Fuel Requirement Discussion

[DX Jake]

There are folks who will dispatch to their "alternate" while using their stated alternate as the actual destination just to carry less fuel. Kind of a "Wal-Mart re-release".

1. you lost me there?

2. in response to the very first post, fuel burn from the original destination to the alternate is calculated from the final approach fix of the original destination. It is not calculated from where you are holding. The term "bingo fuel" is a term that was grandfathered. As a dispatcher, I can not tell "what bingo fuel is" especially if you are not going to proceed direct to the airport or go around some weather, or get a big ole radar vector from the fix you are holding at. Thats why we calculate it from the faf.

 

[regionaltard]

B is the most correct answer. The 45 is for planning purposes prior to departure but you dip into it at your own peril.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I've flown with a few guys who think they can burn into the 45 on the ground waiting to take off. They ignore the whole no pilot shall take off without enough fuel. . .

From their perspective, as long as they leave the gate with ramp fuel, they're good to go because they are using the 45 minutes in the "terminal area." (Something from our POM) Ignore that it's on the ground at the departure.

I actually talked with one guy and he said, "Well, if I get close on fuel, I've got my alt fuel - and I'm not going to my alternate!"

Sad.

 

[embpic1]

I've flown with a few guys who think they can burn into the 45 on the ground waiting to take off. They ignore the whole no pilot shall take off without enough fuel. . .

From their perspective, as long as they leave the gate with ramp fuel, they're good to go because they are using the 45 minutes in the "terminal area." (Something from our POM) Ignore that it's on the ground at the departure.

I actually talked with one guy and he said, "Well, if I get close on fuel, I've got my alt fuel - and I'm not going to my alternate!"

Sad.

Wow....

Now that is something that will get you violated. You can't takeoff with fuel less than release fuel which includes your 45 min reserve. Most companies give you taxi fuel on your release. If you use that up on taxi and didn't take any extra it's back to the gate for more gas.

Like someone else said, I can't believe we are even having this debate. Any 121 captain should know this stuff.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I've flown with a few guys who think they can burn into the 45 on the ground waiting to take off. They ignore the whole no pilot shall take off without enough fuel. . .

From their perspective, as long as they leave the gate with ramp fuel, they're good to go because they are using the 45 minutes in the "terminal area." (Something from our POM) Ignore that it's on the ground at the departure.

I actually talked with one guy and he said, "Well, if I get close on fuel, I've got my alt fuel - and I'm not going to my alternate!"

Sad.

Yikes!!!
Pls tell me which airline I need to ensure none of my family members fly on.

 

[ron burgundy]

Set that byatch down at the nearest airport, refuel, tell dispatch to pi$$ off,and launch when your damn good and ready! Eliminates all the mental masturbation.

 

[instructordude]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

 

[Bringupthebird]

1. you lost me there?

It's just as well. There's no need to put ideas into people's heads.

 

[embpic1]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

As i was reading this i was thinking 'Holy s$#t!'. Then I looked at who wrote it.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Instructordude:
Obviously you have not been flying very long or you just do not pay attention.

Avianca 52. Jan 1990 ran out of fuel around JFK

Air Canada 143 ran out of fuel and dead sticked into an old field.

Air Transat 236 dead sticked into the Azores.

ALM 980 ran out and ditched in the Carribbean

UAL 179 ran out of fuel holding in WA.

There are more but you get the drift!

 

[paulsalem]

It's interesting the wording between part 91 and 121 fuel requirements.

Part 91 VFR - uses begin.
Part 91 IFR - uses operate.
Part 121 - uses takeoff.

To me this reads, that under Part 91 IFR, you continually need to have 45 minutes of fuel.

Whereas VFR and 121, you must only depart with your reserve.

Thoughs?

§ 91.151 Fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions.
(a) No person may begin a flight in an airplane under VFR conditions unless (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel to fly to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising speed—
(1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes; or
(2) At night, to fly after that for at least 45 minutes.

§ 91.167 Fuel requirements for flight in IFR conditions.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft in IFR conditions unless it carries enough fuel (considering weather reports and forecasts and weather conditions) to—
(1) Complete the flight to the first airport of intended landing;
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, fly from that airport to the alternate airport; and
(3) Fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed or, for helicopters, fly after that for 30 minutes at normal cruising speed.

§ 121.639 Fuel supply: All domestic operations.

No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel—
(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
(b) Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
(c) Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption or, for certificate holders who are authorized to conduct day VFR operations in their operations specifications and who are operating nontransport category airplanes type certificated after December 31, 1964, to fly for 30 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption for day VFR operations.

 

[GogglesPisano]

If your FOM is well-written the answer will be spelled out quite specifically for each aircraft type. Including when to declare "min fuel" and "emergency fuel."

You always want to be able to land at your alternate with 45 minutes (domestically.) But once you dispatch (T/O) the FAR's become silent.

PS: Most releases have a "Min fuel for T/O" remark. Makes the take-off fuel pretty simple.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

Good thinking! I haven't had a cavity in years - I think I'll stop brushing my teeth!

 

[dispatchguy]

B

As a dispatcher, the BINGO fuel I would give is based on landing at the alternate with reserves on board, since I cant plan for you to burn reserve fuel; HOWEVER, once I give you your BINGO fuel, you may use it as you see fit.

For the record, most flight planning systems calculate bingo fuel as: forward burn to destination + alternate fuel + 45 min reserve + a reasonable contingency fuel. I always fudge my given bingo fuel upwards depending on the situation at the time.

 

[IBNAV8R]

While it is perfectly legal to burn all one's fuel, our company (I happen to concur) requires us to declare an emergency at 30 minutes of fuel. Therefore, I plan to land at my alternate with at least a 15 minute buffer - 45 minutes