Frontier Pilots "What Do You Think?"

[HalinTexas]

Here's most of the facts. You decide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_Airlines

 

[USMC319]

Here's most of the facts. You decide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_Airlines

I feel for you ATA guys. I always liked your airline and it was a shame it went out of business, however, your dealings at SWA were at a much different part of the BK process than the phase Frontier is currently in.

Frontier chose to file BK due to the credit card processor demanding 100% holdback due to the failure of carriers such as ATA and Aloha. (In hindsight they would have probably had to file anyway last summer due to full exposure to $147/bbl oil). In any event, they have successfully reorganized and have become a super efficient operation with a cult-like following of loyal customers. They are profitable both from an operating standpoint and on a net basis. Being in bankruptcy (for them) at this point is expensive and provides no other benefit.

So at this juncture F9 is seeking a plan sponsor or "exit financing" (very much different than ther ATA scenerio). In a normal credit environment F9 would attract investment grade capital to achieve this goal, unfortunately for them, there isn't any. RAH has provided an offer to fund this exit plan. BK allows for better offers to be considered before approving the exit plan.

Now enters SWA. They (SWA) do want to eliminate a competitor and want to prevent a tough competitor from becoming very healthy with a strong balance sheet. They look at F9 and see themselves 20 years ago and it probably scares them a bit, so why not nip it in the bud and just buy them. Remember, they didn't buy ATA nor did they bid on them in a similar process. The law requires that if a company buys more than 50 percent of the company they are required to take the labor. Its all or nothing. If not, Frontier will exit and compete vigorously with the other offer that is on the table. So, I see how you ATA guys can draw parallels but there really aren't any in a true business sense.

 

[RJones]

This is all about market share, nothing more.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

After my last furlough I have never really worried about getting a captain bid anywhere and have resigned myself to being a professional gear monkey for the majority of my career.

I can relate to your past, brother. I've lived through the "hard knocks" of an aviation career.

However, to cast yourself as a "gear monkey" is a bit self flagellating. I would assume that at F9 you guys trade off legs? If so, who raises the landing gear when it is your leg ?

But, in the interest of fairness, we just had one of the Chicago Reps using our union publication, chastise the entire pilot group for voting down our TA. He also took the time to refer to FO's as "Co-stars".

"Gear monkey"..."Co-star"... Which one really is more professional ?

 

[mvedepo]

The law requires that if a company buys more than 50 percent of the company they are required to take the labor. Its all or nothing. If not, Frontier will exit and compete vigorously with the other offer that is on the table. So, I see how you ATA guys can draw parallels but there really aren't any in a true business sense.

So whats to prevent SWA from buying F9, operating them as a seperate entity and shut said separate entity down? Thats the goal here. Eliminating Frontier as a competitor. It really wouldn't make good business sense to staple 600 pay protected pilots to the bottom of the seniority list when then could just hire the F9 guys as new hires as the demand for pilots is needed?

 

[Whataburger]

Aren't Republic pilots also working on their seniority integration, etc, etc with Frontier? Yall's speculation is like watching a Private Pilot on CNN talk about an airline crash.

In othe news, I've enjoyed the Frontier crews that used to visit Mr. C's in Chicago. Good folks.

 

[starchkr]

So whats to prevent SWA from buying F9, operating them as a seperate entity and shut said separate entity down? Thats the goal here. Eliminating Frontier as a competitor. It really wouldn't make good business sense to staple 600 pay protected pilots to the bottom of the seniority list when then could just hire the F9 guys as new hires as the demand for pilots is needed?

That is a viable option that they possess. I don't think they would do that, but they have every right to in that case. SWA wants international flying, and they are prohibited from doing that, as of right now. They would gain the benefit of international ability by taking on F9 and running them if for nothing else but to Canada and Mexico and points south out of there numerous hubs. This would eliminate the WestJet and Volaris fiasco that has been fought by the pilots and would bring all "SWA" flying in-house. They did say they would replace the busses with 73's, now if they would retain Animal tails no-one knows, but it would look much better than painting them all purple.

 

[learherkjay]

Come on starchkr - it's CANYON BLUE - geesh...

 

[arjayeffo]

A Frontier Pilot

Some people here think that Allegheny+McCaskill will provide us with a fair and equitable integration under the law. I have far less than 100% faith that this is the case. As a 3 1/2 year guy, yet still in the bottom sixth of the entire list, even a pay protected staple reaps a whirlwind for me. And the prosepct of some sort of DEN base protection is even better.
I have nothing but the highest respect for the SWAPA pilots and understand that they will fight to protect what they have earned and created, just as we are trying to do. If only the outcome of all of this were up to us. We could all meet at Mr. C's and have this thing hashed out. But its not. Its up to Management and a judge named Drain. And they share the common primary goal of doing whats best for the bottom line. This, along with past Southwest acquisitions, is why my distrust of the deal is so strong, not any ounce of disrespect for fellow pilots. The most regrettable actions in our profession these days is the misdirected hostility of pilot to pilot anger. How often does any of the shyte that we put up with have roots in a decision a fellow pilot made?
The prospect of survivng these times and coming out on the other side as a part of an airline like Southwest seems almost too good to be true. And if it seems too good to be true, it almost always is. Absent some binding agreement betwen our unions this week, or some final 'pro-labor' slant by Drain as part of the deal, I think my days are seriously numbered.

 

[Porch]

Aren't Republic pilots also working on their seniority integration, etc, etc with Frontier? Yall's speculation is like watching a Private Pilot on CNN talk about an airline crash.

In othe news, I've enjoyed the Frontier crews that used to visit Mr. C's in Chicago. Good folks.

Oh yeah, Mr C's... where the drinks are heavy and the chicks are loose. Good times there for sure!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is all about market share, nothing more.

Correct... SWA doesn't need pilots... they want the routes... meaning the market...

 

[Speedtape]

Correct... SWA doesn't need pilots... they want the routes... meaning the market...

Your are partially right. With the amount of flying they would acquire, SWA would need additional staffing. Where that comes from is the question.

 

[Donald]

You're right. There isn't a single similarity is there. SWA isn't interested in eliminating competition in Denver.

I don't ever remember SWA offering to bid on ATA (as a whole company) or have labor group negotiations with them.

 

[Donald]

F9 guys, Plenty of SWA haters out there that are going to paint a picture of doom and gloom for you guys. I've always been impressed with your operation and look forward to working with you.

BTW, I know some of you guys may miss the automation of the bus, but all of our 700's now have the auto throttles turned on. By the time you transition, we should be using them for everything except autoland. Problem is were getting spoiled and dread climbing into a 300. But, we have started retiring and replacing them with new 700's.

 

[WNFO]

Southwest is going to operate A319/320's now? I would be surprised if they did. If they do not plan on operating the Bus then why would they take the F9 pilots? I have a lot of friends at F9 but I am afraid this isn't going to be pretty. ATA all over again.

No SWA is not going to operate A319/320's. But they do say as they retire 1 Airbus it will be replaced with a 737. I do not believe we are that over staffed on pilots, every month I am on reserve I fly my ass off! Just as much as a line holder if not more. Maybe fat on Capt's but not FO's.