FUD at Flight Options

[*#$% Headwinds]

Isn't it very telling that "B19"'s first post was on a FLOPs thread and most of his anti union bile has been directed at FLOPs? Aside from the occasional attack on NJ, since they are the model of IBT 1108's success. Yet he works for some unnamed, idyllic "non-union" airline. Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Just smile and wave boys...just smile and wave. Nothing to see here. Keep it moving. B19 is off his meds....keep it moving.

So I quote the truth, give the information so the masses can see that it's FAA and DOT (not FLOPS management), and this is the best you can do?

 

[*#$% Headwinds]

nevermind

 

[WabiSabi]

for singular/plural clarification, below is a corrected post from my original bourbon induced post as you can see, BOB, same idea;

B19, it's funny how the MAJORITY of your posts are anti-IBT1108 ala FLOPS.

Have nice day BOB TYLER.......you f-ing idiot!

 

[bchjetdrvr]

"imp: ain't easy...but neccesary."​

Just in case ya'll missed it the 1st time around since this ended on page 1.

Guys,

It's illegal. His intepretation is going to get his dick in a ringer. My .02 cents and advice is document...document..document. Then when you're done with that, document some more. What I mean is always document who you called, what was said, who said what to whom, date, time, phone #, forward emails to your home, etc... Build your ammo should you ever need it.

If/when you consider leaving any job, the first call you should make is to HR. Flat out ask them, what is their current policy and procedures in place when dealing with a prospective employer that calls to do employment verification on you.

This is a small world this aviation business. Keep your friends close. Document what's going on with you and with them. WHY? Cause if they aren't on a straight and narrow path with procedures involving each employee, their in a sh$t load of trouble.

Don't let these fear tactics scare you. Sit back, relax, drink a beer (off duty):beer: and take the time to do your homework. First off start by reading the article below.

-------------------------

Can My Old Employer Tell Potential Employers That They Fired Me?


Recently I have been asked a lot of questions about what employers can and can’t disclose about a former employee’s performance and reasons for leaving the company. So, I decided to find out what the law says as well as what in-house counsel would generally advise an HR department about disclosures. I consulted with my attorney friend Carole Jurkash, a fellow University of Chicago graduate who went on to get her law degree from Yale Law School to find out what the law says about this topic. Carole really knows what she is talking about because she has 17 years of experience advising various corporations on general business matters as an in-house attorney.

Carole made it clear that in most states employees are hired “at will” which means they can be fired at any time for almost any reason. The exceptions to “almost any reason” are that an employer can’t fire you for any the following: your gender, your race, your religion, your sexual orientation, your age, any disabilities you might have, or your marital status. If you are fired for any of those reasons you might have grounds to sue your former employer.

Employers are not prohibited by law from telling a potential employer who calls for a reference about a former employee the reasons that the employee left as long as the information they share is truthful. However, a lot of employers opt not to share the reasons that employees have left the company or to give any kind of references for any former or current employees.

While an employer may be able to fire you for just about any reason, it is in the employer’s interest to be consistent with all employees in order to avoid employment discrimination claims. In other words, as a best practice to avoid liability in employment cases, many lawyers advise employers to adopt a set of policies that are applied to all employees equally. Consistency is a very important element in understanding why employers may or may not choose to discuss the reasons a former employee left the company as you will see in a minute.

One thing that employers want to avoid is a disparagement lawsuit. “Disparagement” means saying something about a former employee that isn't true, that is slanderous, or is intended to hurt the former employee. In order to avoid the possibility of a disparagement lawsuit, many employers opt not to give any references at all. That’s right – no references for anyone. Instead, many employers choose to institute a policy of only confirming dates of employment and salary information.

But why not give good references to employees who leave on good terms? Why give no references at all?

Employers are cautious about disclosing information about the performance of former employees because of a combination two things: the need for consistent treatment of all employees to avoid employment discrimination claims and a desire to avoid risking disparagement lawsuits.

For example, if an employer discloses information related to a former employee’s poor performance the former employee in question could challenge that claim in court and claim that the employer is slandering them. Or that there was some sort of discrimination (whether there was or not). Even if an employer is perfectly justified in firing a poor performer it is likely that the employer’s attorney will advise them to keep quiet about the reasons for the firing. Why? Because, as you can see there is really no upside to the employer to disclose that information. Attorneys try to minimize risk for their clients. Since disclosing reasons for termination could be considered a risk it is likely that most employers will simply not do so.

