JumpersAway
Cruise Bores Me.......
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I think what my boy Coop is trying to say, is that chick in your avatar could birth twins, sideways, at the same time, with those hips............
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I think what my boy Coop is trying to say, is that chick in your avatar could birth twins, sideways, at the same time, with those hips............
Yea, reps are always on the up and up, never have any agenda. Besides, it's pretty well known that Horizon has about the best contract out there.
Speedtape
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Well, maybe on paper. Where are their 700's going?
Speedtape
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What are your other options? Really!
Kinda sucks really. ASA pilots have only an upside if the deal goes through. You can't blame the XJT guys for feeling aprehensive because any JCBA is most likely going to be a step backwards for us. Fences will be built to protect us all as far as aircraft and bases, etc... But, in my opinion, the XJT pilots will suffer in comparison to our current contract. Our scope language has caused SKW Inc. to come to the table to negotiate stronger language in regards to protections against the whipsaw which will benefit ASA pilots. INC. has showed a willingness to give more on other aspects of protection for us at XJT which, again, will benefit the ASA pilot group. But, in the end, if this deal goes through the XJT pilots will lose a lot from what we have now. You, as an ASA pilot can say "What are your options?". The ASA pilot group will see a pay raise as a result of this merger. The ASA pilot group will have better protections against the whole whipsaw thing. Hopefully we will be able to get rid of PBS, which would also be a benefit. But, in the end the XJT pilot group will see lower pay rates, lower quality of life and a whole litany of concessions just to stay employed with a stable company. I admit our company is not in the best condition going forward and I'm not one to say "burn it down". But, from what I have come to learn in the last couple days, we will take a hit and the ASA group will benefit from that. By no means am I trying to pit one group against the other. I want us to move forward as one strong unified pilot group. But, don't go spout off saying "What are your options?". We are bringing a lot to you. The only thing you are bringing to us is stability. That is all. Nothing more. Everything else is a negative.
Hypocrite. Your entire post was us vs them. Don't start saying garbage like this. In all likelihood, XJT would enter bankruptcy (if your current management stays put) and then your contract gets gutted. Stability is one asset you can neither negotiate for or demand. By your very post, SkyWest Inc offers something we could not obtain on our own.
Before you start down the unity road, you need to get your emotions in line and look towards the big picture. ASA pilots will be just fine without XJT. How will XJT fare without Inc merging the two?
Sidenote:
PBS probably isn't going away. The company has too much time and money invested in this thing just to give it away. It would cost dearly in a JCBA. Point here: quit trashing what our guys worked a long time and see how this plays out. This system is nothing like what CAL has so quit basing all your perspective on PBS so narrowly.
airtime42
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I don't agree with any of your post. Your contract isn't any better than ours for sure. Our profit sharing checks we get every quarter easily make up the difference in our pay rates. And that doesn't even take into account our rigs. August alone I credited 104 and blocked a 64, that is 40 hrs of soft pay. Heck that really beats the hell out of an extra $4 an hour.
79%N1
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Why? I want PBS, as do many others. PBS is simply a better bidding system. You guys know NOTHING about it! It is superior to line bidding. Will there be growing pains with it? Sure. Will some people mess it up? Sure. Will you not always get what you want? Absolutely. But, neither do you in line bidding. I line bidding what if you really need one certain day off one week but a different one the next? Line bidding hardly ever allows for this kind of thing. PBS does. You can set far more parameters to building your schedule than selecting a line that is pre-built for you. I have no idea why the fear toward bidding in deciding to go forward. You guys may have nothing left to bid for soon, or at least a lot less!
JumpersAway
Cruise Bores Me.......
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ASA pilots stand to gain alot through this???? Really?!??!!!??!? No matter how you integrate the lists, ASA pilots are going to get take a bath. We're outnumbered by a more senior pilot group. Our pay is fine, and so is our QOL, less some minor issues. Don't go waving your finger in my face talking about how great you're going to make my life...............
79%N1
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AMEN!!
While we're at it, let ASA pilots vote on if they want to merge. Would love to see the results....
The arrogance is incredible.....Our great contract, our better QOL, etc....XJ guys no NOTHING about ASA, our paycheck, our QOL or our corporate climate with Skywest. But, they act like they do.
