FUD at Flight Options

[FR8DOG777]

Nice post

Hey pimp daddy since your a moderator how bout letting loose with his ip address?

 

[Fozzy]

bob,
You are a TOOL! Even the moderators won't help you. How does it feel to know your peers would p____ on your grave if they knew who......oh wait they do.
Bet that grass will be dead.

Go crawl back under your rock.

 

[bchjetdrvr]

B19 Wrote:

I don't care about FLOPS the company. I do care though about those that are not informed that have made the mistake of their career by voting in a union that can ruin the fractional industry.

I think someone ought to send a memo to the 3000 pilots at Netjets their career is ruined. Quick, get out while you can! There's still hope for you guys. MESA is hiring.

Look at how the FLOPS process is going. Pretty horrible, eh? Is it really better now that a union is involved? Not by the posts on this board, thats for sure...

Is the 1108 trying to put the company in ruins so there are no dues to be paid? That must be it. Damn B19, I had you all wrong. U iz so smat.

Oh, and let's not use NJ as an example, they have a contract but it hasn't really been proven to be successful yet. A couple of quick profitable quarters doesn't mean it will be the end all, the same thing happened to United and Delta back in 1999 and 2000 and we all know how that industry leading contract ended.

Why can't we use them as an example? They're only the WORLDS largest fractional. How ignorant would that be to use them as an example.

The fractional industry really started in February of 2005 when the new rules went into place. Two years hardly provides enough data to show that it will work.

Now we know you off your meds. :nuts: Started in 2005!? The only thing that happened that year was they signed in a new contract. An update to one that had already been in place years prior. Oh what happened next? They suffered so hard after making all the money. (company and pilots) sniff sniff poor guys.

-----------------------------------------------
http://www.fractionaljetownership.com/content/history.html

The History of Fractional Jet Ownership
Fractional Jet Ownership is generally acknowledged to have gotten its big push in 1964 with the involvement of well known and respected individuals prominent in aviation circles including General Curtis LeMay, General O.F. Lassiter, Arthur Godfrey and Jimmy Stewart. General Lassiter was the person who created a company which used U.S. Air Force principles in aircraft utilization and management.
In 1965 William P. Lear Jr. and General Paul Tibbets Jr. joined the company then known as Executive Jet Aviation. In 1986, a subsidiary known as NetJets was created.
Richard Santulli is considered the visionary who created the concept of selling fractional ownerships in business jets to companies and individuals who need some business jet transportation, but for whom neither charters nor ownership of a complete airplane fulfilled their needs. This program was begun in earnest in 1987 and the NetJets concept of fractional ownership was born.
In 1998, Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathway, Inc. bought the company for $725 million and is now a major backer of the company now known as Executive Jet. There are now other companies involved in various aspects of Fractional Jet Ownership using the concepts created by Mr. Santulli.
It is predicted that Fractional Jet Ownership and leasing will be the dominant form of ownership of business jets by companies or individuals.

 

[WabiSabi]

Look at how the FLOPS process is going. Pretty horrible, eh? Is it really better now that a union is involved? Not by the posts on this board, thats for sure...

Well BOB, if you would tell Michael, Sanjay, Shirely and F&H to just speed up negotiations, then it would be going much better, The only reason the process is "horrible" is because of management.

 

[GerryG]

Scab

I usually Ban people for using the SCAB word, but you my friend are on the list. Your lucky this pimp cane...never mind. What you did was wrong, and still is...so don't look to me for protection. Good Luck.

Well there you have it folks. B19, whoever he is, is a SCAB. Henceforth, I personally will not give his rantings any credence. He deserves only contempt.

“The scab is a traitor to his God, his mother, and his class”


Jack London

 

[B19 Flyer]

Richard Santulli is considered the visionary who created the concept of selling fractional ownerships in business jets to companies and individuals who need some business jet transportation, but for whom neither charters nor ownership of a complete airplane fulfilled their needs. This program was begun in earnest in 1987 and the NetJets concept of fractional ownership was born.
In 1998, Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathway, Inc. bought the company for $725 million and is now a major backer of the company now known as Executive Jet. There are now other companies involved in various aspects of Fractional Jet Ownership using the concepts created by Mr. Santulli.
It is predicted that Fractional Jet Ownership and leasing will be the dominant form of ownership of business jets by companies or individuals.

Until February of 2005, fractional ownership was a free-for all. The cost of implementing 91K regulations for a Part 91 operator is staggering.

Fractionals were "born" then, not before then. If it was a great business model, there would be more than 18 companies that hold management specifications.

The fractional model is unproven in it's current state and current regulatory atmosphere.

It is a NEW industry and yet to be proven.
________________________________________________

A change in the law governing the way fractional aircraft operations are run takes effect early next year and fractional customers--the owners of fractional shares in airplanes run by programs such as NetJets, FlexJet and Flight Options--will have to give serious consideration to the potential effect those changes could have on their use of the aircraft.

February 17, 2005 is the day "Part 91, Subpart K" takes effect for the major national programs. This rather peculiar name identifies the particular section of the Federal Aviation Regulations that governs fractional aircraft programs. The FARs are the rules the Federal Aviation Administration ("FAA") enacts to govern all aspects of public and private aviation in the United States. With the implementation of 91K looming, fractional customers will need to decide whether they want to accept the legal responsibility of "operational control" for every flight they take--and no one can say, at this point, what that responsibility might mean if an accident were to occur involving the owner's aircraft. More on that subject in a moment.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Chang...+the+new+'Operational+Control'...-a0126240797

 

[Fozzy]

What is your point SCAB?

 

[Fozzy]

Did I make a mistake? Was my info incorrect. Is he not a management tool and a scab? Because if I am wrong, I have some serious apologizing to do and few beers to buy!
I don't throw that word around lightly.
Buy you know what they say.
"If the shoe fits........."

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did I make a mistake? Was my info incorrect. Is he not a management tool and a scab? Because if I am wrong, I have some serious apologizing to do and few beers to buy!
I don't throw that word around lightly.
Buy you know what they say.
"If the shoe fits........."

That is true. If you go through my posts, I have clearly stated that I am no longer in management and that I've haven't flown for many years and never for a union carrier, thus I could have never crossed a picket line. I never worked for Eastern, but I did work for two major airlines, one of them a legacy carrier.

Furthermore, unions have redirected my career twice, and I will never believe that unions will help the industry or are needed in today's day and age.

My opinion has repeatedly been stated, "Be careful what you ask for." Two thirds of the FLOPS pilots asked for a union and they are living with the result. My hope is that all the other non-union fracs will look at what is happening and realize that it is traditional in the industry to go through this mess for as many as three years for the first CBA, and once it's settled expect the consistent turmoil throughout the rest of your career. (And hope the economy doesn't stumble!)

One last thing, I do work for an international carrier without a union. Without question, it is the best and and most secure carrier I've ever been with. It's proof positive that a union isn't needed to make a good living and feel secure in your job.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did I make a mistake? "

To clarify my previous post... Yes, that is true. You made a mistake.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So how do you ban B19 for not making any sense? If he made a little sense fine, but he dosen't.

Because you are not fully informed, I understand why it doesn't make sense to you. There are many that have been screwed over by unions that what I say makes perfect sense.

You would simply prefer the union to speak for you and accept the terms of the MEC rather than take responsibility for your own career.


That makes sense to me.

 

[WabiSabi]

Because you are not fully informed, I understand why it doesn't make sense to you. There are many that have been screwed over by unions that what I say makes perfect sense.

You would simply prefer the union to speak for you and accept the terms of the MEC rather than take responsibility for your own career.


That makes sense to me.

Dear BOB TYLER, Quit patting yourself on the back for your vacuous and mindless anti union drivel. You are under the delusion that your points have merit. Every one of them has be debunked and many in several different ways. Yet, you keep repeating them in every Groundhog Day after Groundhog Day post. You're stupid enough to congratulate yourself as some anti union crusader but, your arguments are just lame. You're the bane of the industry......scab.

 

[fischman]

Because you are not fully informed, I understand why it doesn't make sense to you. There are many that have been screwed over by unions that what I say makes perfect sense.

You would simply prefer the union to speak for you and accept the terms of the MEC rather than take responsibility for your own career.


