Frontier files chapter 11

[Floatplane]

Iron City, that is why so many choose to stay private instead of going public.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Iron City, that is why so many choose to stay private instead of going public.

Totally understand that. The stock market is going through the same irresponsibile, unchecked free for all our legal system is going through. Both will come to an end, but will likely require a complete meltdown as a political catalyst for change first. When it finally happens, the pendulim will most likely swing way too far in the other direction, and the irresponsibile players will squeal the loudest of course. Oh well. The status quo is unsustainable so even severe change is inevitable and in many ways desireable.

 

[maxblast72]

Has management said they want any concessions from labor?

Does Frontier expect to be able to change lease payments on some airplanes during bankruptcy? I guess it might be kind of tough to get a reduction in lease payments on narrowbody Airbus as the worldwide market (outside the US) is pretty strong for newer fuel efficient airplanes.

 

[climb2slow]

As of right now, all communications from the company and the union are that our CBA will not be altered in this 11 process. I would like that believe that will stay the case, but as we all know, in 11, sometimes the judge makes decisions that the management may not have chosen.

 

[njcapt]

As of right now, all communications from the company and the union are that our CBA will not be altered in this 11 process. I would like that believe that will stay the case, but as we all know, in 11, sometimes the judge makes decisions that the management may not have chosen.

Hhhmmm. That's not really how it works. F9 management will probably make a motion to modify your CBA via a 1113e petition for short term relief, then really stick it to you with a 1113c. Given the composition of courts these days, the Judge will ultimately grant the motion - unless the F9 pilots negotiate something else with the company prior to the ruling. Expect them not to negotiate very vigorously, they know they hold all the cards.

I hate to break it to you, but management WILL stick it to you. There is absolutely no reason for them not to. In fact, they would be excoriated by the creditors committee if they left pilot wages and work rules on the table. If you think the pilot group would be willing to strike over the change to status quo, you can pretty much forget that, too. The ATA pilots choked on the strike vote when it was our turn to stand up, or we might have challenged the porking of our CBA. Good thing we didn't. When the NWA Flight Attendants declared a strike over changes to their status quo while under a 1113c motion the Bankruptcy Judge slapped an injunction on them, prohibiting them from self help.

Can't harm the 'entity' after all. You do not matter.

 

[climb2slow]

I'm fully aware of the proceedings and how things work. I was only stating that up to this point, the company has stated that they have no desire to touch our CBA. They maintain that this Chapter 11 is different than others, and they have no intention of working through the process on the backs of the employees. Do I believe them? No, but thats what they are saying. Anyhow, you are right, I don't think our pilot group would strike.

 

[CitationUltra]

I'm fully aware of the proceedings and how things work. I was only stating that up to this point, the company has stated that they have no desire to touch our CBA. They maintain that this Chapter 11 is different than others, and they have no intention of working through the process on the backs of the employees. Do I believe them? No, but thats what they are saying. Anyhow, you are right, I don't think our pilot group would strike.

How is this Chap. 11 "different that others?"

 

[climb2slow]

Beats me! I think what they mean is that our hand was forced by the Credit processor. We had over 130 million in cash plus another 35-40 million coming in from terminated aircraft. Had the processor not screwed our liquidity, we had (according to them) plenty of cash to continue for a while. In my opinion, the writing was on the wall though..you can't keep losing money with high oil prices and expect to not eventually end up in BK.

 

[Cardinal]

The FAPA contract isn't exactly choking the golden goose. Hourly rates are respectable, but fairly fluid work rules and a pilot group with minimal longevity mean F9 sees some of the lowest cockpit costs/block hour. Scope is downright generous. There's not much fat to trim, even assuming that was the plan.

I'm a "full pay to the last day" guy, but I fear such militancy is few and far between among those with an employee number less than 5000.