On the other hand if an employer gives glowing references for its former employees who were star performers while staying mum about the poor performers, they run the risk that a poor performer could sue them for being inconsistent in their policies. Seem crazy? The “poor” performer’s argument goes like this: the “poor” performer claims that the real reason that the employer is refusing to give a reference is based on an unlawful discriminatory reason [race, religion, etc.], and that the employer always gives good references, for example, to ex-employees who are Catholic males under forty with Irish surnames regardless of the quality of their performance, and never gives references to Buddhist females over forty. Well the key to successfully avoiding or defending this type of claim is for employers to treat all employees equally. So, if they say great things when someone calls to check references for “good” performers and say nothing about the “bad” performers, they are not treating everyone equally. So many employers won’t give any kind of reference at all. If you happen to have been fired for poor performance this situation is certainly better for you than some alternatives.

So to wrap this up…Can a former employer disclose information about your job performance or the reasons you left the company to someone who calls to check your references? The short answer is: yes they can as long as they are truthful in what they disclose. The longer answer is that most employers choose to minimize the risk of certain types of lawsuits and therefore don’t disclose any performance related information about former employees or the reasons that employees have left the company.

If you are leaving a company for any reason ask your HR representative or the company’s legal counsel what the policy is about references for former employees. Finding out the company policy is the only way to know what you can expect in terms of a reference from a former employer.

Special thanks to Carole Jurkash for offering her thoughts on this important topic.


http://ultimate-resumes.blogspot.com/2007/05/can-my-old-employer-tell-potential.html

 

[bchjetdrvr]

And just in case you missed page 2.

A caveat to my statement above - "It's illegal" - It sort of is and sort of isn't.

ALL pilots take notice. Do your homework. BE PROACTIVE.

The following flow chart from the feds shows how Flops and other HR flight departments have to deal with PRIA and the requests from new employers.

You have to know this....YOU ARE IN THE LOOP. Make sure you are. What certain flight department HR people (eh em FLOPS), might not want you to know, is that you have to be in the loop and have the oppurtunity to dispute and have corrections made to anything in yor file. If you're not in the loop and kept out of the loop....er ILLEGAL.

Another "Go straight to Jail" action that gets HR in trouble is this. Disparity. A big no-no. IE 2 pilots are fired or leave. Both of their new employers come knocking and are doing the whole employment verification thing. If the previous company divulges more or less information inconsisent with regards to both those piltos...that's a big NO NO.

The hard part is knowing it. That 's why you have to be proactive. Stay in touch with your frends leaving. Again. Specificly ask the HR department what the policy and procedures are when dealing with employement verification.

Know the process!

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/overview/media/flowchart.rtf

"After the records have been received, the pilot/applicant may review them and submit a statement to correct any inaccuracies."​

 

[chingaso]

Despite what this poser named B19 posts about FAA and DOT guidelines, Bob Tyler sent that email to Flight Options pilots specifically to scare them with the message: "dont piss us off or we'll fire you. And if we fire you we can hurt your career. We still have power over you, so you'd better do what we say."

I have in my mind a picture of one of the 3 Stooges saying, "boy I tall ya, ya give me any funny business, I'm gonna knock you into next week mister!"

It was just intimidation and no one at Options takes him seriously anymore. The whole aviation industry has stopped taking Flight Options seriously, and I am certain that any future employer will be very understanding of the bulls**t a pilot has to deal with from Options since its such industry-wide common knowledge. Small community, everyone knows where all the bodies are buried.

It was a vapid threat.

I can't believe this B19 dude still has the nuts to post on here. He's already been called out. He won't tell anyone where he actually works, some fictitious Part 121 carrier that is blissfully 'non-union.' He also says he did some fractional work, but won't say for who. He only posts on FLOPS messages. He's a poser. He doesn't have any 121 time, nor fractional time. If his job was so great, why would he spend so much time on a computer message board concerning a company that he shouldn't care about?

If everyone were to just ignore him he'd eventually go away.

 

[WabiSabi]

I can't believe this B19 dude still has the nuts to post on here. He's already been called out. He won't tell anyone where he actually works, some fictitious Part 121 carrier that is blissfully 'non-union.' He also says he did some fractional work, but won't say for who. He only posts on FLOPS messages. He's a poser. He doesn't have any 121 time, nor fractional time. If his job was so great, why would he spend so much time on a computer message board concerning a company that he shouldn't care about?

If everyone were to just ignore him he'd eventually go away.

It is because B19 is indeed BOB TYLER!

Hey Bob, BTW; I met a cab driver that was a non scab Eastern pilot. He gave us the scoop. "See you on the line!"

 

[B19 Flyer]

It is because B19 is indeed BOB TYLER!

Hey Bob, BTW; I met a cab driver that was a non scab Eastern pilot. He gave us the scoop. "See you on the line!"

