Grievance ruling

[rjcap]

Surplus,

Thanks for the clarification !!

 

[EagleRJ]

Surplus1,

Granted, it IS a three-step proposal, but the end result is a merger of the seniority lists. The catch is (should this proposal make it to the negotiating table) to ensure that the implementation of each step is carried out sequentially, and that the language in the agreement is ironclad.
There is the unlikely possibility that the agreement would be postponed indefinitely after the first step (transferring on-property RJs to AA). That is one of the primary reservations the Eagle pilots have about this proposal (The other being language ensuring that we don't wind up as a furlough buffer for AA pilots).
The end result of this proposal would be one airline flying every plane from the ERJ-135 up to the B777, staffed by a single pilot group. ALPA and APA are pretty much on the same sheet of music now- the big hurdle now is getting the company to realize what a business advantage this would give them.

 

[publisher]

smoke

There is no, I repeat, no chance of AA and AE becoming one. In fact, more likely they become more separate.

" the real hurdle is getting them to see what a business advantage this would be."

Are you not watching what is going on. There is no advantage, just the opposite. The APA proposal was not only rejected, the actions of AA pretty well said, take this and shove it. We will take every step we can to see that this does not happen.

This could not even be called a negotiation, or a battle, the one side is not even willing to participate.

 

[TurboS7]

Ty-webb,
Things were going very well for us then we got bit.We have to send one of our 737's to Europe for 6 months by contract, they don't want any pilots to go with it, last year they took 12 crews. Then we tried to renegociate one of our new 737's that was suppose to be delivered in May. The individual's involved decided to walk and now they are in a lease 40K per month less than we offered, an ego thing. Then we sold our cargo 727's, that leaves us with 1 737 and 4 727's for the summer. 4 crews per airplane for the 727's and 6 crews for the 737, that leaves only the 50 most senior guys. It is really sad and we are loosing some really great people, some of the best FO's that I have ever flown with. By November 1st we are suppose to be back up to 5 737's and 4 pax 727's, but only time will tell. Hopefully by Christmas we will have everyone who is left recalled and trained. Crazy world we live in as we were hiring just a couple of months ago. At least we have a nice contract to protect everybody, that is the advantage of an in- house union, the verbage is specialized to our operation.But this is a first for Miami Air, historically we have never laid anyone off. Thanks Turbo

 

[EagleRJ]

The APA proposal was not rejected because it was financially unworkable. It was rejected because it was not in step with the master plan of a management that has historically discounted ideas offered by labor. We can only guess what AMRs vision is for the company, but I suspect it's not one the employees would want.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Surplus1

I am suggesting exactly what I said. I beleive I remember your proposal you mentioned and it is probably very close. What I mean about the Delta furloughed guys is that they will take all remaining positions for the RJ deliveries. For them to stay within Delta and protect our interests at ComAsa, there should be a provision to keep the aircraft deliveries to ComAsa only and not other contract carriers. These furloughed pilots will retain their seniority number and thus be senior to all of the ComAsa pilots.
These furloughed pilots will be paid by their DOH at ComAsa rates (i.e. a two year Delta guy will be paid at the 2 year ComAsa rates). I would guess that this plan would slow down upgrades because the expansion would be from all senior guys, thus no movement at the bottom. This is in no way even close to what the US plan is as that is why all remaining RJ deliveries would go to ComAsa. I wouldnt endorse that US deal for anything. This is very simillar to a 100% flow through with the exception of how the furloughed pilots would be brought back which would ensure that no ComAsa pilot would be furloughed.
By "ALPA status quo" I mean continuing with the Ostrich head in the sand routine. Instead of waiting for ALPA to come to their senses and fix the industry (they wont while the big 5 continue to try and manipulate the industry), we should fix our part of it now. I didn't mead to be vague, but remember, this is only some idiots idea and I am sure there are many more great ideas. I just though it was time to start doing something.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Surplus1

Tim,

I'm not against you. The devil is always in the details and I just wanted to be sure of what you meant by what you said.

I am suggesting exactly what I said. I beleive I remember your proposal you mentioned and it is probably very close.

Not the same but that doesn't matter. I'm not the expert, I just want a workable plan. One that stops the fighting without shafting anyone. I don't care whose idea it is or where it came from. If we can do something to help the furloughed Delta pilots, without hurting our own pilots, I'm all for it.

