Gravediggers?

[cynic]

Because flying is easy. It doesn't take years of study, it takes 60K and a few months at pilots R Us. Its easier than college, hell, its probably easier than high school calculus, and ANY moron with cash can get the certificates.

Thus....
We have RJ pilots that say 'Dude watch this' as they crash
We have Beech 1900 pilots that don't understand VMC or weight and balance
Pilots that show up drunk
You get the idea....

and 99.99999% of the time a chimp will do just fine anyway so thats what we have.

Now flame on, but its just reality. Should we pay more and get better pilots, perhaps some sort of vetting system... thats another debate and not my point.

But as for why wages are low... because airlines are willing to take the folks that work for 20K a year and they know 99.99999% of the time, the moron will do just fine.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

We have Beech 1900 pilots that don't understand VMC or weight and balance.

You really should educate yourself at least a little bit on this crash before you get on a message board and ridicule the dead pilots.

 

[coolyokeluke]

Because flying is easy. It doesn't take years of study, it takes 60K and a few months at pilots R Us. Its easier than college, hell, its probably easier than high school calculus, and ANY moron with cash can get the certificates.

Thus....
We have RJ pilots that say 'Dude watch this' as they crash
We have Beech 1900 pilots that don't understand VMC or weight and balance
Pilots that show up drunk
You get the idea....

and 99.99999% of the time a chimp will do just fine anyway so thats what we have.

Now flame on, but its just reality. Should we pay more and get better pilots, perhaps some sort of vetting system... thats another debate and not my point.

But as for why wages are low... because airlines are willing to take the folks that work for 20K a year and they know 99.99999% of the time, the moron will do just fine.

OK flying isn't brain surgery but it's certainly not THAT easy. Did you ever teach somebody with PHd's or master's degrees in fields like physics and it took a WHOLE lot of time before they "got it"? Why is a Bonanza called a "doctor killer"? And yes, given enough time most people will eventually be able to do it. But will they be able to hack the pace of learning/flying the sim at a 121 ground school? Some can and some can't. There was a large number of applicants compared to folks who got the job where I'm at. True, some "chimps" get in but most have pretty decent credentials. Pilots are driven folks who can withold instant gratification. Thus they compete for $20k a year with the expectation that it will get much better. Yes I agree that's too low, same old problem of supply and demand.
Are there drunk pilots, and rogues, and people who don't have a clue? Sure. But if you look at the overall record the industry does a very good job, and I would argue the safety record wouldn't be what it is if people in this field were as bad as you say.

 

[hindsight2020]

Well Listen, the problem with the "realistic expectation" argument is that the threshold is all over the freggin' place, going from individual to individual. I read some people's take on it and I sit in awe. Nobody considers being able to make 75K and being frugal an unrealistic expectation. The problem in aviation is that the "entry level" period never ends! It is absolutely ridiculous. And those who minimize that REALITY are on the atypical side of the compensation scale.

People aren't bitching because they might not reach the six figure mark, yeah a lot are in that track, but most down in the pits are bitchin' because they're 10 years into the dream and can't top out 30K! And that's ridiculous. Rolling around the hamster wheel looking for a crappy job, but guess what, you can't get that crappy job so instead you gotta get a crappiER job to build experience just for the crappy job, and on and on up the prescribed ladder until people get tired of the bullsh$t. That's the problem, it's not spoiled Capts whinning about the low quality caviar,although they are part of a different problem, it's boatload full of people who can't pay the bills.

Few industries with technical skills (such as we the flying a$$clowns)have entry-level conditions that prescribe a "get out of the business" result to the cost-benefit question FROM THE GET-GO. And don't give me that sh%t about doctors slaving on their residencies, yeah 45K is real rough on a single 27yo. But aviation, nooo , here you get a degree and then a Masters , maybe a Phd while you're at it, since a TAship pays more part-time than what a GOOD salaried full-time CFI job pays (the math on that one still gives me nightmares), and still you're freggin' pulling the slave hours on the second job just to meet a reasonable age-adjusted subsistence index. Simply putting your nose to the grindstone and hoping for the best while you suck dirt for 10 years like a commited little pilot is simply foolish and to suggest that 'attitude' is the key to succcess in this business is naive and ultimately biased by the dynamics of those who judge the condition of any matter based on their particular circumstance, without opening themselves to the possibility that maybe just maybe, those who are born rounding 3rd base and those at the plate with a holed-up wiffle bat don't quite have the same condition, and 'attitude' (read the subjecitve quantification of 'realistic expectations') has sh%t to do with it.

Solution? Break the vice. Knock down the incentive for people to want to be Kobe. This country is addicted to the myth of its own dream, and everybody pledges alliegance to the same feeble dream in hopes of recouping the investment placed in their loyalties (read whoring out for the big time, you know the Eminem rags to riches bull). Break that cycle and perhaps this industry might kick back the usual supply/demand gridlock. Nobody makes 200K anymore, people at the bottom get bracketed up, no expectations of blowing up. Do that, those who wanted the big time are dis-incetivized (sp?) and those who truly value their professional worth are able to EAT and perform a duty with pride. Idealistic, perhaps, but I rather do that than whore out to a stupid high school speech about 'having the right attitude'.... I might be poor (ask the IRS they got tables for it) but at least I'm not a punk.