That makes sense to me.

Wabi is not the only one who is not fully informed.

I have asked you repeatedly to do your homework on fracs, 1108, and especially NJA. Your inaccuracies make you look like a fool, and annoy everyone else.

Missing the start date of the fractional industry by 41 years is an example.

 

[*#$% Headwinds]

What a moron!

So, which statement is the lie? This...

Until February of 2005, fractional ownership was a free-for all. The cost of implementing 91K regulations for a Part 91 operator is staggering.

HaaaHaaaa! Or this...

Fractionals were "born" then, not before then. If it was a great business model, there would be more than 18 companies that hold management specifications.

________________________________________________

Were fractionals a "free for all" before they were "born"? You're funny!

My take is that all your posts are lies. You are a joke.

 

[400pilot]

My thoughts.....

B19, you are either refusing to, or are completely incapable of understanding a few basic things here. For example, take these quotes from your posts....

Furthermore, unions have redirected my career twice, and I will never believe that unions will help the industry or are needed in today's day and age.

OK, fine. How many pilots careers have been "redirected" because of bad management? Based on what I have seen and heard while working in this industry, a whole lot more than those who have been negatively affected by unions. Does this mean that all management is bad? Of course it doesn't. Just because you had bad experiences with unions doesn't mean they are all bad or are not needed.

Two thirds of the FLOPS pilots asked for a union and they are living with the result.

Yes, we are living with the "result". However, it is not the union (ie. the pilots) who are creating this "result". It is our management who is doing everything they can to make this process long and miserable. We are just rolling with it because that's all we can do, for now.

It's proof positive that a union isn't needed to make a good living and feel secure in your job.

I haven't talked to anyone here who thinks that unions are always needed. Options/RTA has not always needed a union. We certainly need one now. I'm glad that your company doesn't need one. Well-managed companies generally do not.

However, this company is not well-managed. Personally, I understand exactly what MS and Co. have been doing here. There are so many better and proven ways to reach the same result. Until recently, I have never seen such Mickey Mouse BS actions and practices come from a group of so called management professionals. I have witnessed first hand their intimidation tactics. I have personally heard (from their mouths) completely illogical and misleading practices, designed that way for only one logical reason. The examples go on.

I will not go into further detail because I don't want to be identified. If identified, I will most certainly be brought to CGF to talk about my "attitude" and probably be dismissed just for this one post. Hogwash, you say? Unfortunately, it is not. This is an example of what they have been doing.

 

[fischman]

Wabi is not the only one who is not fully informed.

I have asked you repeatedly to do your homework on fracs, 1108, and especially NJA. Your inaccuracies make you look like a fool, and annoy everyone else.

Missing the start date of the fractional industry by 41 years is an example.

My apologies to Wabi. My intent was not to say that he is ill informed, just as a transition to B19's lack of knowledge of the current situation.

Cheers brother.:beer:

 

[realityman]

No more debate with B19. He obviously is of the delusional camp that if you repeat lies and half truths enough times they become true.

Well, they don't.

FLOPS now has a union because all other avenues have been tried and led to dead ends. Talking with, discussing, and asking management for improvements at FLOPS has obviously failed. It seems to be working relatively well at Flex, and thus far no union there. But that just isn't the case at FLOPS.

B19 says the union isn't needed. His best advice for these pilots is to just suck it up and take it since you accepted employment there. Oh, and keep talking things over with management. After all, it's worked really well so far (for management!). Don't worry, one day they MAY throw you a bone. But a union certainly isn't needed.

B19 continues to try to make it sound like unions ruin companies. He continually fails to discuss whether these companies were doing well before the unions supposedly 'killed' them or if, as is the case in pretty much every example, the company was teetering on the brink of financial ruin anyway.

How many companies do we all know about and see every day, that when times were tough, whether union or non-union, wages and benefits were slashed to the bone, and the company still went under anyway.

