Greatest Threat?

[CatYaaak]

Oops

I was so busy before giving irrefutable and ironclad proof that airline pilots are lowering the bar for the rest of us in terms of salary, that I forgot to answer the original question.

The biggest threat to aviation?

A: Accountants

 

[Floyd94]

put Kit Darby and the rest of these "aviation schools" out of business.

I'm dead serious about regulating the number of pilots. Shut down those P.O.S schools, and make your companies make contracts with just a few VERY REPUTABLE aviation schools, raise the standards to get in, make a degree and qualifying test (like the MCAT) a prerequisite. Then all hiring from whatever regionals will come from said schools, you get dudes (both guys and gals) who are motivated, and have worked very hard (not that they haven't now). Now you have just raised the standards for pilots and lowered the demand.

This is an outstanding idea thats probably not possible. As it is now, none of these flight schools have any standards to get in. The only ones that may have any kind of requirements are Purdue, Univ. of ILL., etc. Riddle, and some of these other weekend flight schools only requirements are wether or not you have the $$. With flight schools like that in business there is no way to regulate "who" can go through flight trainning.

 

[wil]

Hey Jstyle13- There is nothing "lowly" about your position as a CFI!!! Standup and be proud! Your probably are at the apex of your stick and rudder skills in a Cessna- enjoy! I got recurrent in a C-152 and it was not pretty, ha,ha!

As for pilot bitching, get used to it! It is part and parcel to the industry. No pilot is ever content, we are always wanting to fly bigger, faster aircraft for more pay- period! It is the people who due not appreciate their current situation that you have to worry about!

Welcome to an elite club of aviators, enjoy your time instructing, be a motivational force to your students and keep looking ahead!!

By the way, our POI in ATL will renew our CFI certs for line Captains because in his words, "if you are not teaching/mentoring your FO for the left seat you are not doing your job!"

Fly safe- Wil

 

[chawbein]

The AMA does it for doctors. Have some pride, you are a unique group of professionals, just as much as a doctor.

Use the bargaining power of your union to create an accreditation for certain schools who meet the standards that you lay out. Use the bargaining power of you union to make sure that your airline only takes pilots from an accredited system (flight school, military). Possibly since you have union shops at your airline, make it a requirement to become a member of ALPA to come from an accredited system.

IT CAN BE DONE, RAISE THE OUTSIDE PERCEPTION OF YOUR GROUP FROM GLORIFIED BUS DRIVER TO CERTIFIED PROFESSIONALS.

 

[CatYaaak]

I'm dead serious about regulating the number of pilots. Shut down those P.O.S schools, and make your companies make contracts with just a few VERY REPUTABLE aviation schools, raise the standards to get in, make a degree and qualifying test (like the MCAT) a prerequisite. Then all hiring from whatever regionals will come from said schools, you get dudes (both guys and gals) who are motivated, and have worked very hard (not that they haven't now). Now you have just raised the standards for pilots and lowered the demand.

I dunno, man. I think Aeroflot had this very same, basic setup.

 

[Floyd94]

Beleive me, I would be the first to vote for this. However, there are too many people, including Union people that have all received their tickets through these "POS flight schools" and would never even consider this as something worth voting on. Unfortunately, very few of us think this way, hell half these guys don't even have undergrad degrees.

 

[Jeff G]

Jeff,

All good points, though I would like to point out that it was not I who ever made the prostitution analogy.

Indeed, you did not. Still, I don't want you to think that LCC pilots are intentionally causing downward pressure, or that there's no awareness that this is taking place. FWIW, as far as upward pressure is concerned, I am quite certain that if and when the economy turns around, a number of pilots at JetBlue and others will desert for Delta, etc. if pay and working conditions are not satisfactory. That is a strong upward force that always exists in a recovery. Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I don't think the race to the bottom is an ever-accelerating slide, just the downstroke of a cycle. Give it time. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Jeff G]

The AMA does it for doctors. Have some pride, you are a unique group of professionals, just as much as a doctor.

Use the bargaining power of your union to create an accreditation for certain schools who meet the standards that you lay out. Use the bargaining power of you union to make sure that your airline only takes pilots from an accredited system (flight school, military). Possibly since you have union shops at your airline, make it a requirement to become a member of ALPA to come from an accredited system.

IT CAN BE DONE, RAISE THE OUTSIDE PERCEPTION OF YOUR GROUP FROM GLORIFIED BUS DRIVER TO CERTIFIED PROFESSIONALS.

This is a good idea in theory, but I don't know how to get there from here. Union support alone wouldn't do it. You would have to make it illegal to fly airliners without such board approval just as it's illegal to practice medicine without it. A century ago, doctors were hacks, by and large, but strict board requirements raised standards (and pay) which had enormous impact for the public good. An airline pilot licensing board would be a hard sell precisely because we're already very good at our jobs without it. I'm not sure you want to make the case that we have a lot of hacks flying airliners.

 

[ACWild]

As a company grows, all salaried employees get raises, not just pilots. As costs go up, companies have to find bigger markets to support them. Southwest and many of the regional carriers have stated that their biggest competition is cars. If ticket prices cross a fine line that people are willing to pay, then the company will lose passengers. No passengers = no salary.
Maybe salaries should be tied to the CEOs salary. If the company can afford to give him a 30% raise, then they can afford to give everyone the same percentage.
There are alot of well-paid senior pilots out there who would expect a pay raise at the cost of losing many of the junior pilots during hard times. How is it preserving the profession when their airlines go belly up?
Is a furloughed USAirways pilot going to make more if he flies for JB or if he waits to get a recall? Maybe he should be a martyr and stay unemployed until a high salary airline gives him a call, I'm sure his family will understand. God forbid if someone will take a job with 15 days off a month for less than 150k. (I'm being sarcastic).