Oakum_Boy
supercalifragilistic
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I hope this thing gets killed quickly. CAL/UAL look like they're standing pretty firm on scope which doesn't serve our interests taking on a CAL/UAL only feeder. Plus, the sheer delusion of one big happy SLI with a non-union separate entity is just mind boggling.
And thinking that ASA pilots will benefit and XJTs' will suffer? This smells of a bunch of rats too stupid to jump of a sinking ship.
""But we HAD the best contract in the industry!!" Uh, that was before it was dismantled. Seems some of you guys need to wake up to reality. I think we could use some of your thinking over here, but not at the expense of unity. Silly to think that this would go smoothly.
And thinking that ASA pilots will benefit and XJTs' will suffer? This smells of a bunch of rats too stupid to jump of a sinking ship.
""But we HAD the best contract in the industry!!" Uh, that was before it was dismantled. Seems some of you guys need to wake up to reality. I think we could use some of your thinking over here, but not at the expense of unity. Silly to think that this would go smoothly.
IF so, where has that put you over the last 2 years. 200 + on the street. Loosing money every quarter.
Look at history and learn. CMR, as great of an airline it has been, had an industry leading contract also. What do they have now?
Maybe the trick to winning a marathon, and not a race, is to be in second place instead of King of The Hill.
As for JA. We have been throught 4 management teams at ASA. JA has been the most professional to work with.
And if you think JA was kidding about what he told your MEC last Friday in LAS, he wasn't. If the Xjet guys want to tank this deal then push the single list. That will leave you right where you are at.......for now.
What ever you choose, good luck.
FightingIrish
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Initially, I was excited about this merger. Now after hearing from the XJT pilots, I'm not so sure this merger is a good idea. I don't want 2000+ pissed off pilots to come here and pollute the water.
If you don't like Jerry and Skywest, then I think you should go ahead and call his bluff. Do what you think is best. But don't come here with an attitude of superiority and bitterness. We don't want that.
If you don't like Jerry and Skywest, then I think you should go ahead and call his bluff. Do what you think is best. But don't come here with an attitude of superiority and bitterness. We don't want that.
I hear what you guys are saying. I do not like it at all how some of the other XJT guys come across on these boards but I understand what their plight is.
I am on reserve here at XJT. When you throw in the time I was at ACA I have been on reserve for a total of approx. 80 months. I did however get to enjoy the benefits of a hard line for about 1.5 years here at XJT as an FO. I completely understand that PBS would probably be a great improvement for you guys at ASA and Skywest based on the system you HAD been working under. Not being a line holder here at XJT for so long, it would probably be an improvement for me too. It would more efficiently cover the flying by building more lines and requiring less reserve staffing.
BUT...You have to understand why the line holders (90%) here at XJT would not want to change the current system they work under.
As far as the pairing building goes. The XJT scheduling committee had a few guys trained and along with the company built the pairings.
Then the scheduling committee (EWR, IAH, CLE, ORD reps, along with the scheduling committee chairman) would sit down and build the lines. They do have parameters to comply with but we are making our lines with the pilots needs in mind. e.g. EWR has a lot of commuters so they try to build lots of commutable type of line there, etc.
During the first week of the month we bid for next month. Lots of us have 3 to 4 weeks of vacation. That means every 3rd to 4th month we are bidding on a vacation month and can get anywhere from 7-21 days off in a row and still get our guarantee. PBS would end that little nugget. (Note: I do not benefit from the vacation clause because I am on reserve)
After the lines are awarded, we have a 24 hour line improvement window (ILW).
During those 1.5 years I held a line I was NEVER able to NOT get a specific day off.
The line improvement window starts at 900 pm a few days after schedules are awarded. At 2100 during the ILIW it becomes like stock exchange floor on the NYSE. All hell breaks loose and you can choose from HUNDREDS of other pairings that remain in open time. It is contractual to have a certain amount of open time for this.
People are trading 4 days for day trips.
Crappy 4 days for highly efficeint 3 days.
Maybe back to back pairings for on larger one.
Trading trips around to get weekends off.
The trades are all done instantaneously on the web. The faster you are at computing 30/7 issues that more likely you are to get that 9 hour day trip that are very frequent here to fit in during the week.
You can call scheduling to do this over the phone but forget about it during the first few hours because everything it just too fluid. Around 11:30pm things start to die down to a more reasonable level. That is when you go to bed and then wake up in the morning to see if you would like to make any final tweaks to your schedule.
