Get ASA/XJT Combined Seniority List

[buscap]

Well, at least neither pilot group as represented on this message board can claim the class-act high ground.

My stance is that the aquisition would be a good thing for all three pilot groups, the Express contract should not be circumnavigated, but an ASA/Express merger is better than completely killing the deal. Unfortunately, any willingness to bend on the three-way will be exploited. It is enforceable only if the Express pilots are willing to kill the deal over it and live with the ramifications, be they good or bad.

So that's the choice the Express pilots must make. No matter which one is made, the ASA pilots should offer support, for there's not much else we can do anyway. It's the Express contract which we are being used to circumnavigate and it is the Express pilot's decision to make, as to what to do about it.

To make a bunch of noise about whom is aquiring whom and whose contract is better and who has taken what concessions and blah blah blah; all that just makes us at ASA sound like a bunch of opportunistic idiots.

How would the pilots at ASA feel if it was the scope clause of our contract was being circumnavigated?

And to the pilots of Express on this board I would say, get over yourselves a bit. Give this deal serious consideration-three way and two way. Skywest is a good place to be. There has been some whipsaw, but I don't want to think about where we would be without Skywest, aka Comair?

Jerry is known as a shrewed businessmen and I believe the rep is well and proudly earned, but he is not out to ruin anyone. I submit that the pilots of Transtates, Mesa and Comair would most likely love to be working for Jerry.

 

[ASA Captain]

Explaining "relative seniority" to you clowns is like trying to explain indicated airspeed to a private pilot groundschool.

Classic!!

Obviously, you might need an explanation of relative seniority. It is not a percentage of the guys on the list. That is one way to discuss it. So is date of hire. But, much like if I have money invested in Google and Mesa and lose 2% on both, the impact is not the same. What is important in discussing relative seniority is not only the percentage but also the numerical rank on the list of pilots. Pretending that percentage is the only way to look at seniority is ignorant. When was the last time anyone upgraded because the percentage came down to your relative seniority. BS. We all know that the number on the list means everything, not percent.

Carry on.

 

[gator_hater]

I was hired in '04, the same date an xjt guy was hired over there. We have the exact same seniority number at our respective airline. If we merge doh, guess what, we are right beside each other!!!! That's where we should be!!! He shouldn't be 500 numbers ahead of me, we were hired on the same freakin day!!!! You're out of your freakin mind if you think that's fair!! Take your relative senority and shove it. Sorry if you don't like it, noone over here cares.

For fun let's just say that you guys are #800 on the list. That puts the xjet guy at a percentage of 29.6% and you at a percentage of 48.4% . You are a reserve captain and he holds a line in his base of choice. He made a better career choice at the time, whether he knew it or not. His QOL should not take a dive or yours should not get a windfall just because his airline had more attrition than yours.

Ask the DAL guy and Eastern guy who got hired on the same day in 1979 if it is fair that the DAL guy is retiring as a 777 capt and the Eastern guy is retiring as a 737 capt at Airtran. Sometimes life ain't fair, you better get used to it. A percentage based combination is the only thing that is fair.

 

[Nevets]

Comair once had the best contract in the industry too. Hmmm.

Those were different times. Comair is wholly owned as well.

Well, at least neither pilot group as represented on this message board can claim the class-act high ground.

My stance is that the aquisition would be a good thing for all three pilot groups, the Express contract should not be circumnavigated, but an ASA/Express merger is better than completely killing the deal. Unfortunately, any willingness to bend on the three-way will be exploited. It is enforceable only if the Express pilots are willing to kill the deal over it and live with the ramifications, be they good or bad.

So that's the choice the Express pilots must make. No matter which one is made, the ASA pilots should offer support, for there's not much else we can do anyway. It's the Express contract which we are being used to circumnavigate and it is the Express pilot's decision to make, as to what to do about it.

To make a bunch of noise about whom is aquiring whom and whose contract is better and who has taken what concessions and blah blah blah; all that just makes us at ASA sound like a bunch of opportunistic idiots.

How would the pilots at ASA feel if it was the scope clause of our contract was being circumnavigated?

And to the pilots of Express on this board I would say, get over yourselves a bit. Give this deal serious consideration-three way and two way. Skywest is a good place to be. There has been some whipsaw, but I don't want to think about where we would be without Skywest, aka Comair?

Jerry is known as a shrewed businessmen and I believe the rep is well and proudly earned, but he is not out to ruin anyone. I submit that the pilots of Transtates, Mesa and Comair would most likely love to be working for Jerry.