 

[chawbein]

What percentage of airline pilots are ALPA members?

 

[flywithastick]

You're on the right track. Engineer's (barely) protect themselves with state licensing. Accountants do a little better, etc. ALPA and others interested should lobby the gubment to create a super ATP or just make ATP's harder to get.

Work smart and change from the top.

Here's another take on the salary perception issue. It's healthy for an employee to believe they're worth more than what they're being paid. If you ever think you're making enough, then you're probably getting too much.

Got this speech from one of my first bosses when he handed me my raise for that year. He had an excellent point, but I still thought the raise sucked. All this is of course secondary to market forces.

 

[CatYaaak]

The AMA does it for doctors. Have some pride, you are a unique group of professionals, just as much as a doctor.

Use the bargaining power of your union to create an accreditation for certain schools who meet the standards that you lay out. Use the bargaining power of you union to make sure that your airline only takes pilots from an accredited system (flight school, military). Possibly since you have union shops at your airline, make it a requirement to become a member of ALPA to come from an accredited system.

IT CAN BE DONE, RAISE THE OUTSIDE PERCEPTION OF YOUR GROUP FROM GLORIFIED BUS DRIVER TO CERTIFIED PROFESSIONALS.

Just a couple counterpoints, chabein:

1) Are you aware that approximately 40,000 people UNNECESSARILY die each year die in hospitals (those are those big buildings with doctors)? I don't think pilots want to be that unique as a group, nor would I be proud of it.

2) Instead of using this "accredited system" moniker for your union-approved-and-enforced, utopian pipeline to the airlines you envision, let's just call them what they are; "Re-education camps". Sure, Pol Pot, Mao, and other illustrious standard-bearers of similar socialist brainchilds used this label, but they're dead so they can't sue you.

Of course, to be true to the ideal (and to history), you will have to "purge" those current members of ALPA who came through a pipeline that lacked the filtering system you describe. After all, they are obviously suspect and could well be regarded as contaminants. As the saying goes; "If you mix clean water with dirty water, all you get is more dirty water".

3) This last one is a toughie...."Raise the outside perception of your group..etc..". Unfortunately, outside perceptions are often driven by the actual VERY FEW bad apples that exhibit VERY REAL STUPIDITY. For instance, how many pilots have been caught reporting for work airline-legal-drunk since 9-11? 4 or 5? more? I quit counting, but every incident shows up in the media. Who caught them?...pilots, monitoring their peers in the interests of safety? Nope, the friggin TSA caught them. Government screeners. Digest that for a moment...some pilots have actually succeeded in making government employees look good!

Trust me, even if you had cadres of spit-polished, "best and brightest" ALPA-larva marching in parades down every main street in America, it would do nothing to heal the damage the repeated gut-punches to the imagine these drinking incidents inflicted. Ufair? Possibly. Has ALPA done enough PR to engage this issue to the public's satisfaction..showing that they are maximizing their efforts to solve this internally? Its seems to me that there are more statements issued, more interviews, and more copy given to salaries, cuts, furloughes etc (INSIDER stuff)....than addressing this perception outsiders may have.

Returning to your physician analogy, a lot of outsiders would say in answer to your complaint about image; Dr., Heal theyself.

 

[chawbein]

1. That arguement does not apply.

2. I'm not sure why you have linked the idea with dictators' death camps, but to counter that I'll try to be more clear. If you are going to have schools that take people from zero to hero, they should have some sort of accreditation. When someone goes to a college that is not an accredited institution they've gotten a worthless shingle for alot of money. These "schools" are pumping numerous pilots with minimum qualifications who are willing to do anything to get into a flying job including PAYING FOR THE TIME. This oversupply of pilots brings down the price (compensation). By making the process to get into one of these schools higher, you limit the amount of people who will pass through therefore lowering the supply and raising the price. The whole process I'm talking about is for your "Airline Academies".

Outside of that I suppose you could require an ATP to fly for the airlines, and change the process for getting your ATP to include attending an accredited course. Do you see what I'm getting at?

3. I agree that ALPA has sh!t for P.R., I kind of digressed earlier.

That's about all I can answer for now, I have to get back to work.

 

[metrodriver]

Do pilots have to make $300.000/ year? no. $200.000? no. less than $40.000 no. The high end is way too high, yet there are way too many pilots working for peanuts. There is no reason why an f/o should be paid less than$20.000 a year, or even what first year pay is at most majors. I have some friends working at some high tech companies. They spent the same amount of time in school, are sitting safely behind a desk, and bring home at least $60.000 a year and didn't put themselfs in deep debt for flight training. If I tell them how much I make (about a third of their salary) they shake their head in disbelief. (maybe I should have gone into electronics, but I just like to have an office that moves).
And the problem with aviation now is caused by high salaries. It's caused by the airlines not collectively charging enough for the product they offer. Raise the $200.- ticket price by a hundred dollars and suddenly everybody is out of the red. No reason to see major airline tickets being cheaper than SWA or jet blue

 

[chawbein]

What happens to demand with that $300 dollar ticket? Will the same amount of people fly for a higher price? I dont' know.