 

[CitationUltra]

Beats me! I think what they mean is that our hand was forced by the Credit processor. We had over 130 million in cash plus another 35-40 million coming in from terminated aircraft. Had the processor not screwed our liquidity, we had (according to them) plenty of cash to continue for a while. In my opinion, the writing was on the wall though..you can't keep losing money with high oil prices and expect to not eventually end up in BK.

Nearly all bankruptcies are "forced by the credit processor". Attempts to characterize this one as any different is just an attempt at "spin".

 

[StaySeated]

The company says they do not WANT to ask for concessions, but when they DO demand concessions they will act as if they have no choice.

It is all part of the effort to soften the resistance of labor. Befriend, then make someone else the enemy (evil bk counsel), say something along the lines of "we don't have a choice" and then they will just smirk to themselves knowing the inevitable.

If you think that this process will not end without an 1113c than you need to do a search of the last dozen or so BK's and try and find one that didn't result in the total dismantling of the CBA.

This is just another playbook that management relies upon. What disturbs me is that the entire playbook has less than one page and half dozen moves but we as a labor group (all professional pilots) always seem surprised.

 

[sshrae]

Nearly all bankruptcies are "forced by the credit processor". Attempts to characterize this one as any different is just an attempt at "spin".

Your not listening, what he is trying to say is that f9 went bankrupt because fd tried to hold back all the money from credit processing. the majority of bks are because of lack of money coming in and poor business models not because of credit companies holding mone back. this was not like aloha or ata or eos for that matter.

 

[CitationUltra]

Your not listening, what he is trying to say is that f9 went bankrupt because fd tried to hold back all the money from credit processing. the majority of bks are because of lack of money coming in and poor business models not because of credit companies holding mone back. this was not like aloha or ata or eos for that matter.

It's no different. They run short of money or their creditors start pressuring them. Or both.

Obviously you don't know much about the history of corporate bankruptcy proceedings.

 

[sshrae]

It's no different. They run short of money or their creditors start pressuring them. Or both.

Obviously you don't know much about the history of corporate bankruptcy proceedings.

actually i do. you need to do your homework i think before you write.

 

[sshrae]

to add to that, it is very different from these other airlines because f9 is still operating and the others unfortunately are not. i think you take joy in seeing this for some sick reason. thats sad.

 

[CitationUltra]

to add to that, it is very different from these other airlines because f9 is still operating and the others unfortunately are not. i think you take joy in seeing this for some sick reason. thats sad.

You seem to confuse facts and reality with "seeing joy in this." I did not express "joy" in anything that is happening, but you and some others on here seem to think that you can just wish the reality away--that Frontier is somehow "different" than any other airline or any other business.

 

[jetalc]

You seem to confuse facts and reality with "seeing joy in this." I did not express "joy" in anything that is happening, but you and some others on here seem to think that you can just wish the reality away--that Frontier is somehow "different" than any other airline or any other business.

I have had the same impression, based on the recklessness of your posts, for whatever reason. And, to clarify, the credit card PROCESSOR is NOT a creditor. They PROCESS, just like the name implies. It wasn't a creditor that was pressuring F9, it was a company that performs a service for Frontier who didn't want to be stuck holding the bill for tickets in case Frontier folded. Frontier is not gone (yet), and I, too, believe this is quite different from other bankruptcies. Your arrogance regarding this topic (and many other topics, I might add) forces people to respond to your posts as they have. Nobody likes someone who pretends to know it all, and you definitely come across as one of those people.

Frontier is still operating - we'll see what happens in the future. Even the almighty CitationUltra doesn't know.

 

[CitationUltra]

I have had the same impression, based on the recklessness of your posts, for whatever reason. And, to clarify, the credit card PROCESSOR is NOT a creditor. They PROCESS, just like the name implies. It wasn't a creditor that was pressuring F9, it was a company that performs a service for Frontier who didn't want to be stuck holding the bill for tickets in case Frontier folded. Frontier is not gone (yet), and I, too, believe this is quite different from other bankruptcies. Your arrogance regarding this topic (and many other topics, I might add) forces people to respond to your posts as they have. Nobody likes someone who pretends to know it all, and you definitely come across as one of those people.