What I mean about the Delta furloughed guys is that they will take all remaining positions for the RJ deliveries.

Understand all FO vacancies in all new deliveries, from date of agreement, go to furloughed Delta pilots. ComAsa stops hiring off the street. Is that what you mean?

For them to stay within Delta and protect our interests at ComAsa, there should be a provision to keep the aircraft deliveries to ComAsa only and not other contract carriers.

Understand (I think). Doesn't seem hard since as far as I know, Delta doesn't buy airplanes for the contract carriers anyway. I would prefer to see all new deliveries and all new route segments in that I think the flying is more important than the equipment. In other words the subcontracting stops and all flying is done by DAL and its subsidiaries. Is that what you mean? That won't be an easy sell to the Company.

These furloughed pilots will retain their seniority number and thus be senior to all of the ComAsa pilots.

Confused. I have no problem with them retaining their Delta number. I don't understand how they will be senior to all ComAsa pilots, if they are flying for ComAsa. If you mean senior at DAL, I have no problem with that. If you mean senior at ComAsa, I could have a big problem with that. Are you talking about "super seniority" for the DAL pilots? Are you talking about their DAL DOH for seniority at ComAsa? (Those two things are different). Please clarify.

These furloughed pilots will be paid by their DOH at ComAsa rates (i.e. a two year Delta guy will be paid at the 2 year ComAsa rates).

No problem with full longevity credit for pay purposes, but no Captain pay rates for pilots flying as first officers. Question? Do you think DAL pilots would go for that (I don't really know how much longevity the furloughed DAL pilots have)?

I would guess that this plan would slow down upgrades because the expansion would be from all senior guys, thus no movement at the bottom.

Confused. The only way I could see it affecting upgrades would be if you are giving the DAL pilot super seniority at ComAsa. Perhaps I am missing something. Please clarify.

This is in no way even close to what the US plan is as that is why all remaining RJ deliveries would go to ComAsa. I wouldnt endorse that US deal for anything.

Glad to hear that. I would not consider that plan either. It's dead in the water at my airline.

This is very simillar to a 100% flow through with the exception of how the furloughed pilots would be brought back which would ensure that no ComAsa pilot would be furloughed.

Confused again. I don't understand the similarity to a flow-through. I hope you're not suggesting that the DAL pilots would come to ComAsa as Captains. If that is your plan it's DOA at CMR. We are not going to put the pilots of another airline on our list as Captains ahead of our own pilots. Never happen, so I hope that is not what you mean. Please clarify.

I also don't see any way for ComAsa pilots to move to DAL in your plan. That is why the similarity to a flow-through escapes me.

By "ALPA status quo" I mean continuing with the Ostrich head in the sand routine. Instead of waiting for ALPA to come to their senses and fix the industry (they wont while the big 5 continue to try and manipulate the industry), we should fix our part of it now. I didn't mead to be vague, but remember, this is only some idiots idea and I am sure there are many more great ideas. I just though it was time to start doing something.

OK, I understand. I agree that it is time to do something. I also have the opinion that national ALPA is not a player in what we do unless they make major changes in their policy which I don't see them doing. Bring them into the picture (as is) and it will kill the deal.

If the Delta pilots have a desire to work directly and exclusively with the CMR/ASA pilots to resolve our differences, I'm all for it. From my perspective, we meet privately, we agree privately and we inform the ALPA of what we have agreed to do, after it is a done deal. Otherwise, it will never come together. There are just too many players in that stew and too many interests that are too divergent from ours. That's just my opinion.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

Granted, it IS a three-step proposal, but the end result is a merger of the seniority lists. The catch is (should this proposal make it to the negotiating table) to ensure that the implementation of each step is carried out sequentially, and that the language in the agreement is ironclad.

The "plan" already is a sequential plan. It sequentially transfers all AE jets to AA, without the pilots. Since there are proposed pay rates for your equipment types in the APA's Section 6 opener, I'd say it has already made it to the "table".

In Phase I - all of the CL-700 aircraft go to American, to be flown by AA pilots. That will displace the Eagle pilots currently flying those aircraft, who will in turn displace other Eagle pilots junior to them. At the end of that phase, a # of Eagle pilots equal to the number flying the 70-seater, will be furloughed off the bottom.

