GO Cleared for take-off!!

[FreedomAList]

OK, Its not like Go-Jets is being formed to force Trans-States pilots to accept a sub-standard contract like Freedom was. I didn't think Trans-States was in contract negotiations, are they?

Actually, Freedom was originally created to get around scope at USAir. This should sound very, very familiar. (USAir pilots wouldn't let Mesa fly >50 seats at America West, if you can believe it). A year into it, relief from scope was ironed out, then the company proceeded to use Freedom a whipsaw during contract negotiations.

Expect more of the same when the time comes. TSA can threaten to "transfer assets" from TSA to Go-Jets down the road if the TSA guys won't accept a contract the same or cheaper than Go-Jets.

Mesa was offered less pay and worse work rules than Freedom by the time all was said and done. Then everybody got stuck on the same contract.

This is just a perfectly legal (and sickening) way for TSA to keep the man down. And I haven't seen anyone propose a way to stop it. ALPA is good for what, exactly?

 

[theo]

pipejockey, you are right, one reason for the formation of GJs is to get around the scope American has. But there are other reasons. This conveniently allows the company to bypass contract requirements of the Trans States pilots regarding at least industry average pay for a new aircraft type, and it may or may not violate our scope. (For all of you arm chair lawyers out there we'll leave it for the arbitrator to decide.) This is also exactly like Freedom. Though we are not in contract negotiations now (we will be this winter) GJ still puts considerable downward pressure on the TSA pilot group when negotiations begin.

If you are accurate in your comments the reason TSA is doing this is to avoid restrictions in the AA contract prohibiting the flying of larger aircraft. So how will TSA Holdings be able to use GO-Jet as a whipsaw against you by threatening moving flying from TSA to Go-Jet. Doesn't that put them right were they started? Wouldn't they then be in violation of the AA contract that prohibits such flying?

 

[Yank McCobb]

ALPA is good for what, exactly?

It's always the regional pilots (and usually the regional lifers) that shout this the loudest. The fact that they think ALL ALPA is for or has ever done is to exist to promote their individual careers is laughable. And shows ignorance personafied. I belong to a different union (an in-house) but not for a moment am I naive enough not to understand just how much ALPA has done for the safety, legal and regulatory side of this profession. Too bad we all aren't about ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE.

 

[MaxPilot]

If you are accurate in your comments the reason TSA is doing this is to avoid restrictions in the AA contract prohibiting the flying of larger aircraft. So how will TSA Holdings be able to use GO-Jet as a whipsaw against you by threatening moving flying from TSA to Go-Jet. Doesn't that put them right were they started? Wouldn't they then be in violation of the AA contract that prohibits such flying?

Trans States had United and USAir code shares in addition to American. The United and USAir flying could all be transfered to G_O_J_e_t.

 

[XTW]

.... but not for a moment am I naive enough not to understand just how much ALPA has done for the safety, legal and regulatory side of this profession. Too bad we all aren't about ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE.

Just to add, I've known several pilots that had medical issues. The ALPA medical department was VERY instrumental in getting those pilots through the process of regaining their medical certificates. That, in itself, can be well worth the cost of membership.

X

 

[A350]

All:

This is just another shining example of why management is winning and labor is losing. As long as there are more pilots out there looking for work than there are jobs, it is a supply and demand study.

If the previous poster is accurate, and TSA pilots aren't allowed to go to Go Jet, than it is indeed different than Freedom.

As a furloughed USAirways pilot, I can assure you that the main reason Freedom was created was to allow Mesa to operate aircraft bigger than 50 seats. The U scope clause was cut and dried. However, FreedomA list is correct. After that was ironed out, JO did use it to his advantage, but not in the way that almighty ALPA said so. If fact, this whipsawing started with the CCAir pilots, who mightily refused to screw their fellow pilots at Mesa only to be fed to the JO wolf when push came to shove. And the Mesa ALPA unit will deny this till their dying breath.

Mesa ALPA helped destroy their own chances for unity when they started calling Freedom pilots scabs. They allowed a rift in their own group by blackballing pilots who went to Freedom to get those 70 and 90 seat jets. Then the stage for disharmony between the groups was all but a certainty. This is where the two situations are completely different. Mesa pilots were encouraged to bid Freedom. ALPA put the stop to that in every way they could. Fear, intimidation, the scab word. Had Mesa ALPA let whomever wanted to bid Freedom without prejudice, everyone could have played nice and they together could have brought Mesa to its knees. This would have made JO take notice, or he could have started another airline at great expense.

