Frontier Airlines

[Shrek]

@ Grey Ghost:

If you consider me arrogant because I don't like losing 9+ years of seniority to a half-dozen NEW HIRES, then I guess I'm arrogant.

If you consider me arrogant because I'm a bit disappointed after losing 9+ years of seniority (1000+ numbers on the seniority list) to a KID who was BORN when I was a sophomore in high school, and who was working on his instrument rating when I quit my second Part 121 carrier to start at the BOTTOM of the Frontier seniority list, then I guess I'm arrogant.

Yep. Guilty as charged.

OpenClimb you arrogant bastard you !

 

[Grey Ghost]

@ Grey Ghost:

If you consider me arrogant because I don't like losing 9+ years of seniority to a half-dozen NEW HIRES, then I guess I'm arrogant.

If you consider me arrogant because I'm a bit disappointed after losing 9+ years of seniority (1000+ numbers on the seniority list) to a KID who was BORN when I was a sophomore in high school, and who was working on his instrument rating when I quit my second Part 121 carrier to start at the BOTTOM of the Frontier seniority list, then I guess I'm arrogant.

Yep. Guilty as charged.

Please explain how you were screwed and Midwest was'nt? New Hires???? Boo Hoo, