Fuel Requirement Discussion

[ron burgundy]

Set that byatch down at the nearest airport, refuel, tell dispatch to pi$$ off,and launch when your damn good and ready! Eliminates all the mental masturbation.

 

[instructordude]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

 

[Bringupthebird]

1. you lost me there?

It's just as well. There's no need to put ideas into people's heads.

 

[embpic1]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

As i was reading this i was thinking 'Holy s$#t!'. Then I looked at who wrote it.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Instructordude:
Obviously you have not been flying very long or you just do not pay attention.

Avianca 52. Jan 1990 ran out of fuel around JFK

Air Canada 143 ran out of fuel and dead sticked into an old field.

Air Transat 236 dead sticked into the Azores.

ALM 980 ran out and ditched in the Carribbean

UAL 179 ran out of fuel holding in WA.

There are more but you get the drift!

 

[paulsalem]

It's interesting the wording between part 91 and 121 fuel requirements.

Part 91 VFR - uses begin.
Part 91 IFR - uses operate.
Part 121 - uses takeoff.

To me this reads, that under Part 91 IFR, you continually need to have 45 minutes of fuel.

Whereas VFR and 121, you must only depart with your reserve.

Thoughs?

§ 91.151 Fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions.
(a) No person may begin a flight in an airplane under VFR conditions unless (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel to fly to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising speed—
(1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes; or
(2) At night, to fly after that for at least 45 minutes.

§ 91.167 Fuel requirements for flight in IFR conditions.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft in IFR conditions unless it carries enough fuel (considering weather reports and forecasts and weather conditions) to—
(1) Complete the flight to the first airport of intended landing;
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, fly from that airport to the alternate airport; and
(3) Fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed or, for helicopters, fly after that for 30 minutes at normal cruising speed.

§ 121.639 Fuel supply: All domestic operations.

No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel—
(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
(b) Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
(c) Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption or, for certificate holders who are authorized to conduct day VFR operations in their operations specifications and who are operating nontransport category airplanes type certificated after December 31, 1964, to fly for 30 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption for day VFR operations.

 

[GogglesPisano]

If your FOM is well-written the answer will be spelled out quite specifically for each aircraft type. Including when to declare "min fuel" and "emergency fuel."

You always want to be able to land at your alternate with 45 minutes (domestically.) But once you dispatch (T/O) the FAR's become silent.

PS: Most releases have a "Min fuel for T/O" remark. Makes the take-off fuel pretty simple.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

Good thinking! I haven't had a cavity in years - I think I'll stop brushing my teeth!

 

[dispatchguy]

B

As a dispatcher, the BINGO fuel I would give is based on landing at the alternate with reserves on board, since I cant plan for you to burn reserve fuel; HOWEVER, once I give you your BINGO fuel, you may use it as you see fit.

For the record, most flight planning systems calculate bingo fuel as: forward burn to destination + alternate fuel + 45 min reserve + a reasonable contingency fuel. I always fudge my given bingo fuel upwards depending on the situation at the time.

 

[IBNAV8R]

While it is perfectly legal to burn all one's fuel, our company (I happen to concur) requires us to declare an emergency at 30 minutes of fuel. Therefore, I plan to land at my alternate with at least a 15 minute buffer - 45 minutes

 

[SuperFLUF]

You guys are worried about nothing. How many airliners have landed/crahsed without gas, none since I've been flying 121.

If you have 45 minutes, it is there for you to use, so use it: Use it on the ground holding for that flow time into Las Vegas, if you are behind schedule fly fast and get there (the pax want you to) etc.

The reason that no airliners have crashed due to fuel exhaustion during your extensive 121 flying career, is that the PROFESSIONAL pilots who command pt121 (and many pt135) flights DON"T plan to burn in to their 45 minute RESERVE fuel. Its for unforseen circumstances. If you want your 121 career to continue you may want to consider that and take some advice from those who've been around.

If you're headed down final with 47 minutes of "cruising" reseve fuel on board and you have to go around for any number of common reasons, how much fuel do you have left now? Not much fuel for the actual rate you are burning it. Be smart and SAFE with the amount of reserve fuel you have for unknown contingencies that occur at the END of the flight not at the start or the middle. (THE PAX WANT YOU TO) (hell the pax expect and demand you to)

 

[av8tor19]

Thanks for the discussion guys. Paulsalem hit the nail on the head saying for some reason, the fuel FAR's go silent after takeoff in the 121 world.

After reading I should have added:

D. X to B to X +?? minutes

I appreciate everyones viewpoints in this discussion.