Goodbye Horizon Jets...

[messdaddy]

Anybody wanna buy a UW, UO, OSU or WSU Jet?

 

[labbats]

Most of us don't work at Horizon and that's incredibly vague.

Let me help.

Horizon considers selling off jets in favor of turboprops​

Alaska Air subsidiary Horizon Air is considering selling off all of its jet aircraft and switching to a fleet made up exclusively of turboprops, according to The News Tribune of Tacoma, Wash. Horizon added regional jets to its turboprop fleet nearly a decade ago, but the paper writes the carrier "is taking a second look" at that decision now that soaring fuel costs have taken some of the luster off certain types of regional jets. The News Tribune writes that Horizon, "citing the superior fuel efficiency of its modern turboprop airliners, might sell its 20 Bombardier 70-seat regional jets and replace them with Bombardier 76-seat Q-400 propeller-driven airliners."
The News Tribune says "in addition to improved fuel economy, the Q-400s would give Horizon the advantage of a single-aircraft fleet. The airline is already scheduled to retire its remaining 37-seat Q-200 propjets and replace them with Q-400s. If it replaces its jets with Q-400s, the turboprop will be the only plane in its inventory." Flying a single aircraft type can reduce an airline's maintenance and training costs and simplify fleet scheduling. Horizon's sister carrier –- Alaska Air -– is currently in the midst of doing just that, phasing out its remaining MD-80s as it transitions to an all-Boeing 737 fleet. As for the possibility that Horizon will sell off its regional jets, Horizon spokesman Dan Russo tells the News Tribune: "We haven't made a decision yet, but we're very close to one."

 

[MALSR]

Anybody wanna buy a UW, UO, OSU or WSU Jet?

Maybe the RJ check airmen will cash out their 401ks and buy them when they retire after finding out they have to go to q400 initial training.

 

[M-crit]

So thats a net loss of 24 airframes at horizon; has there been any rumors of an RFP to soak up this loss of airplanes?

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080424/aqth056.html?.v=45

 

[mach none]

It is going to be real fun around here when management announces a third party vendor to perform that lost flying in an RJ.

 

[M-crit]

It is going to be real fun around here when management announces a third party vendor to perform that lost flying in an RJ.

I guarantee they're going to have a 3rd party do maybe 10 or 15 jets for them. Are they just going to no fly to BUR anymore? Give me a break. Thanks to Horizon EXCO for bargaining themselves right out of a job. Well done.

 

[WSurf]

So do you guys think Republic might set up since they just cx'ed there Frontier Contract?

 

[wscrj]

yup...

Group would LOVE to have a bunch of 100 seat jets flown by non-Group pilots.

The whipsaw potential is enormous for both Horizon and Alaska.

Whomever picks this contract should not expect a warm welcome.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

Thanks to Horizon EXCO for bargaining themselves right out of a job. Well done.

Yup, one of the only pilot groups that had the nuts to try to keep the bar from lowering even further, and this is what we get. F*cking lovely! This industry is screwed.

 

[JetSpeed219]

So do you guys think Republic might set up since they just cx'ed there Frontier Contract?

The airgroup doesn't want 70 seaters, they want 90-100.

 

[MALSR]

Yup, one of the only pilot groups that had the nuts to try to keep the bar from lowering even further, and this is what we get. F*cking lovely! This industry is screwed.

You need to set the bar high in ways such that captains aren't making 150k+ for flying 70 seats. That will just price you right out of the competition, which it did. There's nothing wrong with making good money in this industry but that is ridiculous for 70 seats. To think to yourself that management of a publicly held company wouldn't do anything to combat that is even more ignorant.

 

[Icelandair]

8 year Capt making $82 per credit hour.
4 year FO making $41 per credit hour.

Take an average Q400 flight of 1.5 hours from SEA to BOI.

Capt cost = 82 * 1.5 = $123
FO cost = 41 * 1.5 = $62

Now there are 76 seats on a Q400. So if the crew worked for FREE, every passenger could save

$123 + $62 = $185/76 = $2.43 per ticket. Now add in 401k, health care, etc and maybe it reaches $3.00 off each ticket if the crew worked for FREE.

