Good…embarrassing…or just plain out of touch?

[BoilerUP]

You would think so...but they don't benefit as much as you think as they lose the deduction in proportion to the personal use of the a/c by executives compared to business use. Depending on the company, it is significant.

That's my point.

There are some operators that have 95% or more business use (my company is one) and for many those operators the tax benefits help a purchase decision...or help a purchase decision NOW vs. a year or two from now, which is the whole purpose of economic stimulus.

I'm not interested in an economic or tax policy debate as I am not a CPA, MBA and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...just want to reinforce that one can't reasonably say that accelerated/bonus depreciation is a useless policy.

Some folks won't benefit from it, while others will - let's not make blanket statements (politicians are good enough doing that without our help) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And let's be honest - the ONLY reason to exclude aircraft from bonus depreciation (which is extended to any number of business-related capital purchases) is purely political...not monetary.

 

[gret]

Aircraft aren't being singled out, the provision affects all capital assets.

My point is that the NBAA uses what little political capital it has anymore on areas that provide little benefit or to fight battles it can't win...it would seem more prudent to hold back and lobby for more important items that affect private aviation and do it like grown ups.

The NBAA and NATA are not organizations that have a lasting impact on our lives one way or another...most aviation professionals only having a passing interest or knowledge about them....except for the salary survey of course... which is incredibly bogus

They are simply dues collectors who try and justify their existence by making noise about something that they really don't know anything about. Waste of any kind is bad.

 

[Flying Illini]

Aircraft aren't being singled out, the provision affects all capital assets.

My point is that the NBAA uses what little political capital it has anymore on areas that provide little benefit or to fight battles it can't win...it would seem more prudent to hold back and lobby for more important items that affect private aviation and do it like grown ups.

The NBAA and NATA are not organizations that have a lasting impact on our lives one way or another...most aviation professionals only having a passing interest or knowledge about them....except for the salary survey of course... which is incredibly bogus

They are simply dues collectors who try and justify their existence by making noise about something that they really don't know anything about. Waste of any kind is bad.

Interesting take. My company pays NBAA dues and this is a cause that is important to us so we are glad that NBaA is lobbying for it. An industry group should lobby for anything and everything that benefits their members. I'm curious, what is your background as I can't tell from your profile?

 

[gret]

Interesting take. My company pays NBAA dues and this is a cause that is important to us so we are glad that NBaA is lobbying for it. An industry group should lobby for anything and everything that benefits their members. I'm curious, what is your background as I can't tell from your profile?

Agreed, they should work on all matters that improve the private aviation industry. However, one has to choose the proper points to make and how to make them. Below are three pieces addressing the use of corporate owned aircraft...without laughing or being biased...who seems more credible and makes their points objectively, effectively, and without sounding condescending-


Corporate Jet Set: Leisure vs. Business

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703551304576260871791710428.html

NBAA Sample

http://www.forbes.com/sites/busines...-from-the-president-stings-business-aviation/

NATA Sample

http://www.nata.aero/PressRelease/default.aspx?id=85

It is also recognized that the heads of the NBAA and NATA have tough jobs trying to defend the indefensible (i.e. using the corporate jet (Falcon 2000 if I remember) to fly the CEO’s teenage daughter back and forth to California from Colorado on a weekly basis for a year so she can finish high school).

Too many examples of this that taint the entire industry and as usual, the exception is what gets the attention. It's kinda funny that many of the executives who abuse the situation laugh at the criticism and continue their bad behavior while we are trying to defend them so we can have jobs.

My background is primarily working patient intake at a meatpacking plant in Kansas and I’m trying to land a job as head of public relations at a national business jet industry group.

 

[JimNtexas]

I'm old enough to remember the 10% 'luxury tax'.

The same types of people who are now saying 'rich people don't really care about tax increases, they'll still buy planes and boats even if they cost a bit more' were saying it then.

The luxury tax was part of a tax comprise plan demanded by Democrats. It was going to help balance the budget and restore fairness to the tax code. Sound familiar?

People with rudimentary understanding of economics knew that when you raises taxes on something, you get less of that thing. Then as now, this simple concept fell on the deaf ears of the moocher class.

Even most conservative economic observers were shocked at the magnitude of the economic disaster caused by the luxury tax.

American custom boat building was pretty much wiped out, as sales of American made custom boats fell to almost zero. Custom boat building moved to Taiwan. Private aircraft sales of airplanes hit by the tax (those priced above $250000) were crippled.

It cost more to administer the luxury tax than the tax ever collected.

To give credit to Bubba, even though he promised higher taxes, he did help kill the insane luxury tax.

The same is about to happen again. Democrats are going to force insane tax hikes with the sole purpose of satisfying the emotional needs of the moocher class.