I personally behemently disagree with you that an ASA/XJT merger is better than killing the deal. I am willing deal with the ramifications of killing the deal. CAL or someone else will find the same exact same value in us that the "shrewd" people at Inc have. Like I've said, we didn't ask for someone to come buy us or save us. It was Inc who seems like they desperately want to get in bed with CAL for the "incumbency" and possibility of larger aircraft. Honestly, I think this deal is done whatever happens of all this. Which takes away our having to answer the question on how hard we should push to enforce our contract. Anyways, we have nothing to lose either way. I rather not work for shrewd business people who disregard others in their business dealings while telling us with a smile that we should see them as our "life boat" and at the same time ask us to take 16% concessions to be cost competitive with Skywest pilots. All because he wants to keep separate lists to whipsaw us with. With JO and HK, at least they are up front with screwing you. Its so disingenuous its disgusting.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

I can't believe you guys, overlooking some important issues here:
Which group wears more cowboy boots in the cockpit?

 

[buscap]

Those were different times. Comair is wholly owned as well.



I personally behemently disagree with you that an ASA/XJT merger is better than killing the deal. I am willing deal with the ramifications of killing the deal. CAL or someone else will find the same exact same value in us that the "shrewd" people at Inc have. Like I've said, we didn't ask for someone to come buy us or save us. It was Inc who seems like they desperately want to get in bed with CAL for the "incumbency" and possibility of larger aircraft. Honestly, I think this deal is done whatever happens of all this. Which takes away our having to answer the question on how hard we should push to enforce our contract. Anyways, we have nothing to lose either way. I rather not work for shrewd business people who disregard others in their business dealings while telling us with a smile that we should see them as our "life boat" and at the same time ask us to take 16% concessions to be cost competitive with Skywest pilots. All because he wants to keep separate lists to whipsaw us with. With JO and HK, at least they are up front with screwing you. Its so disingenuous its disgusting.

I completely support your right and reasons for feeling the way you do. It's your contract.

Make sure your MEC knows how you feel.

 

[cybourg10]

I personally behemently disagree with you that an ASA/XJT merger is better than killing the deal. I am willing deal with the ramifications of killing the deal. CAL or someone else will find the same exact same value in us that the "shrewd" people at Inc have. Like I've said, we didn't ask for someone to come buy us or save us. It was Inc who seems like they desperately want to get in bed with CAL for the "incumbency" and possibility of larger aircraft. Honestly, I think this deal is done whatever happens of all this. Which takes away our having to answer the question on how hard we should push to enforce our contract. Anyways, we have nothing to lose either way. I rather not work for shrewd business people who disregard others in their business dealings while telling us with a smile that we should see them as our "life boat" and at the same time ask us to take 16% concessions to be cost competitive with Skywest pilots. All because he wants to keep separate lists to whipsaw us with. With JO and HK, at least they are up front with screwing you. Its so disingenuous its disgusting.

It is easy to say that on an internet message board but very few people follow through with that type of thinking when their job is on the line. What will you do if the arbitrator says that by ASA being a holding company and the official purchaser of XJT, SkyWest Inc is not liable for XJT scope requirements? Will you quit? Would you rather be unemployed without jobless benefits than work for the new ASA? Just curious. My first choice is to merge all three groups but if we can't get that it seems like economic reality tells us that merging with ASA is still a good thing. I commend you for standing up for what you believe is right but I disagree that it should be an all of nothing deal.

 

[Nevets]

It is easy to say that on an internet message board but very few people follow through with that type of thinking when their job is on the line. What will you do if the arbitrator says that by ASA being a holding company and the official purchaser of XJT, SkyWest Inc is not liable for XJT scope requirements? Will you quit? Would you rather be unemployed without jobless benefits than work for the new ASA? Just curious. My first choice is to merge all three groups but if we can't get that it seems like economic reality tells us that merging with ASA is still a good thing. I commend you for standing up for what you believe is right but I disagree that it should be an all of nothing deal.

The MEC was confronted with this two years ago. And we told JA one list or no deal. Here, they may have found a loophole. But I will stand my ground on one list even if the deal is broken off like it was two years ago and deal with it like we did two years ago rather than not do anything just because we think it might brake the deal. If we cannot get one list I rather walk away again. If we cannot, at least we stood our ground and will deal with it in contract negotiations (which is probably exactly what JA wants to extract concessions). I honestly wish it was an all or nothing deal but I don't think SKW is pulling out of this one. SKW has put a lot of time and energy into this now for over two years. They want us. We didn't go looking for them.

