getting a 604 or Global type myself

[intooclose]

I am a CRJ captain at a regional and sick of it. I used to do pilot services prior to this regional job in a Challenger(for a very short time, 55 hrs as a FO). Is it worth getting a type on my own in the Challenger and trying to get a 91 job or more pilot services on my own. Do people to down a little at airline guys, I do know the flying is different. Some advice would really help. I would perfer the Atlanta area also.

Thanks,
Captain Never Home

 

[sleepy]

I would say that a type without any actual experience isn't going to mean much. Most of the better corporate operations hire the right person, then train them on the aircraft. You will see some job posting that say so and so type rating required or prefered. It could help in those cases.

Now, if you have already made some connections for your pilot services business, and only need the training, it might be worthwhile. If you live in an area where there are plenty of those two types around to fly contract on. If you take the steps to make your contract flying business a real business, then you could gain some tax advantages in expensing you training costs.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Dont spend that money. I guessing a GLEX rating is about 45K these days..plus expenses for 3+ weeks. You dont want to spend that type of money in hopes of getting some contract work.

I ditto the above on a type without time is pretty useless. Most places dont hire on ratings...It may help, especially some PIC time in type or International experience, but finding the right person is priority as sending them to school is not the breaking factor.

Reality, YES you are a disadvantage having an airline background, but its certainly not a showstopper. Do your best to put a charter or other entry level bizjet job as your last employer. All companies are flooded with airline resumes right now, and they all go to the same file - the garbage.

Get some "other than airline" experience on your resume, hit up friends and contacts, be persistent. Its not the easiest switch usually, but certainly possible and you will like it much more!

Good Luck!

 

[HawkerF/O]

I am a CRJ captain at a regional and sick of it. I used to do pilot services prior to this regional job in a Challenger(for a very short time, 55 hrs as a FO). Is it worth getting a type on my own in the Challenger and trying to get a 91 job or more pilot services on my own. Do people to down a little at airline guys, I do know the flying is different. Some advice would really help. I would perfer the Atlanta area also.

Thanks,
Captain Never Home

Gulfstream 200 has a valid point about the airline resumes going into the trash, but there are plenty of companies that will look at airlines guys, depending on the situation. The companies that have been burned will probably not. What is going to set you apart is the fact that you are not on the street. The fact that you have a job and are wanting to willing leave will help, especially if you talk to them. If they scan your resume and see airline work on there, it may ge tthe garbage without further consideration. If you manage to walk your CV in some place and get face time with someone that fires/hires, you need to explain to him that you are employed and in no danger of getting furloughed. You are wanting to make a change to corporate for whatever reason, just as long as they know you are done with the airlines.

You might consider a CL60 type. Gives you lots more options and it is going to be cheaper than a 604 type. You could do a 600 initial and 601 differences and that would cover all of your bases. There are more CL60s than CL64s out there. There is lots of 600/601 work out there, especially in the Dallas area. And don't take this the worng way, but there are a lot of "low or lower rent" operators getting into aircraft for the 1st time or upgrading to a larger aircraft and they buy 600s or 601-1As because they are so cheap (3M-5.5M), have huge cabins, and a great ramp presence to impress their friends who don't know the difference in a 600 and a 604. Some of these owners are only willing to employ 1 pilot and contract out the Gear/switch/radio monkey. It's cheaper to pay a contract pilot 500-800/day than to hire/train a full time guy. Just something to think about. Not all 600/601-1A operators are like that, but there are plenty that do operate in such a fashion. I've yet to see a 604 operator conducting flight operations in a manner such as that. Good luck.

 

[some_dude]

If you're looking for a full time job, G200 is right on.

If you are thinking about doing contract work, first step is to figure out how much the type rating will cost you, and how many days you'll have to work just to pay that training off.

The contract thing only makes sense if you know someone who will use you consistently. Even then, it's marginal when you consider the cost of training, health insurance, etc.

