Fuel Requirement Discussion

[av8tor19]

Hello,

Since we are in the middle of thunderstorm season, an interesting scenario came up:

An aircraft is dispatched under 121 from A to B with and alternate of X.

A thunderstorm (summertime airmass type) rolls in over the destination and is estimated to be there for about 30 minutes. It just happens that ATC puts you in to holding over your alternate. What's the bingo fuel?

A. X to B +45 minutes
B. X to B to X +45 minutes
C. X to B +??? minutes

When I got this a dispatcher also quoted 121.631 (interesting read) and slanted towards B. I have used A in the past, but it might change.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Why would it change? Does it matter if you're over X or BFE or Timbuktu? Ya gotta have enough fuel to go from PPOS to B to X + 45. If PPOS happens to be X, then it's X -B - X + 45.

 

[embpic1]

The answer is B

 

[Dogwood]

Hello,

Since we are in the middle of thunderstorm season, an interesting scenario came up:

An aircraft is dispatched under 121 from A to B with and alternate of X.

A thunderstorm (summertime airmass type) rolls in over the destination and is estimated to be there for about 30 minutes. It just happens that ATC puts you in to holding over your alternate. What's the bingo fuel?

A. X to B +45 minutes
B. X to B to X +45 minutes
C. X to B +??? minutes

When I got this a dispatcher also quoted 121.631 (interesting read) and slanted towards B. I have used A in the past, but it might change.

IFR Bingo Fuel is calculated with the following acronym:

D - Present position to Destination Fuel
A - Alternate Fuel
R - :45 Reserve
C - Contingency Fuel (On the 320 I add 1000)

So it appears that B is the correct answer if you are holding over the Alternate.

 

[IBNAV8R]

B.

The 45 minutes is for planning so you would technically be legal if you had to be towed, in the dark, at either X or B. But, I think you'd have some 'splaining to do if you declared a fuel emergency after holding over the planned alternate.

Answer A. would only work for me if there was now NO probability of diverting from B.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Fly to the destination, miss the approach, fly to the most distant alternate, and 45 minutes of flying at last cruise burn rate.

 

[sstearns2]

Hello,

Since we are in the middle of thunderstorm season, an interesting scenario came up:

An aircraft is dispatched under 121 from A to B with and alternate of X.

A thunderstorm (summertime airmass type) rolls in over the destination and is estimated to be there for about 30 minutes. It just happens that ATC puts you in to holding over your alternate. What's the bingo fuel?

A. X to B +45 minutes
B. X to B to X +45 minutes
C. X to B +??? minutes

When I got this a dispatcher also quoted 121.631 (interesting read) and slanted towards B. I have used A in the past, but it might change.

This comes down to the judgement of the captain. If the T-storm moves out of the way and I now have a clear shot at the destination and the weather is now pretty good I'd probably go with A. Once you're in the air it's all your fuel to do with as you see fit.

Scott

 

[SSDD]

The :45 minutes is for planning purposes only. Once you depart, you can use that fuel. You don't have to land with :45 minutes of fuel in the tanks.

 

[propsarebest]

The :45 minutes is for planning purposes only. Once you depart, you can use that fuel. You don't have to land with :45 minutes of fuel in the tanks.

WOW! You have no idea how happy I am to read this!

Most guys think that you have to land with 45 minutes of fuel in the tanks.

It's there for a reason fellas, use it!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The :45 minutes is for planning purposes only. Once you depart, you can use that fuel. You don't have to land with :45 minutes of fuel in the tanks.

True, but now you're "min fuel" which isn't something I like to do on a regular basis. Of course you know that... just saying...

 

[AWACoff]

If I am digging into my 45 minute reserve fuel, I am in a fuel emergency...not min fuel.

 

[Bringupthebird]

There are folks who will dispatch to their "alternate" while using their stated alternate as the actual destination just to carry less fuel. Kind of a "Wal-Mart re-release".

 

[Whine Lover]

I don't even believe conversations like this take place among so-called "Airline Pilots / Aviation Professionals".

