G2 in HOU / Aircraft Down in Houston / Gulfstream crashes @ KHOU

[Intreped1]

91k can't come soon enough.

 

[TimsKeeper]

Hey Jack,

I have no experience or knowledge of the GIV...just curious what the reason is for the FD to dissapear.

In a plane that sophisticated there is obviously a good reason, I just don't know what it is.

Thanks

 

[100LL... Again!]

This has got to be one the worst years for avation in recent history.

 

[FSB99]

interesting... guess he was going to pick up George the First.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Hey Jack,

I have no experience or knowledge of the GIV...just curious what the reason is for the FD to dissapear.

In a plane that sophisticated there is obviously a good reason, I just don't know what it is.

I don't know either. All I know is that above 1,200-1,500 agl the flight director can only receive information from one air data computer and one nav source. You'd have to ask the engineers at Honeywell or maybe GVFlyer has a good reason. (I hope you didn't just expose a weakness of the Gulfstream product.)

 

[boxjockey]

Pretty sure I was on the radio at the same time. We were going in to IAH from SLW. The ILS was out of service at HOU this morning. I heard appch clear some kind of GA jet for the VOR appch. Wx was terrible this morning, with vis 1/16th at IAH.


box

 

[2000flyer]

what a tragedy...does that gulfstream model have the coupled flight directors? i know it is usually hardball...right?

i heard a rumor that in the GIV, the flight directors on the non flying pilot side disappear after about 1500' ? is this pretty standard in corporate a/c? or is it a cheaper option?

I can't speak for the Gulfstream, but on the Falcon 2000, 2000EX and Citation Ultra, the only way the command bars will disappear if if they were intentionally deselected or there was an internal failure. They don't just disappear uncommanded.

2000Flyer

 

[2000flyer]

************************************************************
NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************************

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

November 22, 2004

************************************************************
NTSB LAUNCHES TEAM TO INVESTIGATE GULFSTREAM PLANE CRASH IN
TEXAS

************************************************************

The National Transportation Safety Board has launched a Go-
Team to investigate the crash of a Gulfstream near the Hobby
Airport in Houston, Texas.

About 6:15 a.m. CST, today a G-II, (N85VT) with 3 persons
aboard, reportedly clipped a light pole before crashing in a
nearby field. All on board were fatally injured.

Frank Hilldrup is the Investigator-in-Charge of the NTSB
team of 10. NTSB Vice Chairman Mark Rosenker will accompany
the team and serve as principal spokesperson for the on-
scene investigation. Lauren Peduzzi is the NTSB press
officer traveling with the team.

Information regarding the investigation will be released
from the accident scene in Houston, Texas.

NTSB on-scene Media Contact: Lauren Peduzzi, (202) 557-1350

 

[starchkr]

Alright, now the news says it was a G-III...was it a 2 or 3, anyone know?

 

[rvsm410]

Maybe

Its possible he did not reset the altimeter to the local pressure, or the wrong ILS freq was being used...there are lots of things that should have had him higher...but the WX was reporting a broken ceiling of 100' mayb he was searching for the runway lights and got to low while looking?

you can see by the above mentioned TAFS and Metars that the weather was improving later in the morning, thus the traffic/news helo in the air over the crash site.....to bad 135 ops dont "require Dispatchers" its "possible" a dispatcher could have prevented this accident and not allowed the crew to go to IAH in the first place......

God Bless them and there Families.....as usualy we should really allow the investigators tell us what happened.....

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

Brilliant news reporting....

CNN: "the jet was apparently too low when it crashed"

DUH!

 

[FracCapt]

91k can't come soon enough.

What exactly do you think 91k would have done in this case? Charter flight...not fractional. 91k only pertains to fractionals.

 

[sidesaddle]

Rest in Peace

Alright, now the news says it was a G-III...was it a 2 or 3, anyone know?

The registration says it was a G1159A which is a GIII and the serial #449 confirms this. This plane was with Buisness Jet Center at Dallas Love (their 135 certificate is in Tulsa).
May the crew Rest in Peace, thoughts and prayers to the families, and may the rest of us be a little more thankful this Thanksgiving.