B19 likes to hold up United and American as prime examples of how unions can ask for too much and ruin a company. He fails to mention that the union contracts at those companies didn't cause the problems, the economy and bad management did. The economy slowed down. The average airline pax couldn't afford to fly so much. The airline's own overscheduling at hub airports created massive delays. Refusal to keep pax in the loop, or even provide basic decent service created much ill will. Cutting back on amenities and services further incited pax backlash. Competition from LCC's (some of whom still have highly paid pilots) cut into the money further. Soaring fuel costs. Costly govn't regs that had to be implemented. And so on and so forth.

But according to B19, none of these factors had anything to do with United's and American's downfall. It was the unions. Riiiiight (in my best Dr. Evil voice).

And he STILL, after numerous posts about it, hasn't commented on upper management walking away with huge sums of money and bonuses while the unions are expected to take concessions. His take: management's contracts should be honored, the unions should give it up.

From now on, when B19 holds a company up as an example of how a union destroyed it, do a little research and see what condition the company was in before the union killed it. I think you'll find he's kind of glossing over the most important parts.

No more debating with someone with his, ahem, 'background', as has been revealed on these boards.

Good luck FLOPS guys and gals! It really IS a tough fight, but few things worthwhile in life aren't gotten without some kind of fight.

 

[WabiSabi]

My apologies to Wabi. My intent was not to say that he is ill informed, just as a transition to B19's lack of knowledge of the current situation.

Cheers brother.:beer:

Cheers!:beer:

 

[Hobbes]

It is tempting to think that ignoring him would shut him up...but I don't think it will. He is directed by Fud and Harrassment to post his sludge for any fence sitters who may use a forum like this looking for the truth that mgmt so desperately seeks to hide. He will continue to post and find ANYONE to argue with in his vain attempt to prove the unprovable, that unionization is "bad" and hurts careers....when unions come about because corrupt managers like HIM, are what ruin the careers and necessitate the existence of unions so good honest employees can band together and demand what is right in terms of work rules, safety, compensation packages and the like.

In fact, his presence on here, and the constant refuting of his spew probably help us more than anything, even though it is irritating to have to even look at it.

 

[GerryG]

You're right brother. My "solidarity on a message board" comment was made tongue in cheek.

But let's not get side tracked. The point is a moderator (who would know) has confirmed he crossed a picket line. That makes him filth.

One effective course of action might be to consistently refer to him in the third person. That will be madding for him. Refuted and disputed never acknowledged. Kind of like picking up a piece of dog s**t with a hankie and tossing it in the rubbish.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You're right brother. My "solidarity on a message board" comment was made tongue in cheek.

But let's not get side tracked. The point is a moderator (who would know) has confirmed he crossed a picket line. That makes him filth.

One effective course of action might be to consistently refer to him in the third person. That will be madding for him. Refuted and disputed never acknowledged. Kind of like picking up a piece of dog s**t with a hankie and tossing it in the rubbish.

Gerry, I think of all union supporters in the third person because they all rely on somebody else to speak for them.

Oh, and there is no way that I could have crossed a picket line, even if I wanted to. All the union actions I've been involved with I was in management and not flying, but that still didn't stop me from getting laid off and despising unions just that much more.

 

[Hobbes]

Gerry, I think of all union supporters in the third person because they all rely on somebody else to speak for them.

Oh, and there is no way that I could have crossed a picket line, even if I wanted to. All the union actions I've been involved with I was in management and not flying, but that still didn't stop me from getting laid off and despising unions just that much more.

Oops wrong again ALPO for brains. In a union we don't let someone else speak for us, we have banded together to speak as one. The union IS the pilots...without one voice, corrupt management is able to continue to practice deceipt and oppression.

We won't take too much credence on anything that you say about your own past because you have already admitted to being two faced and posting with various "alter" egos on here to further your evil agenda.

PS - good luck with your misinformation campaign. Wow, I hope you spend as much time involved with that other utopian non-union airline where you supposedly work as you do trying to damage the careers of the pilots who work at Flight Options.

 

[Fozzy]

And what is wrong with that?

Gerry, I think of all union supporters in the third person because they all rely on somebody else to speak for them.

First off, that "somebody else" is actually all the pilots speaking. We just choose to do it as one voice. I think the collective voice of 2800 pilots has a he!l of a lot more pull than your lonely voice.
Keep throwing those insults, I find them pretty funny.:laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

So, which statement is the lie? This...