Most Democrat leaders (other than the Choomster) know that raising taxes during a recession will drive the economy deeper into the ditch, they don't care.

Senior Democrats will still get rich. They'll get jobs as 7 figure 'coordinators' in non-profits, subsidized green energy firms, or lobbying firms.

It's only the proles like you and me who will suffer.

 

[tomgoodman]

To give credit to Bubba, even though he promised higher taxes, he did help kill the insane luxury tax.

It also helped that many of the yachts were built in Maine, home state of the Senate Majority Leader.

 

[OHGOON]

the deaf ears of the moocher class.

satisfying the emotional needs of the moocher class.

Most Democrat leaders (other than the Choomster) know that raising taxes during a recession will drive the economy deeper into the ditch, they don't care.

Senior Democrats will still get rich. They'll get jobs as 7 figure 'coordinators' in non-profits, subsidized green energy firms, or lobbying firms.

It's only the proles like you and me who will suffer.

Not a bad post if you could have only avoided your baser prejudices and borderline racist remarks about our current president.

References to the so called "Moocher class" really worked out well in the current economic climate, just ask the latest classless disaster that ran on the Republican ticket. Almost made one miss the Alaskan Christian Dominatrix...she was at least something to look at as long as you turned off the sound completely.

Just to set the record straight. No new luxury tax is being considered and the rich might only be asked to pay what they paid during bubba's days when the US enjoyed the longest economic expansion in it's entire history. Hardly an insurmountable tax burden set to destroy it all.

Give it a rest already, the rich have had an incredible run. From another perspective, they are the actual moochers, living ever larger while the rest of us suck wind. All that is actually happening is the pendulum has begun to swing back for the first time since 1980. Most people in the US (except for white anglo saxon males) seem no longer so easily convinced that "feeding the rich" at all costs to themselves, is such a great recipe for a brighter future.

BTW: Are you part of the "moocher class" if you get a nice fat Home Owner deduction? How about you will probably enjoy a nice cushy military pension while still young enough to continue flying somewhere else? (You will have earned it, I'm sure, but it still comes out of our collective pockets last I checked.) Not to mention that this whole thread is about justifying another tax break for the rich so we can keep our jobs. In other words the rest of the country should pony up whatever it takes for you and I to keep flying that cushy million dollar jet?? Me thinks most folks would call this something much worse than a moocher, a hypo......

 

[JimNtexas]

borderline racist remarks about our current president

So now it's racist to quote from one of the many autobiographies that our President has written?

You know what is really racist? Saying that because the President is part African-American means he can't handle criticism.

the rich might only be asked to pay what they paid during bubba's days when the US enjoyed the longest economic expansion in it's entire history.

OK fine, let's put taxes back where they were during the 90s.

BUT let's reduce government spending to 19% of GDP as it was back then.

Currently the government is consuming 25% of GDP, and projected to go over 40% in the near term.

Oh, and of course to get back to the Clinton economy we have to cancel Obamacare for the same reason Clinton dropped Hillarycare. And we have to roll back regulations to the level of the Clinton era.

No new luxury tax is being considered

.

I hope you're right about that, but plenty of new taxes are being considered, and each new tax inhibits economic growth. The luxury tax fiasco was a teachable moment about the huge unintended consequence of tax increases.

Too bad Obama voters can't learn from the past.

 

[OHGOON]

JimNtexas,

I didn't mean the term you used was racist but your underlying vitriol. What I mean is, there is just no way, Obama would inspire this kind of open disrespect and hatred if it was just about how he conducts himself or his record. Secondly, he handles criticism better than anyone I have ever met, certainly better than most folk on this board.

I'm fine with everything else you suggest and I would go further. Let's cut back the ridiculously bloated defense budget which has nothing to do with actual National Security anymore and everything to do with greedy government funded corporations who cannot produce anything of value other than overpriced & over budget weapons systems designed for the Cold War era. I agree with cancelling Obama Care too. Let's get rid of that compromised mess and have a nice clean, efficient single payer plan (Universal Health Care) and kill off these stupidly greedy health insurance companies in the process. How about that for cost savings? Look at most of Europe, their economies may not be what you would like but most countries provide way better healthcare services at a much reduced cost both to consumers and their government. The argument that people have to wait for stuff sometimes is just so much overwrought BS. People wait here too, some even die when their medically untrained private for profit HMO "claims specialist" decides they don't qualify for a procedure. Or how about the 50 million without any kind of insurance, how long do you think they have to wait in their local emergency rooms? Do you think they are able to immediately run out and get an MRI whenever their Docs (who they don't actually have) prescribe one?

Oh and yes, let's roll back regulations. That's worked out splendidly in the not so recent past, i.e. Enron, Lehman Brothers, and the whole 2008 crash. Man were you in a coma when all that happened?

