I'm glad that I get to keep my job earning a profit that sustains the business. FDJ would not shed a tear if ALPA's grievance resulted int he furlough of 800 Connection pilots. Is anyone shedding tears for the US Air Express pilots who will loose their jobs as the Potomac Air jets replace their Dash 8's?

ALPA's war on small jet pilots is not over by a long shot. The scope re-set negotiations will seek to achieve what legitimate legal process could not. Buergey will be out to repair his "effective scope." If any RJ pilots are celebrating they are fools. It is too early to count wins and losses...

Truly, we will all be better off when our union brings us together - when it is no longer us v/s them. As long as ALPA fails to unite us there will remain winners and losers.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[publisher]

Answer

ATRCA

Your question deserves a reply.

First, the millions that the airlines were given in the government deal were not for just a few days of shut down, but, for anticipated effect downstream as well.

In light of the recently posted results, it is not a drop in the bucket as to what the impact has been on our economy and airlines in particular. Far greater than what would have been anticipated had we just had the slowdown we were in prior to September 11.

Secondly, the blunt truth is that companies do not exist to employ. You state that you will not care for the people at the top, and you did before???? Should you care about growth and profits, absolutely, for that is the only reason anyone invested in the company in the first place. Without them, no company and no jobs at all.

The government stepped in to keep the entitiy going so that some jobs and service provided would continue to a reasonable extent. Frankly, the layoff of any "unionized labor" had nothing to do with it at all.

If we are going to pay a guy to fly an aircraft $345,000 at the top end of the labor contract, is it any wonder that the Chairman and CEO are going to be paid out of whack with the world as well. I would not try to defend either.

A good many discussions on these boards center on management being out to get pilots. I have been involved with a bunch of business decisions regarding airlines for the last 30 years including some other businesses and I can not remember any decisions that was a factor.

I can remember two instances, not in the airlines however, where labor contracts priced the service out of business.

 

[TurboS7]

Hang in there, cherish the memories and work for today. Thanks for all your comments on this board, they were a reality check for me. We had to layoff 50% of our pilots today, they were really great FO's, virtually our complete 737 FO list is gone. I hung on by senority being 15 on the master list, I guess my job will be to turn out the lights. Good luck and hopefully this will all rebound and you and others will be recalled soon.

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

Delta may have won the grievance, but in reality they lost. The bad blood from this will remain until the furloughed pilots retire.

The airlines were loosing their asses all year long. September 11th allowed a lot of companies to execute unpopular decisions in the name of forced majeure. Whether DAL needs or can afford the pilots they are trying to sh&t can is irrelevant. These pilots are protected by a collective bargaining agreement that had a "no furlough" stipulation. I'll guarantee, as with most negotiations,that DALPA gave up a lot to get that in their contract. So DAL gets the bennefits of what DALPA gave up to get that stipulation for the duration of the CBA, and DALPA gets the rug yanked out from under their feet.

Now the furloughed guys get to sit at home and watch as ASA/Comair grow. I'm sure their love for the "Delta Family" rivals that of Baretta's love for his wife. Maybe the pilots, due to their incredible sadness (which the cause was beyond their control) can declare force majeure and not show up for work. Maybe this force majeure will prevent them from flying faster than .70. After all they would like to go fast but it's out of their control due to the depression they feel from September 11th they can't process the info faster than .70 mach. Sounds feasible.

Rule #1 of the airline industry......don't piss off the guys who hold the throttles.

 