HaaaHaaaa! Or this...


Were fractionals a "free for all" before they were "born"? You're funny!

My take is that all your posts are lies. You are a joke.

If they were not a free for all, the DOT and FAA would not have stepped in to regulate them in February of 2005. There were no rest rules, no operating or maintenance standards beyond Part 91.

Futhermore, if the model was a great way to make money, why are there only 18 sets of management specs issued in the US? (and you need to ask yourself how and why I know that)

It's an unproven business model in it's current regulatory state that has not shown a high degree of profitablity. Unions will not help the fractional industry.

And one last thing, none of my posts are lies. I gave the link to prove that fractionals did not exist in their current state until February of 2005, and I'm not laughing or calling you names.

 

[B19 Flyer]

First off, that "somebody else" is actually all the pilots speaking. We just choose to do it as one voice. I think the collective voice of 2800 pilots has a he!l of a lot more pull than your lonely voice.
Keep throwing those insults, I find them pretty funny.:laugh:

From what I've seen in any other union I've been around, it's a small percentage of pilots that are the voice (the MEC) and a the rest just give in because they will be forced to at some point. Furthermore, at FLOPS, only 2/3 of the pilots voted for the union.

If true, that means 1/3 of the pilots are not in the same lock-step as those that are, thus it is not one singular voice as you seem to state above.

 

[Hobbes]

Futhermore, if the model was a great way to make money, why are there only 18 sets of management specs issued in the US? (and you need to ask yourself how and why I know that)

Oh, it's the ALL POWERFUL WIZARD OF OZ, who won't come out from behind the curtain. OOOHHHH. Tremble, tremble.

Could you know that because you are BOB TYLER and FUD and HARRASSMENT fed you that data? Me thinks this is likely.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oops wrong again ALPO for brains. In a union we don't let someone else speak for us, we have banded together to speak as one. The union IS the pilots...without one voice, corrupt management is able to continue to practice deceipt and oppression.

We won't take too much credence on anything that you say about your own past because you have already admitted to being two faced and posting with various "alter" egos on here to further your evil agenda.

PS - good luck with your misinformation campaign. Wow, I hope you spend as much time involved with that other utopian non-union airline where you supposedly work as you do trying to damage the careers of the pilots who work at Flight Options.

As stated before, I'm only here because I enjoy the debate. Unions have destroyed as many careers as they have helped.
I have the time because there is no union for me to have to fuss with.

When I post, it's not for those that post against me, it's for those that sit silently on the sideline. The ones that post against me like you have already drank the kool-aid and are beyond saving.

 

[fischman]

Everyone pay heed!!!

B19 has spoken!!!

Fractionals did not exist until 2005.

It must be true because B19 SAID SO!!!


Hey all, if you weren't working for a frac before 2005, what were you working for?

B19, your arrogance is staggering. :nuts:

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh, it's the ALL POWERFUL WIZARD OF OZ, who won't come out from behind the curtain. OOOHHHH. Tremble, tremble.

Could you know that because you are BOB TYLER and FUD and HARRASSMENT fed you that data? Me thinks this is likely.

You didn't answer the question.

Why are there so few fractionals if it is a successful business model, and why aren't the existing ones just overflowing with cash and record profits? For the amount of aircraft NJ has, the profit is pretty meager by corporate standards. And the rest are pretty much getting by. Do you really believe union intervention is going to help the industry?

Even the Wizard of Oz broke things down to the most simplistic issues. Magic wasn't needed in that fantasy movie was it? Unions won't create the magic you think they will. Be careful what you ask for...

 

[Fozzy]

If true, that means 1/3 of the pilots are not in the same lock-step as those that are, thus it is not one singular voice as you seem to state above.

So are you having a hard time running FLOPS with only 30% of the pilots as team players???:crying:

Just kidding Bob.

As a stats thing, 66% is pretty big. Hell that is landslide in the world of politics.
I think, and this is a guess, that number is a bit higher now. Some guys are scared of the unknown. Would make for an interesting study to see how many FLOPS guys feel better with a Union.

Oh and as far as the MEC being the small % and voice, you are a little off base.