 

[cybourg10]

The MEC was confronted with this two years ago. And we told JA one list or no deal. Here, they may have found a loophole. But I will stand my ground on one list even if the deal is broken off like it was two years ago and deal with it like we did two years ago rather than not do anything just because we think it might brake the deal. If we cannot get one list I rather walk away again. If we cannot, at least we stood our ground and will deal with it in contract negotiations (which is probably exactly what JA wants to extract concessions). I honestly wish it was an all or nothing deal but I don't think SKW is pulling out of this one. SKW has put a lot of time and energy into this now for over two years. They want us. We didn't go looking for them.

Well "we" can't choose to walk away again. It was SkyWest who walked away in 2008. The pilots do not get to control who runs the company. Sometimes I think we get too big headed into thinking we are the BOD. I agree with you that we should fight for the 3 way merger but if it falls through then shame on us for not having better language in our contract. We still have more to gain merging with ASA on an economic and QOL level than staying just XJT and you can not rationally argue that. We can not walk away from a deal that is out of our control. We as employees do not get a say in whether these transactions go through or not. If you want to be the decider go get an MBA and get promoted. I know you wish it wasn't so but reality sucks sometimes. I honestly don't believe that you would rather be going through bankruptcy proceedings than JCBA talks despite your current frustration with the deal.

 

[Nevets]

Well "we" can't choose to walk away again. It was SkyWest who walked away in 2008. The pilots do not get to control who runs the company. Sometimes I think we get too big headed into thinking we are the BOD. I agree with you that we should fight for the 3 way merger but if it falls through then shame on us for not having better language in our contract. We still have more to gain merging with ASA on an economic and QOL level than staying just XJT and you can not rationally argue that. We can not walk away from a deal that is out of our control. We as employees do not get a say in whether these transactions go through or not. If you want to be the decider go get an MBA and get promoted. I know you wish it wasn't so but reality sucks sometimes. I honestly don't believe that you would rather be going through bankruptcy proceedings than JCBA talks despite your current frustration with the deal.

I'll be honest and say that I'm not married to this company, this career, or even this profession. I'll be fine no matter what happens. Which is why I've said that obviously I only speak for myself here.

I didn't say we had a choice. I said I would rather walk away if we cant get one list. And I said that this is done deal regardless. Many people say that if we force one list, SKW backs out of the deal. I'm not convinced that is the case but if it is, GREAT! I also don't think we will be going bankrupt. Just as we are a good value to SKW, we would bring good value to anyone else. Honestly, I would rather be part of one list at TSA holdings then to be part of two list at SKW holdings. No more whipsaw from regional management against their own employees. You shouldn't make decisions solely out of fear.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Those were different times. Comair is wholly owned as well.

Times are no different. Unless you have the market cornered, it's never a good idea to price yourself out of the game. Even if you succeed in a 3 way, there will still be whipsaw against you from Trans States, Go Jets, Mesa, and whatever other regional they choose to invent. The mainline carriers will continue to put RFPs for their flying and choose the lowest bidder. It's noble to beat your chest and call for sticking it up SkyWest's posterior, and you may succeed in the short run, but in the long run, you will probably end up like Comair. The ASA pilots already learned that lesson, and they will probably not fall on their swords with you, so good luck.

 

[Nevets]

Times are no different. Unless you have the market cornered, it's never a good idea to price yourself out of the game. Even if you succeed in a 3 way, there will still be whipsaw against you from Trans States, Go Jets, Mesa, and whatever other regional they choose to invent. The mainline carriers will continue to put RFPs for their flying and choose the lowest bidder. It's noble to beat your chest and call for sticking it up SkyWest's posterior, and you may succeed in the short run, but in the long run, you will probably end up like Comair. The ASA pilots already learned that lesson, and they will probably not fall on their swords with you, so good luck.

Not asking for you to fall on your sword. Frankly, this is between XJT pilots and Inc management. It is our contract your management has decided to violate rather than to work with us. Whatever comes of it, ASA and SKW pilots are along for the ride if XJT is successful or not.

I get the whole pricing yourself out. But we are paid so meagerly for what we do, its not up to us anymore to remain cost competitive. If managment is so good and smart, they must find other ways to save money other than off the backs of pilots. XJT has one of the best regional contracts and yet has one of the lowest casm. There is no need for the pilots to take any concessions, on the contrary. Just look at SWA as a perfect example of best compensated pilots and being cost competitive enough to be successful. And I understand that mainline management will whipsaw us against others. But lets not let our own management to double down on that whipsaw. Two wrongs don't make anything right.

 

[cybourg10]

Not asking for you to fall on your sword. Frankly, this is between XJT pilots and Inc management. It is our contract your management has decided to violate rather than to work with us. Whatever comes of it, ASA and SKW pilots are along for the ride if XJT is successful or not.