 

[Spooky 1]

Okay, I don't mean to be contrary, but I do know two guys, no actually three guys who either bought GV or GEX ratings and are working on a full time basis either contracting or with a steady gig. I do think the acceptance curve is quite steep and there could be some significant slow spells until you have enough time and networking to keep the money flowing in. Don't know you of course or what kind of personality that you bring with you, but no risk, no rewards has always served me pretty good in the past.

What ever, good luck.

 

[earhart]

Okay, I don't mean to be contrary, but I do know two guys, no actually three guys who either bought GV or GEX ratings and are working on a full time basis either contracting or with a steady gig. I do think the acceptance curve is quite steep and there could be some significant slow spells until you have enough time and networking to keep the money flowing in. Don't know you of course or what kind of personality that you bring with you, but no risk, no rewards has always served me pretty good in the past.

What ever, good luck.

I don't know any. I don' t mean to be confrontational but to pay for your
types without experience is a BIG waste of money. No experienced 91 op will look at you without time in type- International/Domestic EXPERIENCE; I wish you good luck but try to find an outfit where you can grow. It's tough to find but you'll be happier (and richer) when you find the op for you. Airline experience has always been attractive to my employers- I am sure they are not alone. GOOD LUCK.

 

[psysicx]

I'm confused,Spooky said he knows someone who has done this and earhart says it impossible. What a conundrum.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Okay, I don't mean to be contrary, but I do know two guys, no actually three guys who either bought GV or GEX ratings and are working on a full time basis either contracting or with a steady gig. I do think the acceptance curve is quite steep and there could be some significant slow spells until you have enough time and networking to keep the money flowing in. Don't know you of course or what kind of personality that you bring with you, but no risk, no rewards has always served me pretty good in the past.

What ever, good luck.

I believe it...but....

I doubt these guys were regional pilots who would be spending more than a years salary (40K or so) on a type rating.

This guy is crazy for even considering buying any type ratings. How long to break even? who is going to pay 15K recurrent each year?

Plus he is in Atlanta. I cant imagine there is too much contract need there...not the mecca of corp flying....

Simply put, there is much smarter ways to get the airline stink off of yourself.

 

[HawkerF/O]

There are lots of guys that pay for their own ratings and do it for a living. It's usually someone already typed and looses their job, then the recurrents are on them, but it is done often. Jeff Beck is one fo them. www.gulfstreamcontractpilot.com. He stays very very busy and has a 5 day min. He has been doing this since the early 90's and he is GV typed, so he picked up the cost of that on his own. He is just an example. There is a lot of this going on. Also, some places want time in type, but there are countless FSi and Simuflite right seaters that get offers all the time to seat fill on a trip, and they just have sim time. Lots of those guys get their starts like that. Remember, when dealing with Aviation, not everyone considers safety (time in type) before they think about money (someone to fill a seat). There are plenty of bottom feeding CPs that dont want anyone who can take their job flying on the aircraft he pilots, so he hires some kid for the day that can barely talk on the radio. It's out there, you might not see it, but it is alive and well.

 

[HawkerF/O]

No experienced 91 op will look at you without time in type- International/Domestic EXPERIENCE;

Check that. It should read Professional or respectable, not experienced. Any cheap low rent bottom feeding 91 operator will stick a multi-INST pilot in the right seat as a SOP or if the situation called for it. Seen it 100xs when I was working line in the late 90s in a large Midwest town. I know of a Challenger doing 135 work with a CFI in the right seat and the Capt does not have lots of experience himself. That's right. After several months, they finally sent the F/O to school, a Re-current, not an initial. How safe it that?

1st jet I ever flew was a Challenger, and I only had 3 bounces, 3 ILS and some steep turns. Looking back, I had no business being in that airplane with no school, but at the time, like a lot of other hungry guys, you do what you can to build that multi time, and at $750/day, I was on cloud 9. I can remember thingink how easy that plane was to fly and if the rumors about what corp pilots get paid are true, this is one of the best kept secrets in the world. Oh to be young again.