So I don't know what the answer is for you folks at TSA.....but if you are allowed to go to Go Jet and can, do it now so the company can't play one group off on the other.

A350

 

[Black Water Dog]

OK, I haven't really been following this Go-Jet thing but I thought this seperate entity of Trans-States was only so they could operate an aircraft with over 50 seats for United. Americans scope prevents Trans-States from operating the larger jets. So whats with all the scab talk and lists and the like? Its not like Go-Jets is being formed to force Trans-States pilots to accept a sub-standard contract like Freedom was. I didn't think Trans-States was in contract negotiations, are they?

HoJet was formed manifestly to get around the 70 seat scope clause. People will argue the "nuances" for years to come, but the latent function of HoJet is to hose the TSA pilot group. One would be hard pressed to find a more pilot-hostile management in the regional industry. (Interviewing CFI's and other 121 wannabes, take careful note! There are worse things than flight instruction.) Only by owning a privately held and relatively obscure company does Hulas Konodia not have the notiriety of Frank Lorenzo.

 

[hoover]

If Go Jets were owned by anybody other than a guy who already owns an airline, no one would think twice about it. If the other airline were non-union, same thing. But because he already owns and operates a union airline, and Go Jets is "gasp" NON-UNION, all of a sudden it is evil incarnate, and anyone who ever thought of applying is a scab.

I have to hand it to ALPA. They have been successful portrayed themselves as "seizing the moral high ground"

 

[A350]

ALPA and "moral high ground" don't belong in the same thought. ALPA has good qualities insofar as medical, safety, and even legal when it comes to defending a pilot wrongly accused.

A lot of this "scab" talk is hype thrown about by people who have been airline pilots for all of about a month and think they are entitled to a quick upgrade and move up the seniority list. I have a news flash for the pilots out there. There is no entitlement in this industry. One day you are sitting pretty and the next you are furloughed because another union pilot has undercut your wages and benefits. Your choice will be to stick with ALPA and work at Home Depot while thousands of new pilots are hired or go and work where you can. Another reason ALPA is powerless to stop managements continuing assault on the profession.

I find it amusing that in the past few years, almost every regional airline in the country has at least doubled, even tripled in size and the majors have all shrunk sans JB and LUV. When Go Jets gets a ton of furloughed mainline pilots going there to be street Captains the TSA pilots will go bananas calling them scabs and start denying jumpseats to them. What hypocrisy. Regionals have become what they are on the backs of other companies and the jobs they provide used to belong to the mainline carriers. ALPA has stood there and watched it happen with nary a sound.

But "moral high ground"? I don't think so

A350

 

[fuelflow]

ALPA and "moral high ground" don't belong in the same thought. ALPA has good qualities insofar as medical, safety, and even legal when it comes to defending a pilot wrongly accused.

A lot of this "scab" talk is hype thrown about by people who have been airline pilots for all of about a month and think they are entitled to a quick upgrade and move up the seniority list. I have a news flash for the pilots out there. There is no entitlement in this industry. One day you are sitting pretty and the next you are furloughed because another union pilot has undercut your wages and benefits. Your choice will be to stick with ALPA and work at Home Depot while thousands of new pilots are hired or go and work where you can. Another reason ALPA is powerless to stop managements continuing assault on the profession.

I find it amusing that in the past few years, almost every regional airline in the country has at least doubled, even tripled in size and the majors have all shrunk sans JB and LUV. When GJs gets a ton of furloughed mainline pilots going there to be street Captains the TSA pilots will go bananas calling them scabs and start denying jumpseats to them. What hypocrisy. Regionals have become what they are on the backs of other companies and the jobs they provide used to belong to the mainline carriers. ALPA has stood there and watched it happen with nary a sound.

But "moral high ground"? I don't think so

A350

Well said.
The bottom line is that GJ will be staffed by mostly by furloughed mainline pilots with a good payscale once the contract is negotiated.

 

[turbinewhiner]

How much lower is go jet's pay than tsa?

