Great Lakes

[CX880]

Great Lakes pays more than your current non-flying job? How is that even possible?

Great Lakes:
1st year f/o hourly rate: $16
Monthly guarantee: 75 hours
Monthly pay: $1,200

Minimum wage:
$7.25/hr
160 hours/mo
Monthly pay: $1,160

Now I see, you must be making minimum wage. If that's the case, you're right... You're going to be making $40 more per month as a Great Lakes pilot than a minimum wage worker. Nice.

You're talking about first year, everyone knows it's almost equal to flying for minimum wage, probably below.... The problem is that by second year you should be upgrading and making more than some regional places and by third of fourth year you should be gone. So in the long run, you end up making more money going to GL.

 

[Lynxman]

I'm not exactly sure it will work out upgrading that quickly, but you get the point.

 

[embpic1]

Guys what is the big deal? This is how it has been done for ages. Yes commuter pay sucks big time. It is a stepping stone. For those that start early it is easier because you are not making much money anyway. For those that are older and have careers in other fields it is much harder. I was at Lakes for several years. Yeah the pay sucked but I had a blast and got some great experience. When I started I had a $300 car, recently finished college and had no mortgage or large loans. Starting pay was $10/hour. Things were tight but I got by.

 

[Lynxman]

Exactly although I do have a large loan it's managable provided I'm not a idiot with spending money. My biggest concern with going to Lakes is washing out of training and screwing myself over with that on my record.

 

[embpic1]

Exactly although I do have a large loan it's managable provided I'm not a idiot with spending money. My biggest concern with going to Lakes is washing out of training and screwing myself over with that on my record.

The training at Lakes is tough I will give you that. When I was there all limitations and memory items had to able to be recalled. If you missed a limitation or memory item on an oral you were done. We all studied hard and made the best effort. My very first training flight was in the airplane. No simulators back then. On my first takeoff I was given a V1 cut followed by a single engine ILS to a landing. So on my first flight in the 1900 I only had one engine with the exception of the takeoff run. That was just the way things were done back in the day. Now they have a 1900D sim so things are a little easier. I have a friend that is an instructor at Lakes and he said one of the biggest problems they see is guys that flew glass (Cyrus etc..). They have a heck of a time with situational awareness without the moving map.

 

[Kalifornia]

It's sucks how bad it's gotten, but it's more unbelievable that reality hasn't set in enough to deter enough perspective pilots to shut down the zero to hero training schools in mass quantities including university programs. A $100,000 loan at 5% interest rate spread over 10 years = $1000 a month!? When people are clinging on per diem to live, something is seriously wrong.

 

[Lynxman]

The training at Lakes is tough I will give you that. When I was there all limitations and memory items had to able to be recalled. If you missed a limitation or memory item on an oral you were done. We all studied hard and made the best effort. My very first training flight was in the airplane. No simulators back then. On my first takeoff I was given a V1 cut followed by a single engine ILS to a landing. So on my first flight in the 1900 I only had one engine with the exception of the takeoff run. That was just the way things were done back in the day. Now they have a 1900D sim so things are a little easier. I have a friend that is an instructor at Lakes and he said one of the biggest problems they see is guys that flew glass (Cyrus etc..). They have a heck of a time with situational awareness without the moving map.

No glass here for me. For the time being I'm going to rent a twin an hour or two a month to get back up to snuff on ME work.

 

[Lynxman]

It's sucks how bad it's gotten, but it's more unbelievable that reality hasn't set in enough to deter enough perspective pilots to shut down the zero to hero training schools in mass quantities including university programs. A $100,000 loan at 5% interest rate spread over 10 years = $1000 a month!? When people are clinging on per diem to live, something is seriously wrong.

My loan isn't 100K, rather 63K to be exact that's ratings plus degree. Nobody pays loans back in 10 years unless they can afford to. I'm looking at around $450-550 a month much more reasonable. Obviously as I make more money I'll pay more to get rid of it asap.

 

[wrxpilot]

Guys what is the big deal? This is how it has been done for ages. Yes commuter pay sucks big time. It is a stepping stone. For those that start early it is easier because you are not making much money anyway. For those that are older and have careers in other fields it is much harder. I was at Lakes for several years. Yeah the pay sucked but I had a blast and got some great experience. When I started I had a $300 car, recently finished college and had no mortgage or large loans. Starting pay was $10/hour. Things were tight but I got by.

Here's the thing...

Most of the of majors are going to be hiring for a long time... Delta might, but I've heard that is mostly going to consist of bringing back furloughs. I think anybody thinking about going to a regional today needs to realize they may be stuck there for a VERY long time as an F/O. Maybe they will even need to make a career of their particular regional.

 

[Lynxman]

Here's the thing...

Most of the of majors are going to be hiring for a long time... Delta might, but I've heard that is mostly going to consist of bringing back furloughs. I think anybody thinking about going to a regional today needs to realize they may be stuck there for a VERY long time as an F/O. Maybe they will even need to make a career of their particular regional.

