Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
FUD at Flight Options
- Thread starter GerryG
- Start date
- Watchers 23
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
CALRepublic
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2008
- Posts
- 577
When you get your new contract (hopefully soon), and things improve, would you still stay at FLOPS or get the hell out????
A good friend works at FLOPS (8 yrs.), I'm trying to get'em to come over to NetJets, but he says he doesn't want to start all over again; "don't want to be at the bottom on the NJ seniority list".
A good friend works at FLOPS (8 yrs.), I'm trying to get'em to come over to NetJets, but he says he doesn't want to start all over again; "don't want to be at the bottom on the NJ seniority list".
bchjetdrvr
King Of Swing
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Posts
- 96
Guys,
It's illegal. His intepretation is going to get his dick in a ringer. My .02 cents and advice is document...document..document. Then when you're done with that, document some more. What I mean is always document who you called, what was said, who said what to whom, date, time, phone #, forward emails to your home, etc... Build your ammo should you ever need it.
If/when you consider leaving any job, the first call you should make is to HR. Flat out ask them, what is their current policy and procedures in place when dealing with a prospective employer that calls to do employment verification on you.
This is a small world this aviation business. Keep your friends close. Document what's going on with you and with them. WHY? Cause if they aren't on a straight and narrow path with procedures involving each employee, their in a sh$t load of trouble.
Don't let these fear tactics scare you. Sit back, relax, drink a beer (off duty):beer: and take the time to do your homework. First off start by reading the article below.
-------------------------
Can My Old Employer Tell Potential Employers That They Fired Me?
Recently I have been asked a lot of questions about what employers can and can’t disclose about a former employee’s performance and reasons for leaving the company. So, I decided to find out what the law says as well as what in-house counsel would generally advise an HR department about disclosures. I consulted with my attorney friend Carole Jurkash, a fellow University of Chicago graduate who went on to get her law degree from Yale Law School to find out what the law says about this topic. Carole really knows what she is talking about because she has 17 years of experience advising various corporations on general business matters as an in-house attorney.
Carole made it clear that in most states employees are hired “at will” which means they can be fired at any time for almost any reason. The exceptions to “almost any reason” are that an employer can’t fire you for any the following: your gender, your race, your religion, your sexual orientation, your age, any disabilities you might have, or your marital status. If you are fired for any of those reasons you might have grounds to sue your former employer.
Employers are not prohibited by law from telling a potential employer who calls for a reference about a former employee the reasons that the employee left as long as the information they share is truthful. However, a lot of employers opt not to share the reasons that employees have left the company or to give any kind of references for any former or current employees.
While an employer may be able to fire you for just about any reason, it is in the employer’s interest to be consistent with all employees in order to avoid employment discrimination claims. In other words, as a best practice to avoid liability in employment cases, many lawyers advise employers to adopt a set of policies that are applied to all employees equally. Consistency is a very important element in understanding why employers may or may not choose to discuss the reasons a former employee left the company as you will see in a minute.
One thing that employers want to avoid is a disparagement lawsuit. “Disparagement” means saying something about a former employee that isn't true, that is slanderous, or is intended to hurt the former employee. In order to avoid the possibility of a disparagement lawsuit, many employers opt not to give any references at all. That’s right – no references for anyone. Instead, many employers choose to institute a policy of only confirming dates of employment and salary information.
But why not give good references to employees who leave on good terms? Why give no references at all?
Employers are cautious about disclosing information about the performance of former employees because of a combination two things: the need for consistent treatment of all employees to avoid employment discrimination claims and a desire to avoid risking disparagement lawsuits.
For example, if an employer discloses information related to a former employee’s poor performance the former employee in question could challenge that claim in court and claim that the employer is slandering them. Or that there was some sort of discrimination (whether there was or not). Even if an employer is perfectly justified in firing a poor performer it is likely that the employer’s attorney will advise them to keep quiet about the reasons for the firing. Why? Because, as you can see there is really no upside to the employer to disclose that information. Attorneys try to minimize risk for their clients. Since disclosing reasons for termination could be considered a risk it is likely that most employers will simply not do so.
On the other hand if an employer gives glowing references for its former employees who were star performers while staying mum about the poor performers, they run the risk that a poor performer could sue them for being inconsistent in their policies. Seem crazy? The “poor” performer’s argument goes like this: the “poor” performer claims that the real reason that the employer is refusing to give a reference is based on an unlawful discriminatory reason [race, religion, etc.], and that the employer always gives good references, for example, to ex-employees who are Catholic males under forty with Irish surnames regardless of the quality of their performance, and never gives references to Buddhist females over forty. Well the key to successfully avoiding or defending this type of claim is for employers to treat all employees equally. So, if they say great things when someone calls to check references for “good” performers and say nothing about the “bad” performers, they are not treating everyone equally. So many employers won’t give any kind of reference at all. If you happen to have been fired for poor performance this situation is certainly better for you than some alternatives.