Crew prices have nothing to do with this decision by management to burn the place down.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

You need to set the bar high in ways such that captains aren't making 150k+ for flying 70 seats. That will just price you right out of the competition, which it did. There's nothing wrong with making good money in this industry but that is ridiculous for 70 seats. To think to yourself that management of a publicly held company wouldn't do anything to combat that is even more ignorant.

Do your math again and get back to me, would ya?

And thanks for the support, by the way. With attitudes like that, it's no wonder our pay rates keep up the downward spiral.

 

[bjack]

I guarantee they're going to have a 3rd party do maybe 10 or 15 jets for them. Are they just going to no fly to BUR anymore? Give me a break. Thanks to Horizon EXCO for bargaining themselves right out of a job. Well done.

What??? The EXCO did not make the decision to get rid of the jets. Granted, they would not take just any kind of contract just so there was the possibility of getting different jets. More than likely even if the EXCO would have agreed to the contract that management was trying to ram down our throats, the company would have done the same thing. Saying that RJ flying is just too expensive. Then we would still be losing airplanes and have a crappy contract to boot. This is not the EXCO's fault!!! It was the Air Groups decision.

 

[regionaltard]

You need to set the bar high in ways such that captains aren't making 150k+ for flying 70 seats. That will just price you right out of the competition, which it did. There's nothing wrong with making good money in this industry but that is ridiculous for 70 seats. To think to yourself that management of a publicly held company wouldn't do anything to combat that is even more ignorant.

Even if that number were accurate, what percentage of the cost of a ticket do you think that would be? Fact is, the fact that Horizon has done comparatively well in the post-9/11 era despite industry-leading pay is one of the industry's dirty little secrets. Why are we trying to drag them down to our level instead of trying to better our own circumstances?

 

[Yodafly]

Makes since, why fly an RJ when the Q400 is just as fast on most routes and burns less gas. Single type is the way to go. Dash is also talking about a 90 seat version.

 

[bjack]

Supposedly they are going to try and finish the pilot contract within the next 6 months or so with some amazing new seminar. If that happens I wonder if next year at this time they will suddenly decide to buy some 100 seat jets?

 

[DashTrash400]

Compared to the cost of oil, Horizon's higher crew costs aren't enough to justify what air group is doing. The real key here is that Horizon is structured more like a major than a feeder...the numbers I've seen have only 40% of their pax connecting to AS, they get a pretty small percentage of their income from AS for "harmonization" flying, and they pay their own fuel tab. And Air Group expects them to make a profit on their own, whereas most airlines realize that losing a bit of money on air service agreements with regional carriers is the price of extra feed to mainline. That's the real reason that CR7s aren't profitable for QX when they're such a hot commodity elsewhere.

Also, keep in mind that QX was a launch customer for the CR7 and got a good deal on them; I've heard that QX can get about $5m more APIECE now for them than they paid brand new.

Really, if you compare Horizon's CR7 CA rates to Skywest's CR7 rates or Republic's E170 rates, it's a $12-20 difference for each year, a pretty insignificant percentage of the total hourly cost of operating the airplane. In any case, I think longevity contributes more to high crew costs than the industry-leading payrates, and I'm not sure how you "fix" that. It's a matter of geography more than anything: pilots from the PNW who don't want to commute don't have much choice in airlines to work for, so becoming a lifer at QX was an easy choice.

I feel bad for the FOs on the Q400. Sitting there listening to the ex-F28 captains b!itch about it was bad enough, but that'll be nothing compared to the grumpy old ex-CR7 captains.

 

[rudder]

Getting rid of the jets is just a precursor to the acquisition of Alaska by SWA. Horizon will be sold as part of the transaction. SWAPA will possibly allow the Q400 feed to continue (or not).

 

[regionaltard]

I feel bad for the FOs on the Q400. Sitting there listening to the ex-F28 captains b!itch about it was bad enough, but that'll be nothing compared to the grumpy old ex-CR7 captains.

Considering that it sounds like a lot of those FO's are going to be grumpy ex-captains themselves it should be a hoot for everyone.