 

[psysicx]

Does Flightsafety give him a deal on recurrent training?

 

[HawkerF/O]

Does Flightsafety give him a deal on recurrent training?

Give who a deal?

 

[psysicx]

That contract pilot.

 

[sleepy]

You might try getting an instructor job at one of the FSI or Simuflight Training Centers (then they pay to type you). The pay is much higher than what you are making at a regional airline. The hours are no worse. It can lead to a good corporate job or a lot of contract flying.

I disagree that being at an airline will hurt your chances. It did hurt me one bit. The only time that it would be a problem is if you are on furlough from an airline. There are plenty of old-school corporate CPs out there that don't like airline pilots, but a professional will evalulate you and hire you on the merits.

 

[HawkerF/O]

That contract pilot.

I have no idea. I know a lot of guys new to the contract world use Simuflite because it is much cheaper. FSI is nice if you fly 2 aircraft, cause they will let you train on both for the price of 1, the more expensive one if you get a full service contract.

 

[psysicx]

Gotcha isn't there a way to incorporate yourself w/o getting taxed 20%?

 

[HawkerF/O]

Gotcha isn't there a way to incorporate yourself w/o getting taxed 20%?

From what I understand, the way to do that is to start an S-Corp or maybe it is called an C-Corp.. Who knows? I know very little about it, but I think the idea is that you start the C or S Corp then become the only employee of that Corp. Have the company you fly for, we'll call them The ABC Widgets Corp, pay the Corp you set up directly. Then, pay yourself from the Corp. you set up. In the mean time, have your C/S Corp pay for your training, your car lease* (See Below), fuel for your car, your hotels bills during training, maybe your utility bill, the AMEX you give your mistress (did I say that out loud?), etc. You get the idea.

ABC WIDGETS pays YOUR CORP which pays YOU/YOUR BILLS.

That might al be wrong, but that is how it has been explained to me. Good Luck.

As for the car lease, you can have your Corp lease your car, then deduct the cost of the lease from the Corporation's taxes. It used to be, and still might be, that if you bought/leased a large SUV (Surburban, Hummer, ETC) you got a HUGE tax deduction. The deduction is/was triggered by the weight of the SUV (cuts the Japaneese/Korean/ETC automakers out of benefits so you had to buy American), so ask a dealer if you go that route. A nice loophole would be the new Range Rovers. Those are bad dudes, and the lady folk lovvvvvvvve 'em.

 

[Spooky 1]

Okay.....I don't think it would be appropriate to identify these guys other than one of them was a retired USAir guy with a lot of "credentials" before he typed in the GV. One of the others was a 9/11 furloughed CAL guy who actually had the state of NJ pay for his rating under a program for those who lost their jobs via the 9/11 event, so he actually did not write the check himself but the circumstances were effectively the same.

I know a VP Fight Ops for a large management company who would embrace this concept for guys that are coming out of the airlines with significant international experience. This is obviously not for everyone.

Again, no risk, no rewards. This might may or may not be the best road traveled for a pilot who has has spent a significant amount of time in the regional business, but all it takes is one good break to make the difference in a lifetime career.

I don't embrace PFT, but I am not sure why this is different from getting an advanced degree in some particular field. If you think it will enhance your chances, so be it.

 

[mobie]

Buy a Type?

I know one former USAir that bought a GV type and is doing well in SoCal. He did have a lot of contacts, also was a two star in the Navy and that did not hurt Viper either.

It would be a big crap shoot for most.

 

[Spooky 1]

I know one former USAir that bought a GV type and is doing well in SoCal. He did have a lot of contacts, also was a two star in the Navy and that did not hurt Viper either.

It would be a big crap shoot for most.