So to wrap this up…Can a former employer disclose information about your job performance or the reasons you left the company to someone who calls to check your references? The short answer is: yes they can as long as they are truthful in what they disclose. The longer answer is that most employers choose to minimize the risk of certain types of lawsuits and therefore don’t disclose any performance related information about former employees or the reasons that employees have left the company.
If you are leaving a company for any reason ask your HR representative or the company’s legal counsel what the policy is about references for former employees. Finding out the company policy is the only way to know what you can expect in terms of a reference from a former employer.
Special thanks to Carole Jurkash for offering her thoughts on this important topic.
http://ultimate-resumes.blogspot.com/2007/05/can-my-old-employer-tell-potential.html
It's illegal. His intepretation is going to get his dick in a ringer. My .02 cents and advice is document...document..document. Then when you're done with that, document some more. What I mean is always document who you called, what was said, who said what to whom, date, time, phone #, forward emails to your home, etc... Build your ammo should you ever need it.
If/when you consider leaving any job, the first call you should make is to HR. Flat out ask them, what is their current policy and procedures in place when dealing with a prospective employer that calls to do employment verification on you.
This is a small world this aviation business. Keep your friends close. Document what's going on with you and with them. WHY? Cause if they aren't on a straight and narrow path with procedures involving each employee, their in a sh$t load of trouble.
Don't let these fear tactics scare you. Sit back, relax, drink a beer (off duty):beer: and take the time to do your homework. First off start by reading the article below.
-------------------------
Can My Old Employer Tell Potential Employers That They Fired Me?
Recently I have been asked a lot of questions about what employers can and can’t disclose about a former employee’s performance and reasons for leaving the company. So, I decided to find out what the law says as well as what in-house counsel would generally advise an HR department about disclosures. I consulted with my attorney friend Carole Jurkash, a fellow University of Chicago graduate who went on to get her law degree from Yale Law School to find out what the law says about this topic. Carole really knows what she is talking about because she has 17 years of experience advising various corporations on general business matters as an in-house attorney.
Carole made it clear that in most states employees are hired “at will” which means they can be fired at any time for almost any reason. The exceptions to “almost any reason” are that an employer can’t fire you for any the following: your gender, your race, your religion, your sexual orientation, your age, any disabilities you might have, or your marital status. If you are fired for any of those reasons you might have grounds to sue your former employer.
Employers are not prohibited by law from telling a potential employer who calls for a reference about a former employee the reasons that the employee left as long as the information they share is truthful. However, a lot of employers opt not to share the reasons that employees have left the company or to give any kind of references for any former or current employees.
While an employer may be able to fire you for just about any reason, it is in the employer’s interest to be consistent with all employees in order to avoid employment discrimination claims. In other words, as a best practice to avoid liability in employment cases, many lawyers advise employers to adopt a set of policies that are applied to all employees equally. Consistency is a very important element in understanding why employers may or may not choose to discuss the reasons a former employee left the company as you will see in a minute.
One thing that employers want to avoid is a disparagement lawsuit. “Disparagement” means saying something about a former employee that isn't true, that is slanderous, or is intended to hurt the former employee. In order to avoid the possibility of a disparagement lawsuit, many employers opt not to give any references at all. That’s right – no references for anyone. Instead, many employers choose to institute a policy of only confirming dates of employment and salary information.
But why not give good references to employees who leave on good terms? Why give no references at all?
Employers are cautious about disclosing information about the performance of former employees because of a combination two things: the need for consistent treatment of all employees to avoid employment discrimination claims and a desire to avoid risking disparagement lawsuits.
For example, if an employer discloses information related to a former employee’s poor performance the former employee in question could challenge that claim in court and claim that the employer is slandering them. Or that there was some sort of discrimination (whether there was or not). Even if an employer is perfectly justified in firing a poor performer it is likely that the employer’s attorney will advise them to keep quiet about the reasons for the firing. Why? Because, as you can see there is really no upside to the employer to disclose that information. Attorneys try to minimize risk for their clients. Since disclosing reasons for termination could be considered a risk it is likely that most employers will simply not do so.
On the other hand if an employer gives glowing references for its former employees who were star performers while staying mum about the poor performers, they run the risk that a poor performer could sue them for being inconsistent in their policies. Seem crazy? The “poor” performer’s argument goes like this: the “poor” performer claims that the real reason that the employer is refusing to give a reference is based on an unlawful discriminatory reason [race, religion, etc.], and that the employer always gives good references, for example, to ex-employees who are Catholic males under forty with Irish surnames regardless of the quality of their performance, and never gives references to Buddhist females over forty. Well the key to successfully avoiding or defending this type of claim is for employers to treat all employees equally. So, if they say great things when someone calls to check references for “good” performers and say nothing about the “bad” performers, they are not treating everyone equally. So many employers won’t give any kind of reference at all. If you happen to have been fired for poor performance this situation is certainly better for you than some alternatives.