 

[J32driver]

Nothing changes the fact that HoJets existance is in violation of TSA's ALPA contract. Just waiting for the BIG GIANT STAPLING SOUND.

 

[KingKong2]

Nothing changes the fact that HoJets existance is in violation of TSA's ALPA contract. Just waiting for the BIG GIANT STAPLING SOUND.

Two things:

1) Show me the word for word part of the TSA contact that GJ is violating.

2) Two union carriers can not just be stapled. The merger terms, in the unlikely event ALPA wins an arbitration, need to be negotiated with the offices of the NMB, in conjunction with the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions.

 

[TSA ERJ]

Kong
1. Our interpretations of the wording are pointless. It will come down to who has the best lawyer.

2. Go Jet is not union so I will have no problem seeing them stapled.

And fuel flow, it doesn't matter to me whether GJ is staffed entirely by furloughed mainline pilots. All of the GJ pilots are actively and knowingly undermining another labor group, to both groups detriment. Only management will win on this one.

 

[A350]

TSA ERJ:

GJ pilots may be undermining another labor group, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I have no problem with the fact that the regionals have grown on the backs of the majors. Business is business. Why is it OK for a union carrier to fly 50 jets for a mainline partner and put 50 jets worth of mainline pilots on the street but it isn't OK for you to get your contract undermined by a guy looking to feed his family and pick up the pieces of his shattered career?

You, and ALPA, are asking the mainline pilots to sit back and watch it happen to them for your benefit, but when it was your turn to say "enough is enough" and walk the line, you (as a group) turned your head and let it happen to someone else. Hypocrisy at its finest.

It isn't your fault personally, it is just the way it is right now. And your union is powerless to stop it. But alas you can start spitting on the GJ pilots and calling them names and put their names on a list and start denying them jumpseats. Just remember, what goes around comes around.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

GJ pilots may be undermining another labor group, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Not at all. Mainline pilots negotiated their scope clauses to allow certain flying to be outsourced. If they don't like flying going to the regional pilots, then they have no one to blame but themselves. No one's scope clause has been violated by allowing the regionals to grow.

GJs however, is a direct violation of the TSA scope language. The TSA contract specifically mentions that no alter-ego carrier can be created or controlled by Trans States.

In one case you have the scope clauses being adhered to completely. In the other case you have a scope clause being completely circumvented. No pot calling the kettle black here.

 

[A350]

PCL 128:

No, their scope clauses were wiped out in BK, just like their pensions and their no furlough clause. And it is easy to wipe them out because there are plenty of regional airlines feeding for the new flying.

Go ahead and enforce the scope clause. That way the new larger equipment will go somewhere else.

That is what you want, isn't it?

A350

 

[PCL_128]

PCL 128:

No, their scope clauses were wiped out in BK, just like their pensions and their no furlough clause. And it is easy to wipe them out because there are plenty of regional airlines feeding for the new flying.

Go ahead and enforce the scope clause. That way the new larger equipment will go somewhere else.

That is what you want, isn't it?

A350

There's nothing we can do about the BK laws. They are what they are. They certainly are not fair, but it's what we have to live with.

As for what I want, you have it all wrong. Look at my avatar. I'm against all of this RJ flying going to the regionals. I think these planes belong at mainline. What annoys me is when mainline pilots complain about this outsourcing when it's usually their own scope clauses that allow it. The NWA -9 pilots give us Pinnacle pilots crap all the time about "stealing" their flying. The truth is, we never "stole" anything. They gave it all to us with their scope clause. That's why this situation doesn't at all compare with the BloJets situation. BloJets is circumventing scope, while the regionals like Comair, Pinnacle, and Trans States are just adhering to scope that was negotiated by DAL, NWA, and the APA respectively.

 

[A350]

PCL 128:

Go Jets is circumventing scope at another airline and as a result, TSA pilots could get to fly an airplane that they might never get the chance to fly. But that would mean that they would have to say NO to the new flying/airplanes. Do you ever see that happening? I don't.

You may not like it, but I doubt you will be at your next union meeting telling everyone that you don't want the new flying and they should reject it. You won't make it to the parking lot.

I would think the mainline pilots have a pretty good argument for being a little put off by the turn the industry has taken. Obviously, you disagree.

A350

 

[eastflier]

One thing is for sure they will not be riding in my jumpseat!!!!