I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not at all interested in "stealing" your job. I've been around long enough to know the rules of play as far as career progression. 99% of the folks in rj land are simply biding their time until a better job comes along. That doesn't mean we have to be happy with being treated like crap while here. There's no shame in trying to improve ones working conditions. Ideally, once real airlines start hiring again, most regionals will go away. Where are they going to find the warm bodies to fill the seats?
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Frontier Jumpseat/republic
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not at all interested in "stealing" your job. I've been around long enough to know the rules of play as far as career progression. 99% of the folks in rj land are simply biding their time until a better job comes along. That doesn't mean we have to be happy with being treated like crap while here. There's no shame in trying to improve ones working conditions. Ideally, once real airlines start hiring again, most regionals will go away. Where are they going to find the warm bodies to fill the seats?
Boy, are you on drugs? The things that you write are such a departure from reality that its hard to tell if you're just not very bright or if you merely have an irrational view of the industry and the world. Flying 162 seat mainline jets for a major airline would certainly be the ultimate "alter ego" to pull on a 50 seat fee for departure outfit. You're right.
Toobdrvr
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- Nov 28, 2005
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- 182
My boss man comment was sarcasm. BB built this behemoth of an operation yet insists on running it like some fly by night south Florida operation. Well ******************** that. There really is no excuse for anyone flying passengers for a living to have to put up with such ********************ty pay and work rules. Having the manager of scheduling telling reserve pilots that they have no contractual protections because "the company owns you" is bull********************. That kind of crap is just not acceptable. It never should have been acceptable. Quite frankly, the "if you don't like it, quit" bull******************** is getting quite old too. This place should have never grown into what it's become, but there is no excuse for not trying to improve things.
This is what I know. There is a legally binding seniority list. No one stole anything. RAH purchased Frontier and the IBT had the legal right to merge the lists. Frontier pilots are protected for 7 years. No Frontier pilot is losing there equipment or base. If I am still here in 7 years or whenever all F9 fo's have upgraded it is my legal right to bid an airbus CA position. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit the normal career progression. F9 is protected and RAH gets to pick up the leftovers when all of you get what you want. Relax and let it go.
Fortunately for the Frontier pilots, that scenerio will never play out. But just for the sake of arguement, don't you think it would be a bit of an overstatement to say that the F9 guys would be "protected"? After seven years any FO that hadn't upgraded yet would be stagnant for the rest of his/her career and the junior half of the Captain's list would suffer a huge downgrade in QOL once the RJ guys start bidding in ahead of them. That is why the company is selling its majority interest in Frontier thus making the IMSL useless. In the name of safety and sanity it's best for everybody involved.
If the new airbuses don't come then not every FO will upgrade in 7 years and some on the rah list will bump down native f9 pilots. Beyond allowing a staple of rah on the bottom of the seniority list the eischen award was about as good as everyone could get. I guess this all boils down to a philosophical argument. . . Was it ethically right for the IBT to insist on merging the seniority lists. It was certainly legal and those of us at rah knew we had to protect ourselves from a whipsaw hungry management. But the central question/problem that f9 pilots seem to have is that we have turned the natural career progression on its head by not letting rah management do what they wanted, resigning our positions and applying at f9 if that's what we really wanted. I really do understand that position, and I do think there is some validity to it, but our main motivation was not to take anyone's seat at f9, it was to protect our own seats. Fapa basically was asking us to give up our contractual right to merge and protect ourselves and leave them alone, thus keeping things the same at f9. I don't begrudge any f9 pilot for wanting us to stay out of their sandbox, but the potential consequences were just too high for us at rah to sit back and do nothing. I don't think the lists will be separated anytime soon. BB's attempt to sell off f9 is more of a head fake to get more concessions than a sincere attempt to offload the certificate. Even if f9 is sold, how do you separate a legally binding seniority list? I don't want to force u guys to stay here but I just don't see how you think it's going to magically dissolve if f9 is sold.
SizzleChest
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- 269
Don't worry we will take the Sizzle out and put Ice in front of Chest when we do go our own way. Keep dreaming RAH buddy that YOU will be in the seat of an F9 Airbus. Is that not what you wanted to get rid of us? Now your tune is changing because the inevitable is going to happen.
There are not many pilots that want the airbus. Most at rah want to keep career integrity of all f9 pilots as intact as possible, just not at the expense of the entire active rah pilot group. If we stay unified in time frontier pilots will see this to be the case. We are not the enemy. We are a valued ally. Give us a chance.
Grey Ghost
God Bless America!
