Good Luck to the Frontier Pilots

[GuppyWN]

What is the point of this? It never happened and therefore is a waste of time to argue over what ifs. Seems to me everyone got what they wanted.

Sorry bro. I'll disengage now but when a guy that was very neutral (stayseated) becomes vindictive and spreads false information I am inclined to respond. Bottom line is SWA offered a job to all F9 pilots, whether on furlough or not and they would have ALL had recall rights for 7 years AFTER to 2 year max seperate ops. That's 9 years by my public math and the 65 dudes start leaving in 3.

Good luck to all,
Gup

 

[learherkjay]

I wanted to see the F9 deal go through, but I can also see why F9 guys were a little gun shy about the deal. I suppose they felt the Republic deal offered them status quo whereas the SWA deal had a lot of stones left unturned. Besides, it sounded from the articles I read that Stemmler already had a deal in hand with RAH and didn't really have an interest in working with SWA.

So, I guess that is why I stated everyone got what they wanted. SWAPA pilots didn't want any seniority loss and F9 guys wanted to take their chances with Republic. I hope Republic treats them well.

This SWA/F9 deal will be he said-he said till the cows come home....I do agree with Gup though, SWAPA would have fought for the F9ers once on the list and I think the majority of us would have welcomed F9 guys here. But, it didn't happen, so time to move on...

 

[starchkr]

What is the point of this? It never happened and therefore is a waste of time to argue over what ifs. Seems to me everyone got what they wanted.

I was just going to say the same thing. There's absolutely no point in arguing over which deal "would" have been better...we got bought by RAH and we had no choice in it. Done deal, end of argument.

Now the only thing we can do (F9 guys/gals) is to try to see what we can make of it if anything...i can see it coming now...some duche bag is going to use what i just said to rip me/us apart...oh well, welcome back from vacation right. Gotta love FI!!!

 

[FatesPawn]

OK, for the millionith time. Call Tom, or email him. Ask him to see the "SWAPA Proposal". Not the SWAPA "talking points", or any form of communication with the SWAPA pilots. Ask to see what was offered as the proposal to the FAPA pilots.

Look very closely. It is only one page long. Look on both sides if you have to, and you will not find anything about recall rights.

You will find some very interesting language about how the current and future FAPA furloughs would have been treated.

After you read the proposal, ask him how many times he was asked specifically about recall rights by FAPA, and then ask him what his specific answer was, or wasn't.

I don't know why I even care anymore, but every time I see someone post something that I know to be completely innacurrate I get a little spooled up. I guess when I begin to get raped by RAH I will forget all about SWAPA Proposal. Good Times.

Ok, how bout this? Looks to me like the "integration list" for both companies comprise the Master seniority list. Give us your list -we'll give you OUR list, and together, they are the master seniority list. Did we define how you establish your list? No, I guess not. EVERYONE would be included.

I'm sorry, did YOUR union not supply you with OUR offer?

-fate



SWAPA Offer

SWAPA makes the following offer to FAPA and the pilots of F9

On the date of closing of the transaction between SWA and F9, FAPA will provide SWAPA with a list of their pilots, commensurate in number with Southwest’s operational fleet needs for Airbus aircraft as specified by Southwest Airlines (The Company.)

The FAPA supplied list will be considered their “integration list” for this contract. The seniority order of the FAPA integration list will be determined by FAPA on that date. SWAPA will also provide an “integration list” as determined on the date of closing.

The combined list of SWAPA pilots and FAPA pilots will be considered the new Master Seniority list.

The order of the Master Seniority List will begin with the most senior SWAPA pilot down to the most junior SWAPA pilot at the date of closing. The list will continue with the most Senior FAPA pilot down to the most junior FAPA pilot at date of closing. FAPA pilots will be placed below SWAPA pilots on the combined Master Seniority List.

FAPA Pilots in excess of the fleet needs as specified in paragraph 1 will be considered on furlough status from F9 with FAPA remaining their bargaining agent.

As pilots from F9 transition to SWA through the fence agreement, the pilots will assume their position on the Master seniority list with SWAPA acting as their bargaining agent.
Denver Domicile protection beyond the fence period. Up to 50% of all newly created 737 f/o positions will be offered to f9 pilots.

Company Considerations

The Company has offered to make the following compensation offerings to the f9 pilots through this agreement.

Pay protection. Pay for FAPA pilots will be maintained by a trip to hour conversion rate of 1.139:1

The pay rates for FAPA pilots, upon the date of closing, will snap to the greater of F9 non-concessionary book rates or Southwest F/O pay based on the FAPA pilots longevity with F9.

During the pay protection period, the Company agrees to index newly established f9 pay rates to SWAPA Section 6 increases


Contingencies

Approval of this offer is contingent on FAPA and SWAPA agreeing to the following:

FAPA and SWAPA will endorse this offer to their membership and begin the ratification process at the earliest contractually allowable date.

This offer expires at 9:30pm Central Daylight Time.

 

[FatesPawn]

After you read the proposal, ask him how many times he was asked specifically about recall rights by FAPA, and then ask him what his specific answer was, or wasn't.

Oh, and the answer to that question is ZERO.

 

[av88tor]

The funny thing about the whole argument is that enough if FAPA and SWAPA had come to an agreement that night I don't think that SWA would have won the bid. There seemed to be alot of other factors that killed the deal, not just the pilots not agreeing.

 

[StaySeated]

That is the proposal, and we apparently will continue to interpret the furlough language differently.

It isn't a very complex scenario. F9 has 56 furloughed and would furlough at least another 120. Those pilots would remain FAPA pilots with FAPA as their bargaining agent. Eventually, the buses get phased out and the active FAPA pilots transition to SWA.

What happens when all of the buses are gone, and all of the active FAPA pilots are now at SWA? Does FAPA still exist? If so, how? Why would the FAPA furloughes treated differently than the active pilots? Why wouldn't the furloughes become SWAPA pilots on day one, just like the first active FAPA pilots that transition over?


We have already gone in circles on this a few times. I am not sure why "gup" would consider my post vindictive. I am just expressing what was one of the major concerns about the proposal. As several other people have posted here and SWAPA president has commented during an interview, the SWA bid was in trouble as early as Tuesday and the unions didn't even meet until Wednesday. It didn't happen, end of story.

It sounds like you guys have your eyes on Sun Country, and we have our own circus with RAH.

Best of luck to everyone.

 

[StaySeated]

The funny thing about the whole argument is that enough if FAPA and SWAPA had come to an agreement that night I don't think that SWA would have won the bid. There seemed to be alot of other factors that killed the deal, not just the pilots not agreeing.

I agree, and have stated that this wasn't killed by one side or the other, it just self-destructed.

 

[learherkjay]

Yup - when Republic wiped the 150 million in debt from the books it gave all creditors .18 on the dollar vs. .12 on the dollar with SWA's bid.

In the end, it was about money regardless of what we expert pilots think...

 

[crashpad]

Now F9 Pilots must shift their thinking from a seniority# with a Big Boy,
to "Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before".