 

[Bandit60]

Its possible he did not reset the altimeter to the local pressure, or the wrong ILS freq was being used...there are lots of things that should have had him higher...but the WX was reporting a broken ceiling of 100' mayb he was searching for the runway lights and got to low while looking?

you can see by the above mentioned TAFS and Metars that the weather was improving later in the morning, thus the traffic/news helo in the air over the crash site.....to bad 135 ops dont "require Dispatchers" its "possible" a dispatcher could have prevented this accident and not allowed the crew to go to IAH in the first place......

God Bless them and there Families.....as usualy we should really allow the investigators tell us what happened.....

Even if he didn't reset his altimeter, that doesn't have any bearing on being below the glideslope. (Unless he was shooting a VOR approach).

 

[C601]

Interesting.

I just recieved the Spec sheets with photos on this GIII Last week. The Aircraft was for sale.

On board it did have a FDR/CVR, so i hope it will make it easier to the NTSB to find out what happened

 

[CitationCapt]

GIII crash at HOU

The NTSB will have the final say, but this seems like classic CFIT (light pole). Not trying to speculate.

ILS 04 OTS. If cleared for the VOR/DME RWY 04 approach.

VOR/DME RWY 04 Straight in minimums 460/40. Ducked below MDA for a look? MAP is .6 from the runway and 1.7 from HUB VOR.

WX at the time 1/8 mile and 100 OVC?


Lord, be with the families of this crew.

CC

 

[Diesel]

Actually not that it happened in this case but the comand bars will dissapear on a RJ, Ultra, and 2000 or other honewell products in a "declutter" mode. Basically the airplane is in some crazy attitude the PFD's will declutter so you can figure out where you are.

 

[Pilot124]

ILS OTS


Here is the approach plates for VOR/DME 4

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00198VD4.PDF

 

[satpak77]

lot of unanswered questions

Obviously the NTSB needs to do its job, and with that said.....

1) WHY was this flight launched out of KDAL when the published METARS were so sh1tty at KHOU? Is it going to "clear up" after 20 minutes when they arrive?
100 and 1/8?

Now that we are past #1,

2) How in the world did anyone THINK that the VOR 04 would get them into the airport? The MDA was 300 feet in the soup. ???

3) If they were indeed flying the ILS to 04 (possible), the viz is 1/2 for the approach. Now we all know Part 91 we can shoot whatever we want, but this is still a Charter operation flying a Gulfstream, with pilots are who picking up the father of the current president. In other words, why would 2 "professional pilots" try to shoot the VOR or the ILS with such sh1tty weather?

what were they going to do? Go missed and hold in the G-III? How long can a G-III hold until it needs to refuel?

4) Is is beyond charter ops to recognize that "hey, not for nothing, but Mr. Bush, the METAR at your airport is 4 times WORSE than the legal viz mins for the ILS....sir, we might be delayed getting over there to pick you up....its not just us sir, all the airlines and other companies are having trouble also, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** weather, we will keep you posted sir". Is that out of line to use that?

just some questions. Not second guessing two dead pilots, whose families will have a sad Christmas, but every aviation accident I ask "what happened" and "what if" and try to learn something from it

 

[seethru]

just some questions. Not second guessing two dead pilots, whose families will have a sad Christmas, but every aviation accident I ask "what happened" and "what if" and try to learn something from it

Exactly how I feel with a lot of these accidents.

And I can't simply say, "Well, it'll never happen to me". Clearly these guys have a lot more experience than I.

What is it that's going through these peoples minds that are causing these accidents?

Greg

 

[Bandit60]

ILS OTS


Here is the approach plates for VOR/DME 4

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00198VD4.PDF

As stated by some others, if an accident happens while shooting an approach it is shut down until the FAA does a flight check on that approach. I would assume that they shot the ILS since the Vor approach is still up and running.

 

[2000flyer]

First, look at the METAR:

KHOU 221309Z 13004KT 2SM BR SCT001 SCT025 BKN090 OVC250 22/22 A3002 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 2 1/2 $

KHOU 221253Z 12005KT 1/8SM BR BKN001 BKN006 OVC050 22/22 A3002 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1 1/4 SLP169 T02170217 $

KHOU 221237Z 12003KT 1/8SM FG SCT001 OVC006 22/21 A3002 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/2 $

KHOU 221227Z 00000KT 1/8SM FG BKN001 OVC006 22/21 A3001 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/2 $

KHOU 221205Z 00000KT 1/8SM FG BKN001 BKN006 OVC055 22/21 A3001 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 1/2

Even when the AO2 visibility was 1/8SM, check out the remarks, "SFC VIS 1/2." This would allow the crew to attempt the approach. Its been many many years since I flew 135, but aren't positioning legs operated under Part 91? If so, the weather can be reported as 0/0 and you can shoot the approach all day long. What was the vis/cig at nearby airports? Did they launch knowing they had a local out if the weather didn't improve by their ETA? All this, of course, is speculation on our part.