Ya'll are joking ....Right?

No?

Okay, here are some more interesting, and debatable , topics for discussion:

- Is the Sky blue?

- Does Fire burn?

- Do Feces smell bad?


Discuss.


Love,

YKMKR

 

[embpic1]

WOW! You have no idea how happy I am to read this!

Most guys think that you have to land with 45 minutes of fuel in the tanks.

It's there for a reason fellas, use it!

Hold it!

Yes the 45 min of fuel is for planning purposes. You can use it. With that said the only reason you should be using that 45 minutes of fuel is if something has happened beyond your control.

I always try to land with my 45 minutes of fuel. I NEVER use that fuel for holding. In my 8000 hours of 121 flying, I have landed 4 times with less that 45 min of fuel (Thunderstorms).

That fuel is there to save your but when the unexpected happens. Keep it in your back pocket.

 

[propsarebest]

Hold it!

Yes the 45 min of fuel is for planning purposes. You can use it. With that said the only reason you should be using that 45 minutes of fuel is if something has happened beyond your control.

I always try to land with my 45 minutes of fuel. I NEVER use that fuel for holding. In my 8000 hours of 121 flying, I have landed 4 times with less that 45 min of fuel (Thunderstorms).

That fuel is there to save your but when the unexpected happens. Keep it in your back pocket.

Yea, and that's just fine. But there are MANY people out there that think they are gonna bust a FAR for burning into the 45 minute (which is domestic only,btw) reserve.

If you get into a pickle, it is there for you to use.

 

[DX Jake]

There are folks who will dispatch to their "alternate" while using their stated alternate as the actual destination just to carry less fuel. Kind of a "Wal-Mart re-release".

1. you lost me there?

2. in response to the very first post, fuel burn from the original destination to the alternate is calculated from the final approach fix of the original destination. It is not calculated from where you are holding. The term "bingo fuel" is a term that was grandfathered. As a dispatcher, I can not tell "what bingo fuel is" especially if you are not going to proceed direct to the airport or go around some weather, or get a big ole radar vector from the fix you are holding at. Thats why we calculate it from the faf.

 

[regionaltard]

B is the most correct answer. The 45 is for planning purposes prior to departure but you dip into it at your own peril.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I've flown with a few guys who think they can burn into the 45 on the ground waiting to take off. They ignore the whole no pilot shall take off without enough fuel. . .

From their perspective, as long as they leave the gate with ramp fuel, they're good to go because they are using the 45 minutes in the "terminal area." (Something from our POM) Ignore that it's on the ground at the departure.

I actually talked with one guy and he said, "Well, if I get close on fuel, I've got my alt fuel - and I'm not going to my alternate!"

Sad.

 

[embpic1]

I've flown with a few guys who think they can burn into the 45 on the ground waiting to take off. They ignore the whole no pilot shall take off without enough fuel. . .

From their perspective, as long as they leave the gate with ramp fuel, they're good to go because they are using the 45 minutes in the "terminal area." (Something from our POM) Ignore that it's on the ground at the departure.

I actually talked with one guy and he said, "Well, if I get close on fuel, I've got my alt fuel - and I'm not going to my alternate!"

Sad.

Wow....

Now that is something that will get you violated. You can't takeoff with fuel less than release fuel which includes your 45 min reserve. Most companies give you taxi fuel on your release. If you use that up on taxi and didn't take any extra it's back to the gate for more gas.

Like someone else said, I can't believe we are even having this debate. Any 121 captain should know this stuff.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I've flown with a few guys who think they can burn into the 45 on the ground waiting to take off. They ignore the whole no pilot shall take off without enough fuel. . .

From their perspective, as long as they leave the gate with ramp fuel, they're good to go because they are using the 45 minutes in the "terminal area." (Something from our POM) Ignore that it's on the ground at the departure.

I actually talked with one guy and he said, "Well, if I get close on fuel, I've got my alt fuel - and I'm not going to my alternate!"

Sad.

Yikes!!!
Pls tell me which airline I need to ensure none of my family members fly on.