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- Apr 10, 2007
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- 757
Are you into chicks????? :blush:
Hey Farscape, you sound like a fairly level-headed pilot. Your view of the situation is honorable but I think it is a bit naive to think the likes of Sizzle Chest and Grey Ghost wouldn't love to take the jobs and careers that the Frontier pilots built in a New York minute, given the opportunity. The flow-through that was presented to the IBT was the only workable solution to this mess, but that ship has sailed. F9 pilots have no choice but to go a different direction. Its a sad situation and a missed opportunity. Besides, can you imagine a native F9 pilot sharing a cockpit with an RJ guy that was never hired at F9 but is now his captain? It would be worse than flying with a scab.
It's possible it could play out that way. We are many years away from that being a reality though. If the airbuses and c series come it's a moot point. Then the only issue is the slow erosion of seniority of f9 pilots as senior rah guys bid over. Hopefully by then the relationships between the two groups will have reached a more mature stage and issues can be worked out in good faith. Anyway, I'm just a line pilot though and BB does not inform me of his plans so all I'm doing is guessing like everyone else. I will continue though to treat all f9 guys with respect and friendship and cultivate good will wherever I can.
Popeye0537
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Grey Ghost
God Bless America!
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What is even better is that you still have to deal with BB! Good luck on that lucrative contract. You and I can go round and round again.
ChinaClipper
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SizzleChest
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SizzleChest
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The song remains the same.... it's not about the seat. it's about what is legally binding and protecting contract provisions in their entirety. It's about the underhanded things FAPA and BB did prior to the rep. vote. It's about the sad hopes F9 pilots still cling to when hey are eroding around them. "We're not gonna pay dues!", but you're paying dues now.... things like that. And now you think Siegel will be good? Don't you see BBs fingers still in the pie at F9? not such a clear separation yet....
Sizzle when are you really going to get a grip on all this and let it go. Do you really think that you are going to come over to F9? Good luck to you on YOUR own!
ChinaClipper
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Do your homework....
Just looking for the 51% solution.....its closer than you think. REAL close! The players will surprise you..... No Majority ownership, no list.....remember those words....Looks like moving outta Uncle Brian's Plantation just got a little harder...Perhaps Personal Effort may get ya a promotion? Try EARNING your seat, lots of us have done it....except the Grey-haired clique at RAH....2 minutes in their presence is all ya need to understand why they will retire at RAH.....with that great IBT Airline Division Pension....DOHHH IBT pilots arent eligible, sorry....
Just looking for the 51% solution.....its closer than you think. REAL close! The players will surprise you..... No Majority ownership, no list.....remember those words....Looks like moving outta Uncle Brian's Plantation just got a little harder...Perhaps Personal Effort may get ya a promotion? Try EARNING your seat, lots of us have done it....except the Grey-haired clique at RAH....2 minutes in their presence is all ya need to understand why they will retire at RAH.....with that great IBT Airline Division Pension....DOHHH IBT pilots arent eligible, sorry....
getnverted
Active member
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- Nov 23, 2004
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- 25
Can we divorce ourselves from the rhetoric for just a minute or two? I am so sick of the in-fighting. Clearly management has won. We are brothers and sisters (not union wise, but profession wise) yet we are bickering amongst ourselves watching management laugh all the way to the bank. I don’t care who flies what equipment, who is better than the other, we are all in the same boat. Why can’t any of us remove the emotion and view this as an industry problem created by management and not a pilot problem of us vs. you?
Here’s my simple historical recap:
Frontier was a fun airline where everybody respected each other and they were honored to work there. They enjoyed the niche they had, enjoyed the employee/management relationship, were happy and proud to work there, and wanted to be left alone while they prospered.
Republic was a thriving airline in the regional industry, pilots were happy to work there because they were moving up quickly and moving out. The 2003 contract they were working under wasn’t the best, but it contained scope; which preemptively avoided a GoJets situation so it was a good call at the time. Republic made record profits year after year, but all was good because the airline was growing and the contract was being negotiated.
2008 came along, the industry went stagnant. Republic furloughed and downgraded, same as the rest of the regional industry. The majors stopped hiring. The Republic captain’s got stuck there, the FO’s stuck in the right seat. Frontier entered bankruptcy and once again went into survival mode. Neither pilot group thought of each other, they had their own concerns.
Bedford and Menke came to the rescue! Neither of them consulted either pilot group asking what should be done. Next thing we know Republic buys Frontier and the fighting begins. The pilots are pitted against each other…because of a management decision.
The Frontier pilots say leave us alone, we are happy, we will do our part to make our company succeed. The Republic pilots say wait a minute, our company has made money hand over fist for years and just spent it all on this airline…what about us?
Management lies to both sides and further pits the two against each other while singing the mantra “we are one.” Meanwhile the fighting continues, the pilot groups hate each other and we both lose. Frontier loses because they have to deal with the inadequacies of Republic management. Republic loses because the company has no cash after spending it on Frontier.