In Phase II - The rest of Eagles jets go to American, once more to be flown by AA furloughed pilots. Not a single AE pilot goes with them unless AA runs out of pilots to fly them. (Then, I suppose, they'll hire more off the street). When they run out of AA pilots, then and only then do any Eagle pilots go. I think they called you the "remainder" in the proposal, isn't that right?

That will displace Eagle pilots, who will displace their juniors, who will downgrade and displace FO's who will then be furloughed. An almost complete flush of Eagle so that they can get your jets. BRAVO!

In Phase III - What ever is left of Eagle (if anything) goes to AA with the pilots. The term used in the APA proposal is that phase III happens eventually (you can translate that to never).

I'm sorry but this is NOT a plan to "merge" your lists. It is a plan to transfer your aircraft to American. They already have a list and of course, all of their pilots are on it, therefore they will have "one list". You just wont be on that list.

There is the unlikely possibility that the agreement would be postponed indefinitely after the first step (transferring on-property RJs to AA). That is one of the primary reservations the Eagle pilots have about this proposal

Unlikely you say. I'd be willing to bet whatever that the instant your last jet has gone to AA (without you) the whole thing will come to a screeching halt and you'll be up the creek without the old familiar paddle.

Just where do you think you'll fit in if in the middle of Phase II AA buys another carrier (like say Alaska) and merges with it? Not to worry, they wont do that.

If you really think the APA has "seen the light" and is doing this because they want unity between you and they welcome you to their list, then I have Ocean-front property in Arizona that I'll sell you real cheap.

Listen friend, if you want to be an AA pilot I have NO problem whatever with that. If you think this "plan" is going to make that happen well, I wont even say it.

(The other being language ensuring that we don't wind up as a furlough buffer for AA pilots).

Why are you worrying about becoming furlough fodder? You've already signed a flow-through agreement that makes you just that. Only reason it hasn't happened is because you never "flowed" anywhere. If you had, you'd be another CALEX.

On second thought I will say it. If this is the kind of stuff you all will buy, then I no longer have any doubts as to why you have a 16-year contract and a flow-through that was never worth the paper it's written on.

The end result of this proposal would be one airline flying every plane from the ERJ-135 up to the B777, staffed by a single pilot group.

Sounds cool and you're right. The only problem is there won't be any Eagle pilots in the "single pilot group" staffing those airplanes. Neet trick. If I were an AA pilot I think that was a great deal too. Sometimes as they say, you should be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

I noticed you didn't mention the turboprops. So what happened to Phase III? And where are all those turboprop pilots (your former jet pilots) going to work? Oh, at Eagle. Such a deal.

ALPA and APA are pretty much on the same sheet of music now- the big hurdle now is getting the company to realize what a business advantage this would give them.

I'll bet they are on the same sheet of music. ALPA wants to merge with the APA so bad they'll sell you down the river in a heartbeat. If you haven't figured out how much ALPA cares about you with the contract you have today (the last "good deal" they helped you get), there is no hope for you.

Looks like your only blessing in disguise is the fact that AMR wont agree to this anyway. Unless you want to be in the bread line, you'd better pray they don't agree.

Nothing personal buddy. just my ramblings. I know you have to make your own decisions and it's none of my business. Best wishes.

 

[publisher]

EagleRJ

EagleRJ

You need to understand the relationship of things.

Employees are their to execute a business plan, not to make it.

That is not a comment on their value or worth. It is basic business 101. If there is an obligation, it is to the shareholders to provide a return on their investment.

This issue we are discussing cannot be conducted in the vacumn of a pilot issue only. Surplus 1 puts forth articulate and intelligent arguments, point by point. Mine is simpler. If you understand the basic tenent's of the regional business, you will know that there are reasons that the majors will not buy off on putting these together. As I said earlier somewhere else, the fact that AA would give up city pairs and take seats out, should have been an indication that this was not even discussable.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Surplus,
Hey, look on the bright side. If the Eagle/APA plan goes through, I'm sure we'll have a big crop of new rjdc supporters. Of course, they will need to find a new job first...

To publisher,
I appreciate you keeping us grounded in the management side of the story. However, as you keep telling us, we are not management. So, you keep accusing us of only seeing the pilot's side of the story, and you are correct. We do know that management has worries and problems, and we have our own. Sometimes they are compatable, sometimes not. But, even if something we ask for doesn't make them more profitable, well, we will still ask. All of our contracts make them less profitable, but if they treated us better from the start, we wouldn't have joined a union in the first place.

So, why do you keep reminding us of the obvious?