I get the whole pricing yourself out. But we are paid so meagerly for what we do, its not up to us anymore to remain cost competitive. If managment is so good and smart, they must find other ways to save money other than off the backs of pilots. XJT has one of the best regional contracts and yet has one of the lowest casm. There is no need for the pilots to take any concessions, on the contrary. Just look at SWA as a perfect example of best compensated pilots and being cost competitive enough to be successful. And I understand that mainline management will whipsaw us against others. But lets not let our own management to double down on that whipsaw. Two wrongs don't make anything right.

Stop calling it a violation of our contract. Stop calling it a wrong. You are not a lawyer. You don't know what is a violation and what is not. We need to stop acting like a child that got there feelings hurt and start to realize the business and legal reality of this. If the arbitrator says it is a violation than we can call it that, if they say what Inc did was legal than you have to accept that. I am curious as to why you think you know what is legally right and wrong here. Stop talking about our contract like it is comparable to the former AirWisc or ACA contracts. Who cares about our low CASM if our RASM is even lower. Don't be a part of the management and corporations are evil crowd. If our contract is so great why does Inc and their lawyers think they got around it? Our failing company just got bought and you want to brag about our low CASM and great contract? I am with you that I hope we get merged into three lists but lets not run our mouth about how great we are. Let the lawyers figure out what is a violation and what is not, you can not go into with your mind made up or else no one will take you seriously.

 

[Nevets]

Stop calling it a violation of our contract. Stop calling it a wrong. You are not a lawyer. You don't know what is a violation and what is not. We need to stop acting like a child that got there feelings hurt and start to realize the business and legal reality of this. If the arbitrator says it is a violation than we can call it that, if they say what Inc did was legal than you have to accept that. I am curious as to why you think you know what is legally right and wrong here. Stop talking about our contract like it is comparable to the former AirWisc or ACA contracts. Who cares about our low CASM if our RASM is even lower. Don't be a part of the management and corporations are evil crowd. If our contract is so great why does Inc and their lawyers think they got around it? Our failing company just got bought and you want to brag about our low CASM and great contract? I am with you that I hope we get merged into three lists but lets not run our mouth about how great we are. Let the lawyers figure out what is a violation and what is not, you can not go into with your mind made up or else no one will take you seriously.

I've made it clear and have said it many times, I speak only for myself. I'm not afraid that if we push this issue that SKW may pull out of the deal. I personally feel that it doesn't matter what we do. SKW is buying us. And if that means an arbitrator or judge decides that its all legal, I'll accept that as well and move on to the next battle. But that does not make it right. It is clear what SKW is trying to do. The intent of our contract is also clear. It was clearly written to prevent this exact thing. As for our rasm being low, you can thank SKW for their helping CAL in whispsawing us. We were forced to sign their cpa with cal with the low rates that SKW used in the assumption we would take a 16% pay cut in order to be in parity with SKW pilots. What SKW has done may be legal but it certainly is not right. Especially when BR says on his conference call that they want to treat us with dignity and respect. If he was being genuine, he would start by abiding by our contract. You can go ahead and sell yourself short but I wont no matter how much you think our company is failing. The fact of the matter is that we are valuable enough to SKW for them to go through all this trouble. We will be valuable to others as well. Its not the end of the world if they don't buy us.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Not asking for you to fall on your sword. Frankly, this is between XJT pilots and Inc management. It is our contract your management has decided to violate rather than to work with us. Whatever comes of it, ASA and SKW pilots are along for the ride if XJT is successful or not.

I get the whole pricing yourself out. But we are paid so meagerly for what we do, its not up to us anymore to remain cost competitive. If managment is so good and smart, they must find other ways to save money other than off the backs of pilots. XJT has one of the best regional contracts and yet has one of the lowest casm. There is no need for the pilots to take any concessions, on the contrary. Just look at SWA as a perfect example of best compensated pilots and being cost competitive enough to be successful. And I understand that mainline management will whipsaw us against others. But lets not let our own management to double down on that whipsaw. Two wrongs don't make anything right.

I don't work for ASA or SkyWest, so as I said before, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just trying to offer you some insight into how SkyWest does business. Because the road you are campaigning for your pilot group to take is a dead end. Piss Jerry off, and you will see what you get. Work with him, and your company will prosper more than you could imagine. ASA was a piece of garbage until SW bought them. Now look, they're actually a respectable airline, and still have one of the best contracts in the regionals.

You need more leaders like cybourg and less than Nevets if you are going to survive in the SkyWest family. Cool heads will prevail. I'm just saying.