Once the window closes, the Phase 2 bidding starts. There you bid on a relief line (Build up) or a rsv line. The relief lines are blank and will be built by the scheduling committee and the company. They will use the pairings that are left in opentime after the line improvement window. Generally you can expect about 14 days off on average with one of these. If you cannot hold one of those it will be reserve for you. Reserve lines are built just like regular lines but with only 11 or 12 days off. There will be chunks of days on and days off and you can bid on your days off AND your call out time. Each line has a specific "call out time." There are R1, R2, R3, R4 lines. Each base has slightly different times but for EWR they are
R1 300am
R2 700am
R3 900am
R4 1200pm
I generally do R4 which means I am not become phone liable until 1200 every day with the earliest showtime starting at 1400.
After the secondary bid is complete then the line improvement window opens again permanently for the next month. Anyone with a relief line can now get in there and make their schedule better and do all the above things to make their line just perfect.
What a lot of people here are worried about it losing that almost complete control over their schedules and the additional days off over their vacations. It would be a very large quality of life concession.
As far as the rest of the merger. We are not going bankrupt ANYTIME soon. I actually think the deal should not go through period . Then when CAL/UA tighten scope and MAYBE eventually over the next decade or so get the regional flying back in house as these CPA’s expire. Gives those of us that want to move on a light at the end of the tunnel. I have lost my job once (ACA/Indy) and life went on. Even if Expressjet were to go out of business tomorrow I am not going to have a cow over it.
Skywest needs to grow by consolidation. Republic and Pinnacle have done it because they know things are about to get tough. Especially with the fact that scope will most likely NOT be relaxed with the new UA CAL.
If they want to grow in this fashion they need to intergrade all of us just like Republic and Pinnacle are doing. Skywest needs to either get on the boat or they will be left behind. Pretty simple
FightingIrish
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detwilers, I understand your concerns. 2 points however:
1. You worked for 2 regionals with very good contracts. These 2 regionals also had a hard time competing with the other regionals. ACA lost their United flying because of their cost structure. XJT has been under similar pressure.
2. The PBS that ASA has will easily allow pilots to get 21 days off while getting paid guarantee. Some will hold more than 21 days off and do this. The key is learning the system.
1. You worked for 2 regionals with very good contracts. These 2 regionals also had a hard time competing with the other regionals. ACA lost their United flying because of their cost structure. XJT has been under similar pressure.
2. The PBS that ASA has will easily allow pilots to get 21 days off while getting paid guarantee. Some will hold more than 21 days off and do this. The key is learning the system.
1. True. That is why we need more consolidation for 2 reasons. Economies of scale and more bargaining power due to less competition. So SLI is imperative to 74% percent of us here at the last polling with 14% undecided.
2. I understand and have always been open to learn more about PBS. But it is a concession. The way I look at it. If we could split the money saved then I am for it. e.g the pilot budget is 100 million for the month. We as pilots see 80 million. 20 million goes out the window. This could be a result of inefficiencies the company has to pay for that we as pilots do not get to see in the form of a pay check. So let’s say we get PBS with pay raises. Now the budget is 92 million a month and the pilots see 88 million in their paychecks. Sounds like a win win if it is structured probably. The problem is getting everyone on board and assuring them they will still truely have the ability to have control their schedules.
It's kind of like the Southwest airlines deal. Why taxi a million miles an hour if you get paid by the hour? Because it saves the company BIG money and they pass those savings on to the pilots based parameters in their contract. i.e the more efficient they are are the more they get paid.
As far as the 21 days off thing. That was 21 days off in a row as a result of your vacation. Generally a line holder will have 1 four day left for the month netting him 26 to 27 days off for the month.
I never made any assumptions. I am just trying to give the full picture because every airline does things differently. ACA was a good company with a good contract but they did not have the scheduling flexability that we have here at XJT. The quilty of life improvement I gained when I went from ACA to XJT where huge (and so was the paycut!). After working under a great contract but restrictive schedulign system and then a good one with complete control over my quality of life, I couldn't put a dollar amount on that. The quilty of life improvements I gained when I went from ACA to XJT where huge.
Do I think that can be done with PBS? Yes, with the right contract language I think it could be done so that everyone comes out ahead.
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