Whatever........

 

[B19 Flyer]

Despite what this poser named B19 posts about FAA and DOT guidelines, Bob Tyler sent that email to Flight Options pilots specifically to scare them with the message: "dont piss us off or we'll fire you. And if we fire you we can hurt your career. We still have power over you, so you'd better do what we say."

I have in my mind a picture of one of the 3 Stooges saying, "boy I tall ya, ya give me any funny business, I'm gonna knock you into next week mister!"

It was just intimidation and no one at Options takes him seriously anymore. The whole aviation industry has stopped taking Flight Options seriously, and I am certain that any future employer will be very understanding of the bulls**t a pilot has to deal with from Options since its such industry-wide common knowledge. Small community, everyone knows where all the bodies are buried.

It was a vapid threat.

I can't believe this B19 dude still has the nuts to post on here. He's already been called out. He won't tell anyone where he actually works, some fictitious Part 121 carrier that is blissfully 'non-union.' He also says he did some fractional work, but won't say for who. He only posts on FLOPS messages. He's a poser. He doesn't have any 121 time, nor fractional time. If his job was so great, why would he spend so much time on a computer message board concerning a company that he shouldn't care about?

If everyone were to just ignore him he'd eventually go away.

Huh? All of a sudden, new interpretations of rules are threats to pilots? Since when? Gee, that must have really been something when Whitlow came out. What a threat that was, eh? Unions were more than happy to share that interpretation, but it's funny they let the company beat them to the PRIA rules. Typical union, convieniently overlooking something that they knew would be an issue.

I don't care about FLOPS the company. I do care though about those that are not informed that have made the mistake of their career by voting in a union that can ruin the fractional industry.

Look at how the FLOPS process is going. Pretty horrible, eh? Is it really better now that a union is involved? Not by the posts on this board, thats for sure...

Oh, and let's not use NJ as an example, they have a contract but it hasn't really been proven to be successful yet. A couple of quick profitable quarters doesn't mean it will be the end all, the same thing happened to United and Delta back in 1999 and 2000 and we all know how that industry leading contract ended.

The fractional industry really started in February of 2005 when the new rules went into place. Two years hardly provides enough data to show that it will work.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Nice post

Hey pimp daddy since your a moderator how bout letting loose with his ip address?

 

[Fozzy]

bob,
You are a TOOL! Even the moderators won't help you. How does it feel to know your peers would p____ on your grave if they knew who......oh wait they do.
Bet that grass will be dead.

Go crawl back under your rock.

 

[bchjetdrvr]

B19 Wrote:

I don't care about FLOPS the company. I do care though about those that are not informed that have made the mistake of their career by voting in a union that can ruin the fractional industry.

I think someone ought to send a memo to the 3000 pilots at Netjets their career is ruined. Quick, get out while you can! There's still hope for you guys. MESA is hiring.

Look at how the FLOPS process is going. Pretty horrible, eh? Is it really better now that a union is involved? Not by the posts on this board, thats for sure...

Is the 1108 trying to put the company in ruins so there are no dues to be paid? That must be it. Damn B19, I had you all wrong. U iz so smat.

Oh, and let's not use NJ as an example, they have a contract but it hasn't really been proven to be successful yet. A couple of quick profitable quarters doesn't mean it will be the end all, the same thing happened to United and Delta back in 1999 and 2000 and we all know how that industry leading contract ended.

Why can't we use them as an example? They're only the WORLDS largest fractional. How ignorant would that be to use them as an example.

The fractional industry really started in February of 2005 when the new rules went into place. Two years hardly provides enough data to show that it will work.

Now we know you off your meds. :nuts: Started in 2005!? The only thing that happened that year was they signed in a new contract. An update to one that had already been in place years prior. Oh what happened next? They suffered so hard after making all the money. (company and pilots) sniff sniff poor guys.

-----------------------------------------------
http://www.fractionaljetownership.com/content/history.html

The History of Fractional Jet Ownership
Fractional Jet Ownership is generally acknowledged to have gotten its big push in 1964 with the involvement of well known and respected individuals prominent in aviation circles including General Curtis LeMay, General O.F. Lassiter, Arthur Godfrey and Jimmy Stewart. General Lassiter was the person who created a company which used U.S. Air Force principles in aircraft utilization and management.
In 1965 William P. Lear Jr. and General Paul Tibbets Jr. joined the company then known as Executive Jet Aviation. In 1986, a subsidiary known as NetJets was created.
Richard Santulli is considered the visionary who created the concept of selling fractional ownerships in business jets to companies and individuals who need some business jet transportation, but for whom neither charters nor ownership of a complete airplane fulfilled their needs. This program was begun in earnest in 1987 and the NetJets concept of fractional ownership was born.
In 1998, Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathway, Inc. bought the company for $725 million and is now a major backer of the company now known as Executive Jet. There are now other companies involved in various aspects of Fractional Jet Ownership using the concepts created by Mr. Santulli.
It is predicted that Fractional Jet Ownership and leasing will be the dominant form of ownership of business jets by companies or individuals.