You obviously know the same guy as I do. He was pretty idle for the fisrt year or so, but then things clicked and from that point on he was pretty sucessful. BTW, this guy is in his sixties today.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

OK, those these guys are obviously worlds apart from the original poster.

 

[Spooky 1]

Probably true, and the lack of international experience for a GEX pilot would be a potential problem for many. On the other hand the Challenger option might not be as significant.

 

[sleepy]

Probably true, and the lack of international experience for a GEX pilot would be a potential problem for many. On the other hand the Challenger option might not be as significant.

I guess he could also take the FSI or Simuflight International Procedures Course, RVSM, AIRINC 424, etc....... Since he would be the FO on the trip it might not matter if he had any actual experience, so long as he could show that he understood what to do.

Don't forget the home office deduction, that is a nice one along with writing-off your new Hummer.

I would not recommend investing this kind of money in this unless you already have contacts in the industry that will assure you that they will use you frequently. Even then it is a big gamble. If you live in Atlanta just forget this plan. There are some Challengers in Atlanta, but I am not aware of any Globals here. There is a guy up in GQO that recently bought a Global. They also have a Lear. They were looking for a pilot last month. The owner owns a bunch of those payday loan / check cashing places.

You will be hard pressed to find any Global or Challenger work in Atlanta. I would suggest a LearJet or Citation type, or Gulfstream if you like the bigger stuff for Atlanta.

 

[intooclose]

Thanks for all the info guys. I worked line service in ATL years ago and the corporate world is what first got me interested in aviation. I am looking to get back. I am not in danger of losing my job. I have about 5000 TT and 1200 jet PIC with little international experience(Canada and Mexico), and BBA in marketing. I think I will just get some face time with what I think are good operations and go from there. I made $74000 last year and would like to stay around that figure, it may be tough in ATL though maybe.

Thanks for any advice
Captain Never Home

 

[Ty Webb]

Simply put, there is much smarter ways to get the airline stink off of yourself.

I have to laugh . . . . I had the opposite problem- trying to get the "corporate stink" off of myself to get my airline job.

G200, you really come off as a condescending pr!ck. I would take an airline schedule, pay and benefits over 98% of the corporate jobs out there, and if the other 2% involved flying with you, well, then I guess I would have to pass on them all.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I have to laugh . . . . I had the opposite problem- trying to get the "corporate stink" off of myself to get my airline job.

G200, you really come off as a condescending pr!ck. I would take an airline schedule, pay and benefits over 98% of the corporate jobs out there, and if the other 2% involved flying with you, well, then I guess I would have to pass on them all.

Ty, you should have PM'd G200 with that comment. G200 was out of line with his comment and he knows that and by you validating it with a reply, you are playing right into his hand. Believe me, I have been there myself, and I am learning that there are just some people who have no class. Typically, they are not respected at work and have no control over other aspects of thier lives, so they get on here and show their AS$. No matter what you do, you're simply wasting your time. I'd $uck it up and move on.

 

[Ty Webb]

Typically, they get on here and show their AS$. . . . .No matter what you do, you're simply wasting your time. I'd $uck it up and move on.

Oh, once in a while, it's fun to dish out a well-deserved comeuppance.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Oh, once in a while, it's fun to dish out a well-deserved comeuppance.

If there is anyone that can appreciate that, it's me. My favorite movie is The Count of Monte Christo. Why, you ask? Cause if you shafted this guy he didn't forget, and if you had it coming, he made sure you got your up and commings, and I like that. It wasn't about revenge or even principle, it was about the reckoning of the whole situation. Good stuff, but still, I'd $uck it up and move on.

 

[Ty Webb]

If there is anyone that can appreciate that, it's me. My favorite movie is The Count of Monte Christo.

Given his choice of avatars, I think G200 would likely appreciate any movie that involved false imprisonment. Maybe he's getting tired of spending his overnights in Teterboro and would rather stay in the Honeymoon Suite on Riker's.