An interesting synopsis came up on NBAA's message board. It concerned the light pole struck by the aircraft and it's relation to the ALS system of RWY4. The inference being if the light was aligned with the runway ALS could it have been mistaken and the crew descended below minimums thinking they were at the beginning of the ALS? Situational awareness I know, but it was an interesting thought.

2000Flyer

 

[mayday1]

1) WHY was this flight launched out of KDAL when the published METARS were so sh1tty at KHOU? Is it going to "clear up" after 20 minutes when they arrive?
100 and 1/8?

Have no idea, other than they might have felt unusual pressure to make the flight - picking up the former president and all.

 

[starchkr]

Yes they can take off with the weather 0/0 at destination, they can also shoot an approach with 0/0 if they wish. I rememeber reading awhile back a story where the guy went down the approach 0/0 and continued past DH to land without ever seeing the runway and he was legal because he was 91...and he had the "ba!!s" to do it. Is this still true, can you continue all the way to touchdown if 91 without ever seeing the runway? If so that could lead to another reason an aircraft could get so low on an approach with false signals. I don't know, i just think it is fishy that they would have most likely had their radar altimeter on, their ILS tuned in, their DME's tuned(ILS), two altimeters tuned (even if set incorrectly, still not enough to be 1000'+ low at that point on the approach), and if equipped a GPWS blaring at them, plus lets add in that we have heard nothing of the tower questioning them about their altitude that far out on the approach (wether it be an ILS or a VOR/DME). Hopefully the boxes will tell the story, they were both recoverred yesterday.

 

[Vik]

You can legally shoot the approach as Part 91, but you CANNOT land unless you have 1 of 10 items in sight. Its in FAR Part 91.

If you do and a fed catches you, I guess its his word against yours whether you saw anything or not.

Yes they can take off with the weather 0/0 at destination, they can also shoot an approach with 0/0 if they wish. I rememeber reading awhile back a story where the guy went down the approach 0/0 and continued past DH to land without ever seeing the runway and he was legal because he was 91...and he had the "ba!!s" to do it. Is this still true, can you continue all the way to touchdown if 91 without ever seeing the runway? If so that could lead to another reason an aircraft could get so low on an approach with false signals. I don't know, i just think it is fishy that they would have most likely had their radar altimeter on, their ILS tuned in, their DME's tuned(ILS), two altimeters tuned (even if set incorrectly, still not enough to be 1000'+ low at that point on the approach), and if equipped a GPWS blaring at them, plus lets add in that we have heard nothing of the tower questioning them about their altitude that far out on the approach (wether it be an ILS or a VOR/DME). Hopefully the boxes will tell the story, they were both recoverred yesterday.

 

[FN FAL]

You can legally shoot the approach as Part 91, but you CANNOT land unless you have 1 of 10 items in sight. Its in FAR Part 91.

If you do and a fed catches you, I guess its his word against yours whether you saw anything or not.

True...the view from the cockpit is nice, but it would be pretty hard for any pilot to PROVE he could see a half mile...just as it would be hard for the FEDS to prove he couldn't.

 

[FracCapt]

Its been many many years since I flew 135, but aren't positioning legs operated under Part 91? If so, the weather can be reported as 0/0 and you can shoot the approach all day long.

The 135 companies that I've worked for all had policies regarding minimums, flight times, and duty times, that specified that even if we are empty we treat it as a 135 flight. A couple I worked for didn't specify that, but they were freight operations where 99% of all legs were revenue anyways. As far as I remember it, if you are positioning TO a revenue trip(without a legal rest period between the repo and revenue trip) then you are 135. If you are positioning at the end of a duty day, it's a 91 trip - but cannot be considered rest.

From what I recall from the 135 days, this could vary FSDO to FSDO.

 

[trip]

I thought it was min. inflight visibilty + the required ALS or runway enviroment etc.

 

[LarryinTN]

The ILS 4 requires 1800 RVR. There's nothing in those METARs to indicate that they did not have 1800 RVR.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

91.175