Frontier is still operating - we'll see what happens in the future. Even the almighty CitationUltra doesn't know.

But a credit card PROCESSOR would be a CREDITOR if left holding the bag in a BANKRUPTCY.

Therefore, the pressure put on Frontier by this PROCESSOR is what ostensibly drove Frontier into BANKRUPTCY.

Consequently, and in regard to their status as a company operating in BANKRUPTCY, they are no different than any other company in the same position.

 

[AnimalTale]

Even the almighty CitationUltra doesn't know.

jetalc,

"almighty" don't give her that much credit. She likes to play the role of the "know it all". Hopefully, she is just playing because she would not have many friends if she really was like this. (No Fly List Candidate).

Dont let these Fools get to you. Go enjoy your life and avoid these "arrogant, stubborn & toxic" so called professional peers.

CCCCCCCCCCCCYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAA

 

[Shrek]

F9 keep your chin up - it aint over for a long shot

 

[Daytonaflyer]

You guys gotta pull through this. You're still my favorite airline to fly.

 

[StaySeated]

Considering the fact F9 pays my salary, they are definitely my favorite airline to fly. However, without third party financing, we are done.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Hey guys, at least your passengers like you. I've heard of folks offering to pay cash out of DEN to keep the CC companies out of the loop.

 

[On Your Six]

What's the latest with F9 beyond Chap 11? Anything new?

 

[Fubijaakr]

However, without third party financing, we are done.

Sad, but true. And no one's rushing to give you any money. Too bad. F9 was a good outfit.

 

[hockeypilot44]

If Frontier does end up going out of business, any idea how long it has left?

 

[spinproof]

With Oil @ $125 and going up it doesn't look good for anyone. I really hate to say this but congress needs to step in and approve a fuel surcharge(transportation emergency). Make everyone participate. Short term it will hold things together for awhile.
Long term....... Pray,often and long!!!!

 

[spitfire1500]

Right now anyone on the bottom half of any seniority list (and at some airlines the whole list) needs to be looking on a fallback career. If you have a degree in something outside flying I'd be printing up resumes geared to that career change now...if not I would start taking classes online and grab some student loans. I just took some online classes to get a Funeral Director/Embalmer license I had gotten 15 years ago active again. Right now a lot of families flying over the summer bought their tickets before the economy started really taking a dump and gas started going through the roof!! On my block (about 7 houses in a middle class neighborhood.. homes about 190K in SC) when we got together a few nights ago only 1 family was traveling this summer and they bought their tickets last Nov as a Christmas gift. 3 families on my street are at companies greatly downsizing and worried about even having a job. The last thing they or their companies are going to do is buy airline tickets. Come Sept at the end of summer season there will be massive furloughs everywhere.
Oil prices are not going to drop, sure the US has now cut down by about 2% what we are using...in the past there would be a drop in price, but unlike before there is now a demand in India and China that was never there before, production can't keep up with demand. The worst of it is if oil goes up the cost of everything goes up...except what you are paid. Anyone at an airline that says we have the money to ride out the storm and are in better shape than the other guys has their head stuck in the sand.
Right now my company is doing a lot of flying cargo for the military and for Boeing. But come Christmas if consumers arent buying, companies wont be shipping and we'll start getting hit with big furloughs. Sorry for the doom and gloom guys, but I feel it is best to prepare for the worst instead of sitting around expecting the best.

 

[AA717driver]

When it comes to the airline business, you can never be TOO cynical... Good luck to all! TC

 

[FBN0223]

My bet? Frontier survives. UAL stumbles system wide and out of DEN with the merger and Tilton. WN expands but doesn't shut out the home town airline being that there will be enough gaps in the WN service for F9 to do a decent business.