Def a possibility so I ask you this... Would you rather work at a dead end computer job selling avionics day in day out in a somewhat hostile enviroment making between 17K and if your lucky and I mean real lucky 25-30K tops? Or make around the same flying at Lakes and possibly move on to bigger and better things? That's an honest question.

 

[belliott]

No hate at all but this is exactly why you'll never make money.

How do you know how much I make? I have a side business/job that earns more than what I make flying.... and I am doing something to correct the low pay issue.... part of the ALPA movement here for a decent contract.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

How much should an airline that flies 4 people to Riverton, WY pay its labour? This is not continental express that flies a full rj to higher density American cities! It's GLA! Even if they paid double, it would still be less than we are worth.

Emb beat me to it, but as he pointed out this is the way our profession has been done for decades.

 

[Kalifornia]

How much should an airline that flies 4 people to Riverton, WY pay its labour? This is not continental express that flies a full rj to higher density American cities! It's GLA! Even if they paid double, it would still be less than we are worth.

Emb beat me to it, but as he pointed out this is the way our profession has been done for decades.

And for decades, you could actually count on moving up the ladder to make it a quality major carrier within say 10 years. Now you need to maneuver through years of substandard pay while keeping a clean record and then have luck to make it to a carrier that pays 100 grand a year or more with a decent schedule. And then hope you don't get furloughed during your first 10 years on the new glamor job. How much does a corporate pilot make flying 4 people to Riverton, WY?

 

[Salukipilot4590]

How do you know how much I make? I have a side business/job that earns more than what I make flying.... and I am doing something to correct the low pay issue.... part of the ALPA movement here for a decent contract.

You're doing it right then! I owe ya a beer!

Just think though...most people aren't doing what you're doing.

 

[wrxpilot]

Def a possibility so I ask you this... Would you rather work at a dead end computer job selling avionics day in day out in a somewhat hostile enviroment making between 17K and if your lucky and I mean real lucky 25-30K tops? Or make around the same flying at Lakes and possibly move on to bigger and better things? That's an honest question.

I'd do something else, somewhere else if necessary.

I grew up in Colorado, out in Evergreen and Golden. That's some of the most beautiful area in the country, and it was really hard to leave it. But I knew I if I didn't, I'd be facing decisions like "should I go to Great Lakes?". Leaving Colorado was the best thing possible for my aviation career. However... I know some people don't, under any circumstances, want to leave that area. That's understandable, but such inflexibility can come at a heavy price if your timing wasn't right with the aviation market.

If you were willing to move, there's no reason you couldn't do considerably better than topping out at $25-30k. But you're you, and I'm me. I respect your decision, even if I don't understand it.

 

[Lynxman]

If you were willing to move, there's no reason you couldn't do considerably better than topping out at $25-30k. But you're you, and I'm me. I respect your decision, even if I don't understand it.

I packed up and moved from IL to SW FL for what I thought was a good job (boy did that bite me in the a$$), so I would do it again no problem. My issues that face me I'm a low time guy trying to start out in this industry. Not too many options open to me at this point. Thanks for the help though I take it you drive a WRX nice choice.

 

[wrxpilot]

I packed up and moved from IL to SW FL for what I thought was a good job (boy did that bite me in the a$$), so I would do it again no problem. My issues that face me I'm a low time guy trying to start out in this industry. Not too many options open to me at this point. Thanks for the help though I take it you drive a WRX nice choice.

Yeah, I understand. It's pretty rough out there still, and I was very lucky I started out when I did.

I wish I had a WRX. I used to race one on track days with a friend, but those days are long past now. Someday I hope to have one though!

 

[gt1900]

My loan isn't 100K, rather 63K to be exact that's ratings plus degree. Nobody pays loans back in 10 years unless they can afford to. I'm looking at around $450-550 a month much more reasonable. Obviously as I make more money I'll pay more to get rid of it asap.

Just a quick lesson on economics for ya. The interest you pay on those student loans is a tax write-off. Your probably only paying 4 or maybe 5 percent on those loans, after taxes that gets dropped to 2-3%, or less in many cases. You can take the extra money you were going to pay down on those loans and invest in the market. You should have no problem making 5-10% interest in the market right now. In other words, by paying back those student loans early, rather than investing that money in the market, you are loosing money. Take the extra money and invest it, you will be better off in the long run! As you pay off your interest and you start to pay more towards the principle, then pay more money down towards the loans.

 

[Lynxman]

Unless I'm missing something there is no garuntee in the stock market. Are you referring to corporate bonds etc. etc.

 

[Trogdor]

Just an FYI, due to no upgrades for about 9 months, there is a huge back log of FOs waiting to upgrade at Lakes. New-hire pilots should expect to sit in the right seat for at least two years.