Where are we today? Frontier pilots appear to be “winning” because the company is separating the two. The separation isn’t very separate and will probably involve multiple lawsuits. Frontier pilots are just happy there is some sort of separation. Republic pilots are upset because the company is funneling money from one side to the other in order to make the Republic books look bad during contract negotiations. Management cow-tows to the pilot group they need at the time to continue their divide and conquer tactic. Republic pilots remember it was the profits made by their company that saved Frontier, yet the Frontier pilots hate them.
The end of this story has yet to be written. One thing is for sure, the pilots have no say in the outcome. Both sides will continue to fight each other for no good reason. There will continue to be jumpseat altercations because both sides have immature idiots. If only we weren’t so egotistic, maybe, just maybe, we could realize each other’s side and come to the conclusion that it is management and the economy that caused this problem and not the pilot groups.
If you have read this far I thank you and apologize for trying to interject reasoning instead of emotion…I know, it’s nowhere near as fun.
If you skimmed to the bottom: carry on, continue bashing each other and aiding Bryan’s wet dream, hell, he ought to have one or two in order to avoid more kids on the bench than he has on the court.
Here’s my simple historical recap:
Frontier was a fun airline where everybody respected each other and they were honored to work there. They enjoyed the niche they had, enjoyed the employee/management relationship, were happy and proud to work there, and wanted to be left alone while they prospered.
Republic was a thriving airline in the regional industry, pilots were happy to work there because they were moving up quickly and moving out. The 2003 contract they were working under wasn’t the best, but it contained scope; which preemptively avoided a GoJets situation so it was a good call at the time. Republic made record profits year after year, but all was good because the airline was growing and the contract was being negotiated.
2008 came along, the industry went stagnant. Republic furloughed and downgraded, same as the rest of the regional industry. The majors stopped hiring. The Republic captain’s got stuck there, the FO’s stuck in the right seat. Frontier entered bankruptcy and once again went into survival mode. Neither pilot group thought of each other, they had their own concerns.
Bedford and Menke came to the rescue! Neither of them consulted either pilot group asking what should be done. Next thing we know Republic buys Frontier and the fighting begins. The pilots are pitted against each other…because of a management decision.
The Frontier pilots say leave us alone, we are happy, we will do our part to make our company succeed. The Republic pilots say wait a minute, our company has made money hand over fist for years and just spent it all on this airline…what about us?
Management lies to both sides and further pits the two against each other while singing the mantra “we are one.” Meanwhile the fighting continues, the pilot groups hate each other and we both lose. Frontier loses because they have to deal with the inadequacies of Republic management. Republic loses because the company has no cash after spending it on Frontier.
Where are we today? Frontier pilots appear to be “winning” because the company is separating the two. The separation isn’t very separate and will probably involve multiple lawsuits. Frontier pilots are just happy there is some sort of separation. Republic pilots are upset because the company is funneling money from one side to the other in order to make the Republic books look bad during contract negotiations. Management cow-tows to the pilot group they need at the time to continue their divide and conquer tactic. Republic pilots remember it was the profits made by their company that saved Frontier, yet the Frontier pilots hate them.
The end of this story has yet to be written. One thing is for sure, the pilots have no say in the outcome. Both sides will continue to fight each other for no good reason. There will continue to be jumpseat altercations because both sides have immature idiots. If only we weren’t so egotistic, maybe, just maybe, we could realize each other’s side and come to the conclusion that it is management and the economy that caused this problem and not the pilot groups.
If you have read this far I thank you and apologize for trying to interject reasoning instead of emotion…I know, it’s nowhere near as fun.
If you skimmed to the bottom: carry on, continue bashing each other and aiding Bryan’s wet dream, hell, he ought to have one or two in order to avoid more kids on the bench than he has on the court.
Full of LUV
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- Feb 4, 2002
- Posts
- 1,021
What about Midwest Airlines?
freightrash
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- Jan 31, 2002
- Posts
- 137
good point! dont forget about it!
Captain Morgan
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- May 3, 2004
- Posts
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Oooh! ooohh! I know this one. Midwest Airlines had an unsustainable business model and after snubbing their noses at Airtran began a downward spiral of ridding themselves of aircraft starting with the DC-9's followed by the MD-80's and finally the 717's. The company was in shambles and Republic bought the ruins.
Jetjockey
Stay thirsty my friends
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2002
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- 1,492
Revisionist history at it's best. Half-truth if I ever read it.
Captain Morgan
Well-known member
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- May 3, 2004
- Posts
- 1,279
Then I want to hear it from you then. Put it out here for all of us to read. I want to hear you try and tell me that flying around a DC-9/MD-80 with 88 seats was going to last. I want to hear it out of your mouth how it's Republic, Frontier, and everybody else's fault that Midwest had a failed business plan. It lasted in the past few decades maybe because of private ownership, low gas prices, and the clientele that now has other options, thanks to internet booking sites etc. I agree that in airline pilot fantasy land Midwest is how every flight should be. Big leather seats, loud airplanes and great service. Guess what, this isnt fantasy land, I'm afraid those days are over.
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