 

[WabiSabi]

Look at how the FLOPS process is going. Pretty horrible, eh? Is it really better now that a union is involved? Not by the posts on this board, thats for sure...

Well BOB, if you would tell Michael, Sanjay, Shirely and F&H to just speed up negotiations, then it would be going much better, The only reason the process is "horrible" is because of management.

 

[GerryG]

Scab

I usually Ban people for using the SCAB word, but you my friend are on the list. Your lucky this pimp cane...never mind. What you did was wrong, and still is...so don't look to me for protection. Good Luck.

Well there you have it folks. B19, whoever he is, is a SCAB. Henceforth, I personally will not give his rantings any credence. He deserves only contempt.

“The scab is a traitor to his God, his mother, and his class”


Jack London

 

[B19 Flyer]

Richard Santulli is considered the visionary who created the concept of selling fractional ownerships in business jets to companies and individuals who need some business jet transportation, but for whom neither charters nor ownership of a complete airplane fulfilled their needs. This program was begun in earnest in 1987 and the NetJets concept of fractional ownership was born.
In 1998, Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathway, Inc. bought the company for $725 million and is now a major backer of the company now known as Executive Jet. There are now other companies involved in various aspects of Fractional Jet Ownership using the concepts created by Mr. Santulli.
It is predicted that Fractional Jet Ownership and leasing will be the dominant form of ownership of business jets by companies or individuals.

Until February of 2005, fractional ownership was a free-for all. The cost of implementing 91K regulations for a Part 91 operator is staggering.

Fractionals were "born" then, not before then. If it was a great business model, there would be more than 18 companies that hold management specifications.

The fractional model is unproven in it's current state and current regulatory atmosphere.

It is a NEW industry and yet to be proven.
________________________________________________

A change in the law governing the way fractional aircraft operations are run takes effect early next year and fractional customers--the owners of fractional shares in airplanes run by programs such as NetJets, FlexJet and Flight Options--will have to give serious consideration to the potential effect those changes could have on their use of the aircraft.

February 17, 2005 is the day "Part 91, Subpart K" takes effect for the major national programs. This rather peculiar name identifies the particular section of the Federal Aviation Regulations that governs fractional aircraft programs. The FARs are the rules the Federal Aviation Administration ("FAA") enacts to govern all aspects of public and private aviation in the United States. With the implementation of 91K looming, fractional customers will need to decide whether they want to accept the legal responsibility of "operational control" for every flight they take--and no one can say, at this point, what that responsibility might mean if an accident were to occur involving the owner's aircraft. More on that subject in a moment.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Chang...+the+new+'Operational+Control'...-a0126240797

 

[Fozzy]

What is your point SCAB?

 

[Fozzy]

Did I make a mistake? Was my info incorrect. Is he not a management tool and a scab? Because if I am wrong, I have some serious apologizing to do and few beers to buy!
I don't throw that word around lightly.
Buy you know what they say.
"If the shoe fits........."

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did I make a mistake? Was my info incorrect. Is he not a management tool and a scab? Because if I am wrong, I have some serious apologizing to do and few beers to buy!
I don't throw that word around lightly.
Buy you know what they say.
"If the shoe fits........."

That is true. If you go through my posts, I have clearly stated that I am no longer in management and that I've haven't flown for many years and never for a union carrier, thus I could have never crossed a picket line. I never worked for Eastern, but I did work for two major airlines, one of them a legacy carrier.

Furthermore, unions have redirected my career twice, and I will never believe that unions will help the industry or are needed in today's day and age.

My opinion has repeatedly been stated, "Be careful what you ask for." Two thirds of the FLOPS pilots asked for a union and they are living with the result. My hope is that all the other non-union fracs will look at what is happening and realize that it is traditional in the industry to go through this mess for as many as three years for the first CBA, and once it's settled expect the consistent turmoil throughout the rest of your career. (And hope the economy doesn't stumble!)

One last thing, I do work for an international carrier without a union. Without question, it is the best and and most secure carrier I've ever been with. It's proof positive that a union isn't needed to make a good living and feel secure in your job.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did I make a mistake? "

To clarify my previous post... Yes, that is true. You made a mistake.