Obama voters actually have learned from the past, it's why the Dinosaur Party got it's ass kicked despite the economy still being in the dumpster! Just in case you haven't noticed, we are in the majority despite what Mr. Rove and Mr. Morris so hilariously tried to spin away on election eve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ugUhWIpwQ

Most folks, who are paying attention, have long since realized that the trickle down theory or rather the tinkle on theory (as in getting pissed on) did not and will not work for them in the future. Good luck with continuing on selling stale old discredited ideas. Maybe secession could be an option for you?

The point is that in the real world, outside of the Republican bubble, there are no clear black and white ideological answers. There really is only boring, down the middle compromise and that includes the rich paying a little more. The free ride is over; if that costs a few jets, then maybe those shouldn't be flying around in the first place. After all wasn't the mess the fracs are in caused mostly by overselling the product to people who ultimately couldn't afford it long term?

 

[JimNtexas]

JimNtexas,

I didn't mean the term you used was racist but your underlying vitriol. What I mean is, there is just no way, Obama would inspire this kind of open disrespect and hatred if it was just about how he conducts himself or his record. Secondly, he handles criticism better than anyone I have ever met, certainly better than most folk on this board.

That's pretty funny considering how much naked hatred your party showered on President Bush for 8 years. And President Bush never suggested that anyone take 'revenge' on anyone because of it.

Let's cut back the ridiculously bloated defense budget which has nothing to do with actual National Security anymore and everything to do with greedy government funded corporations who cannot produce anything of value other than overpriced & over budget weapons systems designed for the Cold War era.

So your solution for greedy government is more government? And defense is the only area that is going to be cut.

I agree with cancelling Obama Care too. Let's get rid of that compromised mess and have a nice clean, efficient single payer plan (Universal Health Care) and kill off these stupidly greedy health insurance companies in the process. How about that for cost savings? Look at most of Europe, their economies may not be what you would like but most countries provide way better healthcare services at a much reduced cost both to consumers and their government.

Oh yes, let's be more like Greece or France. What could go wrong? Obamacare seems to be designed by someone who took all the worst features of every other national health plan and rolled it into one horrible ugly ball of special interest favors.

The argument that people have to wait for stuff sometimes is just so much overwrought BS. People wait here too, some even die when their medically untrained private for profit HMO "claims specialist" decides they don't qualify for a procedure.

Google UK national health service 'pathway to death'.

Or how about the 15 million without any kind of insurance, how long do you think they have to wait in their local emergency rooms?

Fixed it for you.

Oh and yes, let's roll back regulations. That's worked out splendidly in the not so recent past, i.e. Enron, Lehman Brothers, and the whole 2008 crash.

Yes, lets roll back regulations that let people buy houses they could not possibly afford. Good idea. Let's roll back Fannie and Freddie. President Bush begged the democrats to get the mortgage industry under control, and the Democrats said he hated poor people.

Man were you in a coma when all that happened?

No, in fact I understand that corrupt democrats and regulators were at the heart of the crash.

Obama voters actually have learned from the past, it's why the Dinosaur Party got it's *** kicked despite the economy still being in the dumpster!

The Dinosaur party lost because the government schooling system has produced enough people who cannot handle even simple numbers.

 

[OHGOON]

1)I don't have a party but if you mean progressive, liberal thinkers, then their hatred came about because "W" was an unqualified imbecile completely out of his league who tried unsuccessfully to cover that up with boundless arrogance. The crash happened on his watch and was brought on by grossly inadequate financial regulation. I guess you just don't want to see that.

Obama on the other hand, is at the very least intelligent and tries to build bipartisan consensus when and wherever possible. How's it his fault that he was confronted at every turn by a rabid GOP which made it their expressed and seemingly only goal to unelect him. I guess that brilliant strategy backfired...:laugh:

2)My solution is effective government, you know the kind that pays and trains its pilots & navigators to be the best in the world. Judging from your profile one would have thought you would know that by now. I never said other things should not be cut, you assumed that. I said, I would go further...You know what they say about assuming, it makes an a$$ out of...you know, right?

3) Having a little trouble with your geography, how did that go over in the backseat? Greece and France are all over the news and especially vilified by the Fixed News crowd, however there are others. Ever look into Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Britain, and yes even France? They all provide better healthcare. Your favorite, France, is actually ranked #1 while the US, "THE BEST IN THE WORLD AT EVERYTHING", is ranked between Costa Rica and Slovenia at #37. :0

Take a look for yourself..