Wow, I feel better and I don't even want to be an airline pilot

 

[Goose Egg]

The problem in aviation is that the "entry level" period never ends! It is absolutely ridiculous.

No, I completely understand what you are saying here, and I agree with your point. Making $30k after 10 years in is a legitimate concern. I'm not saying that it's a risk I'm unwilling to run, but it if it did happen to me, I'd definitely do something about it--maybe even a career change. Like I said, I like flying, but I like eating too. I'm just remaining (perhaps foolishly) optimistic that it won't be a choice between the two.

Here's a quote from myself from an earlier post...

...but I certainly wouldn't take $20k per year to fly airplanes indefinitely. Are you kidding? My goal was to eat, pay bills, and fly. $20k ain't going to cut it for very long.

Make that $30K as well.

And don't give me that sh%t about doctors slaving on their residencies, yeah 45K is real rough on a single 27yo.

First of all, you don't know that all interns are single. Second of all, they've got a STACK of debt. And third of all, they really, and mean REALLY put in the time. The comment about medical interns wasn't so much about pay, it was about working conditions and "duty day." A medical intern's working conditions are ostensibly much worse than ours. That's all I was trying to say.

But aviation, nooo , here you get a degree and then a Masters , maybe a Phd while you're at it, since a TAship pays more part-time than what a GOOD salaried full-time CFI job pays...

If you think a Phd. is going to help you in flying, you're smoking something.

Simply putting your nose to the grindstone and hoping for the best while you suck dirt for 10 years like a commited little pilot is simply foolish...

It's not foolish, it's risky. There's a difference. Success and risk are mutually inclusive.

and to suggest that 'attitude' is the key to succcess in this business is naive and ultimately biased by the dynamics of those who judge the condition of any matter based on their particular circumstance...

I think you are missing my point here. I never meant to imply that if one just has a "chipper" attitude and does their job like a brave little soldier that everything will work out fine for them. I'm sorry if that's what came across. What I meant to say is that success in this business, or what I would term "success," comes from risk, hard work in uncertainty, strategy, luck, sacrifice, and a realistic expectation for the results of said traits. Will I ever fly for a major? You know, probably not. That's fine. That's a realistic expectation. Are there other ways that I can fly for a living and have a fulfilling career? Yeah, as long as I don't tell myself that I'm a failure if I don't get this one job or tell myself that I should be making $XXk by a certain point in my career. Things take time, sometimes more time than expected. And if I did luck out and fly for a major, that'd just be icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

And what if because of unforeseen circumstances I can't fly for a living? Well, that's fine too. I'll figure something else out, and I'll still be a happy person. (Heaven knows I have a whole list of plan B's!) Hell, I'll just go fly gliders in addition to a "normal" job. I've got my CFI-G already and I don't need a medical.

Gosh, you guys are way too serious. You need to calm down and enjoy life. You're worrying yourselves into an early grave.

...without opening themselves to the possibility that maybe just maybe, those who are born rounding 3rd base and those at the plate with a holed-up wiffle bat don't quite have the same condition, and 'attitude' (read the subjecitve quantification of 'realistic expectations') has sh%t to do with it.

Sorry dude, I lost you there. Wiffle bat?

Nobody makes 200K anymore, people at the bottom get bracketed up, no expectations (emphasis added) of blowing up. Do that, those who wanted the big time are dis-incetivized (sp?) and those who truly value their professional worth are able to EAT and perform a duty with pride.

Is there an echo in here? I think that's what I've been trying to say all along-- realistic expectations. (And I think that'd be "disincentive-ized.")

Idealistic, perhaps, but I rather do that than whore out to a stupid high school speech about 'having the right attitude'.... I might be poor (ask the IRS they got tables for it) but at least I'm not a punk.

Yeah, a bit. But I'm idealistic enough to believe that success can be had somewhere in this industry. There are plenty of examples of it around.

Oh, and just for the record, I don't think I ever used the word "attitude."

-Goose

 

[hindsight2020]

Hey Goose,

Thanks for the clarifications, I concede I spoke with generalities, and did that to cover a wide range of issues. I should have quoted you to make it easier to follow my spiel. You bring good points and I think your outlook on the matter is healthy. I am glad to hear you reinforce the statement where you state ""...but I certainly wouldn't take $20k per year to fly airplanes indefinitely. Are you kidding? My goal was to eat, pay bills, and fly. $20k ain't going to cut it for very long"", that was the jist of my point, so we are in agreement.

The comment about the phD was just offered to provide some comparisons and examples in opportunity cost, which do nothing less than prove the obvious state of disarray this industry is as at the lower levels.

Being one not interested in the airline track, I must certainly buy your philosophy of flexibility in this industry, I have to look for alternative ways to fit flying into my livelihood BY DEFAULT. My point in the last paragraph was to reinforce this very issue; a change in the valuations, I think, would go a long way towards widening the economic and professional base of the flying business rather than choking it.

I'm just tired of the same "attitude" speech that comes with most people who were advantaged enough to preach from their positions of advantage about how 'hard work' is the key to success. Once again, I spoke in general and that particular point (the wiffle bat comment) was not directed at your earlier post; you made your position on that matter crispy clear and I am in agreement with it.

Good points nonetheless. I like threads like these, people should say what they mean, of course this ain't a problem in this little board now is it?