Grievance ruling

[publisher]

Answer

ATRCA

Your question deserves a reply.

First, the millions that the airlines were given in the government deal were not for just a few days of shut down, but, for anticipated effect downstream as well.

In light of the recently posted results, it is not a drop in the bucket as to what the impact has been on our economy and airlines in particular. Far greater than what would have been anticipated had we just had the slowdown we were in prior to September 11.

Secondly, the blunt truth is that companies do not exist to employ. You state that you will not care for the people at the top, and you did before???? Should you care about growth and profits, absolutely, for that is the only reason anyone invested in the company in the first place. Without them, no company and no jobs at all.

The government stepped in to keep the entitiy going so that some jobs and service provided would continue to a reasonable extent. Frankly, the layoff of any "unionized labor" had nothing to do with it at all.

If we are going to pay a guy to fly an aircraft $345,000 at the top end of the labor contract, is it any wonder that the Chairman and CEO are going to be paid out of whack with the world as well. I would not try to defend either.

A good many discussions on these boards center on management being out to get pilots. I have been involved with a bunch of business decisions regarding airlines for the last 30 years including some other businesses and I can not remember any decisions that was a factor.

I can remember two instances, not in the airlines however, where labor contracts priced the service out of business.

 

[TurboS7]

Hang in there, cherish the memories and work for today. Thanks for all your comments on this board, they were a reality check for me. We had to layoff 50% of our pilots today, they were really great FO's, virtually our complete 737 FO list is gone. I hung on by senority being 15 on the master list, I guess my job will be to turn out the lights. Good luck and hopefully this will all rebound and you and others will be recalled soon.

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

Delta may have won the grievance, but in reality they lost. The bad blood from this will remain until the furloughed pilots retire.

The airlines were loosing their asses all year long. September 11th allowed a lot of companies to execute unpopular decisions in the name of forced majeure. Whether DAL needs or can afford the pilots they are trying to sh&t can is irrelevant. These pilots are protected by a collective bargaining agreement that had a "no furlough" stipulation. I'll guarantee, as with most negotiations,that DALPA gave up a lot to get that in their contract. So DAL gets the bennefits of what DALPA gave up to get that stipulation for the duration of the CBA, and DALPA gets the rug yanked out from under their feet.

Now the furloughed guys get to sit at home and watch as ASA/Comair grow. I'm sure their love for the "Delta Family" rivals that of Baretta's love for his wife. Maybe the pilots, due to their incredible sadness (which the cause was beyond their control) can declare force majeure and not show up for work. Maybe this force majeure will prevent them from flying faster than .70. After all they would like to go fast but it's out of their control due to the depression they feel from September 11th they can't process the info faster than .70 mach. Sounds feasible.

Rule #1 of the airline industry......don't piss off the guys who hold the throttles.

 