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcare-systems-in-the-world-2012-6?op=1

BTW: Why is Obamacare such an issue for you? I don't like it very much either but it's a step, albeit a small one, in the right direction. Universal Healthcare is what works best and has proven itself to be the most cost effective. Did you bother clicking on the links above? Secondly, if you are in the military you already have access to such a healthcare system, managed by your government from now until you expire. Why is it good enough for you but not the rest of us??

4) No earthly reason to google that. I can get the same hype from the the "Wrong" Media anywhere. I have actually lived abroad and have experienced Universal Healthcare including France. Have you? It seems you enjoy loosing yourself in propaganda and paranoia, I prefer numbers and facts.

5)Nope it's 50% +/-, you fixed nothing but tried to cloud the issue in your favor. Nice try but no cigar.

According to the United States Census Bureau, in 2009 there were 50.7 million people in the US (16.7% of the population)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_coverage_in_the_United_States

The number of people without health insurance coverage declined from 50.0 million in 2010 to 48.6 million in 2011, as did the percentage without coverage - from 16.3 percent in 2010 to 15.7 percent in 2011.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_wealth/cb12-172.html

6) No let's actually not roll back regulations. Thanks for making my point here. The crash happened because of too little regulation and not because of too much! What happened in the Housing sector was pure BS and folks should have gone to jail. Didn't happen because the elite looks out for itself first and foremost. Bush never begged anyone and he caved to Wall Street like they all do because those boys have the cash to buy anyone they want in Washington. Grow up will ya.

7) You "understand" very little! If not a coma, then you must have been suffering from a serious psychotic delusional state to believe the crash happened because of Democrats and Regulators. The actual crash and subsequent TARP bailout happened under "W" and his Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. Obama had not even been elected yet. Regulators are executive branch political appointees for the most part. So since Bush was GOP, it stands to reason they were GOP too.

8) Yes I agree that our Public Schools are an embarrassment for the most part. However the Dinosaur Party lost despite people being relative uneducated, not because of it. In other words the majority of people figured out that the GOP was not good for them despite not having very many intellectual tools at their disposal to arrive at that conclusion. Not even the massive amounts of private billionaire money spent to confuse and obfuscate the issues further could hide the ugly truth that Republicans are just out for themselves and the rich.

BTW, who de-funded the Federal School Budget on a massive scale first? Maybe you're to young to remember, but it was Ronny Reagan, that doddering old fool you "right" thinkers worship as a demigod now.

 

[gret]

Geez man...you used 80 lines of text, over 4,600 characters, 783 words. Way too much!

I made it thru high school and this is even tough for me to follow.

Any comments about-
The thread topic..unions...ooops sorry...taxes.
The bravery of the Michigan legislature and governor.
AIN Alerts today talking about frax activity for the month down 12.2% in 2012 versus 2011.

Argus: Business Aircraft Flying Slumps in November

After posting a gain in October, business aircraft flying hit a patch of turbulence last month, falling 2.3 percent year-over-year, according to TraqPak data released yesterday by aviation services company Argus. These results were partially weighed downed by the temporary shutdown of Avantair’s flight operations from late October to mid-November, Argus noted. But it wasn’t all bad news–Part 135 activity, which took a big hit over the past two years, logged a consecutive increase last month, rising 5.6 percent versus a year ago. (In October, this operational category climbed 9.7-percent year-over-year.) Part 91 flying last month slipped by 3.6 percent from November 2011, while activity at the fractional providers fell 12.2 percent. By aircraft categories, light jet activity rose 2 percent from a year ago, while midsize and large-cabin flying fell modestly, decreasing 0.8 percent and 0.3 percent, respectively. Turboprop flying dipped by 7.1 percent year-over-year, in large part due to Avantair. Looking at individual market segments, Part 135 light jets posted the biggest year-over-year increase, up 11 percent. Fractional turboprops recorded the largest decline, dropping an astounding 40.6 percent from a year ago–again due to the voluntary grounding at Avantair. Argus TraqPak data provides “serial-number-specific aircraft arrival and departure information on all IFR flights in the U.S.”

 

[OHGOON]

Well Gret,

at least it proves you can count. Good for you.

Short enough for ya??

 

[gret]

Yup...

Smart man once told me...you can't make a mistake by listening...

He also said...The supreme being gave us two ears and only one mouth for a reason...

Also...nothing is as good as it seems or as bad...

He just wouldn't stop with the pearls of wisdom...he eventually got fired because he drove the boss batty...

 

[HalinTexas]

Interesting that we can blame "selective-regulation" for the '08 crash, but not the many years of solid growth under the same.

Don't get me started on the FED.

W. passed TARP, not BO.

Don't forget the 1986 Tax Reform Act that almost killed off GA as well as yacht building. I fear we may be repeating ourselves. Don't worry, some Chinese government sponsored group will come and save the day like Cirrus Aircraft.