[rjcap]

~~~^~~~

However, ALPA probably will win "win" the scope re-set negotiations. After all, the ALPA members who would argue for the interests of the small jet operators will be excluded from the bargaining process.

I will disagree with you on that one. The contract triggers a renegotiation of scope after the 2nd quarterly loss. That renegotiation can go on for quite a long time while mainline continues to furlough pilots and DCI carriers continue to expand their flying.

The company desires to continue to expand DCI flying. At this point in time what leverage does DALPA have to force advantageous scope language ?

Just my nickels worth.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJCap,

You are correct. Our weak contract and the lack of foresight of those who voted "yes" on it have accomplished what the rjdc could only dream of. The rjdc lawsuit is pretty moot now, because our "harmful" scope clause is dead.

 

[Ty Webb]

Turbo-

Very sorry to hear about it. I thought Miami Air was doing OK. Did you guys lose a contract? I know the extra lift you guys have been giving AirTran was supposed to wrap up at some point, hope that hasn't changed your business that much.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Nowwhatdowedo?

Just wondering if there is any plans in action to fix this mess. I am not talking about more restrictive RJ barganing by DALPA, but an economical and viable way to get those Delta guys back in the seat. I really don't believe that there is anyone that really wants to see someone furloughed for their own advancement. I sure don't and know of no one that does. So why cant the DALPA MEC and ComAsa MEC's get to gether, throw out the "you guys havent paid your dues", "you are trying to backdoor the system", "go interview like all of us did" etc, and try to negotiate something that Delta management will agree to as well as the pilot groups.
Something as simple as comming up with a merged DOH seniority list for ComAsa and stapling it to the bottom of the Delta list. Keep everyone in their current company so management can still whipsaw (it will make them happy), and ensure that all future RJ deliveries will go to ComAsa (so that the Delta guys stay in Delta). As the RJ's are delivered, the furloughed Delta guys will take those positions at their current year of employment at ComAsa pay. This will ensure that no ComAsa guys get furloughed while bringing back the mainline guys. As Delta starts to recall, everyone moves up in order. The only real change for Delta management is where it gets it's new hires, which is probably more of a sticking point with the DALPA guys as they want to let their mil buddies get in with out going to the regionals. Well I am one of those mil guys and didn't mind working for the regionals at all. The downside to ComAsa is that it will temporrarily slow down upgrades untill the furloughess are recalled, but I think that it will be worth it to get the Delta guys back off the street.
I know that this idea is probably greatly flawed, but us ATR guys arent that smart and I thought we needed to start somewhere. Lets bypass ALPA's status quo concept a get this ball rolling for the good of everyone.
What do you think???? You can also flame away, but this post was not ment to upset anyone.

 

[rjcap]

Tim,

Sounds like pretty rational proposals but unfortunately they won't happen. I don't think anything substantial, besides more furloughs and greater DCI market penetration, will happen until there is a philosophical change in ALPA leadership. This would also include changes in the MEC leadership at Delta.

What is interesting now is the movement at AA/AE for merging of lists. I am quite aware that this is a very biased movement towards mainline but nevertheless a year ago nobody in their right mind would have ever believed in the nature of current events.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Nowwhatdowedo?

So why cant the DALPA MEC and ComAsa MEC's get to gether, throw out the "you guys havent paid your dues", "you are trying to backdoor the system", "go interview like all of us did" etc, and try to negotiate something that Delta management will agree to as well as the pilot groups.

At the end of another thread in which we had debated pro and con for a long time, I made a similar proposal to the mainline pilots (without any of the pre-conditions you list). It did not receive a single reply. The thread just died.

..... ensure that all future RJ deliveries will go to ComAsa (so that the Delta guys stay in Delta). As the RJ's are delivered, the furloughed Delta guys will take those positions at their current year of employment at ComAsa pay.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean exactly by "the furloughed Delta guys will take those positions at their current year of employment" . Would you mind explaining exactly what that means? What seniority (at Comair/ASA) would this entail?

The downside to ComAsa is that it will temporrarily slow down upgrades untill the furloughess are recalled, but I think that it will be worth it to get the Delta guys back off the street.

Again, I'm not sure I understand. Why would it "slow down upgrades"? Please be direct and say what you mean.

Are you suggesting the same idea that the USAir MEC negotiated?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I can't form an opinion of your proposal unless I really understand it.

Lets bypass ALPA's status quo concept a get this ball rolling for the good of everyone.

Once more, I am not sure I know what you mean by "ALPA's status quo concept". Please elaborate?

Any problem can be solved it both sides of an issue want to solve it. However, we must have a clear understanding of what is meant by the details. Otherwise, we can't get off the ground.

Thank you.

 

[surplus1]

What is interesting now is the movement at AA/AE for merging of lists. I am quite aware that this is a very biased movement towards mainline but nevertheless a year ago nobody in their right mind would have ever believed in the nature of current events.

RJcap,

I think you and a lot of other people are misinterpreting the AA proposal.

The APA did NOT propose a merger of their list with AE. What they proposed was the transfer of ALL Eagle jets to American to be flown by AA pilots.

Eventually, and no one knows when "eventually" might be, it the turbo props are transfered to AA, the Eagle pilots left, would go to AA with them.

That is not a proposed MERGER of anything. It IS the proposed THEFT of Eagle's equipment.

If somebody is dumb enough to want to agree to that it's fine with me, but PLEASE stop letting these guys fool you with smoke and mirrors .... for your own sake!