So to wrap this up…Can a former employer disclose information about your job performance or the reasons you left the company to someone who calls to check your references? The short answer is: yes they can as long as they are truthful in what they disclose. The longer answer is that most employers choose to minimize the risk of certain types of lawsuits and therefore don’t disclose any performance related information about former employees or the reasons that employees have left the company.
If you are leaving a company for any reason ask your HR representative or the company’s legal counsel what the policy is about references for former employees. Finding out the company policy is the only way to know what you can expect in terms of a reference from a former employer.
Special thanks to Carole Jurkash for offering her thoughts on this important topic.
http://ultimate-resumes.blogspot.com/2007/05/can-my-old-employer-tell-potential.html
bchjetdrvr
King Of Swing
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Posts
- 96
A caveat to my statement above - "It's illegal" - It sort of is and sort of isn't.
ALL pilots take notice. Do your homework. BE PROACTIVE.
The following flow chart from the feds shows how Flops and other HR flight departments have to deal with PRIA and the requests from new employers.
You have to know this....YOU ARE IN THE LOOP. Make sure you are. What certain flight department HR people (eh em FLOPS), might not want you to know, is that you have to be in the loop and have the oppurtunity to dispute and have corrections made to anything in yor file. If you're not in the loop and kept out of the loop....er ILLEGAL.
Another "Go straight to Jail" action that gets HR in trouble is this. Disparity. A big no-no. IE 2 pilots are fired or leave. Both of their new employers come knocking and are doing the whole employment verification thing. If the previous company divulges more or less information inconsisent with regards to both those piltos...that's a big NO NO.
The hard part is knowing it. That 's why you have to be proactive. Stay in touch with your frends leaving. Again. Specificly ask the HR department what the policy and procedures are when dealing with employement verification.
Know the process!
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/overview/media/flowchart.rtf
ALL pilots take notice. Do your homework. BE PROACTIVE.
The following flow chart from the feds shows how Flops and other HR flight departments have to deal with PRIA and the requests from new employers.
You have to know this....YOU ARE IN THE LOOP. Make sure you are. What certain flight department HR people (eh em FLOPS), might not want you to know, is that you have to be in the loop and have the oppurtunity to dispute and have corrections made to anything in yor file. If you're not in the loop and kept out of the loop....er ILLEGAL.
Another "Go straight to Jail" action that gets HR in trouble is this. Disparity. A big no-no. IE 2 pilots are fired or leave. Both of their new employers come knocking and are doing the whole employment verification thing. If the previous company divulges more or less information inconsisent with regards to both those piltos...that's a big NO NO.
The hard part is knowing it. That 's why you have to be proactive. Stay in touch with your frends leaving. Again. Specificly ask the HR department what the policy and procedures are when dealing with employement verification.
Know the process!
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/overview/media/flowchart.rtf
"After the records have been received, the pilot/applicant may review them and submit a statement to correct any inaccuracies."
B19 Flyer
....
- Joined
- May 8, 2006
- Posts
- 1,595
Typical union crap... incomplete information twisted to make the union good and management bad.
If you were going to give a link, why the hell didn't you give the whole link? You didn't do it, because it would have shown every reader on this board that "Bob" was actually giving good advice and was doing something that the union didn't take the time to do.
Here is the whole and complete link:
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/forms_docs/
And furthermore, here is the actual DOT regulation:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...+(49+U.S.C.)+§+44703&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Now, what you want to do is open advisory circular 120-68D and read it all, but reading Chapter 2 is where the new language begins.
Not only is it legal, it is backed up by DOT regulations. Don't let the union tell you anything but the truth. Read this for yourself.
As a pilot, you want these regulations in place. It will weed out weak pilots LONG before ANY union advisory committee can get involved in the hiring process.
Oh, and by the way.. the union DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THIS INFORMATION!
These guys are now using DOT regulations and FAA interpretations to try and tell you how management will "interpret" PRIA.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
THE FAA IS THE ONE MAKING THE INTERPRETATION AND YOUR COMPANY IS ADVISING YOU OF IT.
If your union was on the ball, they would have done it first, but clearly, they aren't there to do help or inform, they are just there for the $$$.
bchjetdrvr
King Of Swing
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Posts
- 96
Hmmmmmm.so kinda like management (you), weeded out the Beechjet engine sucking guy. Didn't he lie to you guys about the incident and try to cover it up?(You were even thinking of making this tool a Checkairman)
hmmmm lets see, kinda like you weeded out the 2 girls that ran a new legacy into another of FLOPS legacy, i think one of those needed a new wing. (whats a wing cost these days..6 million).Wow 6 million thats a lot of green.
Hmmmmm another, how about our pilots that have failed more than 6 checkrides and are now copilots for life.
Hmmmmm 1 more, (i'm liking this) And how about the one pilot in this company that had to have his line changed 3 times due to copilots refusing to fly with him.
So are these "Weak" pilots B19? What do you think?
anybody else have good stories.
Good one B19 yea management is really doing there job on these cases, weeding out the week yea sure!
Vote B19 for President, because one dosent need a clue to be President.
Last edited:
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