[rjcap]

~~~^~~~

However, ALPA probably will win "win" the scope re-set negotiations. After all, the ALPA members who would argue for the interests of the small jet operators will be excluded from the bargaining process.

I will disagree with you on that one. The contract triggers a renegotiation of scope after the 2nd quarterly loss. That renegotiation can go on for quite a long time while mainline continues to furlough pilots and DCI carriers continue to expand their flying.

The company desires to continue to expand DCI flying. At this point in time what leverage does DALPA have to force advantageous scope language ?

Just my nickels worth.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJCap,

You are correct. Our weak contract and the lack of foresight of those who voted "yes" on it have accomplished what the rjdc could only dream of. The rjdc lawsuit is pretty moot now, because our "harmful" scope clause is dead.

 

[Ty Webb]

Turbo-

Very sorry to hear about it. I thought Miami Air was doing OK. Did you guys lose a contract? I know the extra lift you guys have been giving AirTran was supposed to wrap up at some point, hope that hasn't changed your business that much.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Nowwhatdowedo?

Just wondering if there is any plans in action to fix this mess. I am not talking about more restrictive RJ barganing by DALPA, but an economical and viable way to get those Delta guys back in the seat. I really don't believe that there is anyone that really wants to see someone furloughed for their own advancement. I sure don't and know of no one that does. So why cant the DALPA MEC and ComAsa MEC's get to gether, throw out the "you guys havent paid your dues", "you are trying to backdoor the system", "go interview like all of us did" etc, and try to negotiate something that Delta management will agree to as well as the pilot groups.
Something as simple as comming up with a merged DOH seniority list for ComAsa and stapling it to the bottom of the Delta list. Keep everyone in their current company so management can still whipsaw (it will make them happy), and ensure that all future RJ deliveries will go to ComAsa (so that the Delta guys stay in Delta). As the RJ's are delivered, the furloughed Delta guys will take those positions at their current year of employment at ComAsa pay. This will ensure that no ComAsa guys get furloughed while bringing back the mainline guys. As Delta starts to recall, everyone moves up in order. The only real change for Delta management is where it gets it's new hires, which is probably more of a sticking point with the DALPA guys as they want to let their mil buddies get in with out going to the regionals. Well I am one of those mil guys and didn't mind working for the regionals at all. The downside to ComAsa is that it will temporrarily slow down upgrades untill the furloughess are recalled, but I think that it will be worth it to get the Delta guys back off the street.
I know that this idea is probably greatly flawed, but us ATR guys arent that smart and I thought we needed to start somewhere. Lets bypass ALPA's status quo concept a get this ball rolling for the good of everyone.
What do you think???? You can also flame away, but this post was not ment to upset anyone.

 

[rjcap]

Tim,

Sounds like pretty rational proposals but unfortunately they won't happen. I don't think anything substantial, besides more furloughs and greater DCI market penetration, will happen until there is a philosophical change in ALPA leadership. This would also include changes in the MEC leadership at Delta.

What is interesting now is the movement at AA/AE for merging of lists. I am quite aware that this is a very biased movement towards mainline but nevertheless a year ago nobody in their right mind would have ever believed in the nature of current events.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Nowwhatdowedo?

So why cant the DALPA MEC and ComAsa MEC's get to gether, throw out the "you guys havent paid your dues", "you are trying to backdoor the system", "go interview like all of us did" etc, and try to negotiate something that Delta management will agree to as well as the pilot groups.

At the end of another thread in which we had debated pro and con for a long time, I made a similar proposal to the mainline pilots (without any of the pre-conditions you list). It did not receive a single reply. The thread just died.

..... ensure that all future RJ deliveries will go to ComAsa (so that the Delta guys stay in Delta). As the RJ's are delivered, the furloughed Delta guys will take those positions at their current year of employment at ComAsa pay.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean exactly by "the furloughed Delta guys will take those positions at their current year of employment" . Would you mind explaining exactly what that means? What seniority (at Comair/ASA) would this entail?

The downside to ComAsa is that it will temporrarily slow down upgrades untill the furloughess are recalled, but I think that it will be worth it to get the Delta guys back off the street.

Again, I'm not sure I understand. Why would it "slow down upgrades"? Please be direct and say what you mean.

Are you suggesting the same idea that the USAir MEC negotiated?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I can't form an opinion of your proposal unless I really understand it.

Lets bypass ALPA's status quo concept a get this ball rolling for the good of everyone.

Once more, I am not sure I know what you mean by "ALPA's status quo concept". Please elaborate?

Any problem can be solved it both sides of an issue want to solve it. However, we must have a clear understanding of what is meant by the details. Otherwise, we can't get off the ground.

Thank you.

 

[surplus1]

What is interesting now is the movement at AA/AE for merging of lists. I am quite aware that this is a very biased movement towards mainline but nevertheless a year ago nobody in their right mind would have ever believed in the nature of current events.

RJcap,

I think you and a lot of other people are misinterpreting the AA proposal.

The APA did NOT propose a merger of their list with AE. What they proposed was the transfer of ALL Eagle jets to American to be flown by AA pilots.

Eventually, and no one knows when "eventually" might be, it the turbo props are transfered to AA, the Eagle pilots left, would go to AA with them.

That is not a proposed MERGER of anything. It IS the proposed THEFT of Eagle's equipment.

If somebody is dumb enough to want to agree to that it's fine with me, but PLEASE stop letting these guys fool you with smoke and mirrors .... for your own sake!

 

[rjcap]

Surplus,

Thanks for the clarification !!

 

[EagleRJ]

Surplus1,

Granted, it IS a three-step proposal, but the end result is a merger of the seniority lists. The catch is (should this proposal make it to the negotiating table) to ensure that the implementation of each step is carried out sequentially, and that the language in the agreement is ironclad.
There is the unlikely possibility that the agreement would be postponed indefinitely after the first step (transferring on-property RJs to AA). That is one of the primary reservations the Eagle pilots have about this proposal (The other being language ensuring that we don't wind up as a furlough buffer for AA pilots).
The end result of this proposal would be one airline flying every plane from the ERJ-135 up to the B777, staffed by a single pilot group. ALPA and APA are pretty much on the same sheet of music now- the big hurdle now is getting the company to realize what a business advantage this would give them.

 

[publisher]

smoke

There is no, I repeat, no chance of AA and AE becoming one. In fact, more likely they become more separate.

" the real hurdle is getting them to see what a business advantage this would be."

Are you not watching what is going on. There is no advantage, just the opposite. The APA proposal was not only rejected, the actions of AA pretty well said, take this and shove it. We will take every step we can to see that this does not happen.

This could not even be called a negotiation, or a battle, the one side is not even willing to participate.

 

[TurboS7]

Ty-webb,
Things were going very well for us then we got bit.We have to send one of our 737's to Europe for 6 months by contract, they don't want any pilots to go with it, last year they took 12 crews. Then we tried to renegociate one of our new 737's that was suppose to be delivered in May. The individual's involved decided to walk and now they are in a lease 40K per month less than we offered, an ego thing. Then we sold our cargo 727's, that leaves us with 1 737 and 4 727's for the summer. 4 crews per airplane for the 727's and 6 crews for the 737, that leaves only the 50 most senior guys. It is really sad and we are loosing some really great people, some of the best FO's that I have ever flown with. By November 1st we are suppose to be back up to 5 737's and 4 pax 727's, but only time will tell. Hopefully by Christmas we will have everyone who is left recalled and trained. Crazy world we live in as we were hiring just a couple of months ago. At least we have a nice contract to protect everybody, that is the advantage of an in- house union, the verbage is specialized to our operation.But this is a first for Miami Air, historically we have never laid anyone off. Thanks Turbo

 

[EagleRJ]

The APA proposal was not rejected because it was financially unworkable. It was rejected because it was not in step with the master plan of a management that has historically discounted ideas offered by labor. We can only guess what AMRs vision is for the company, but I suspect it's not one the employees would want.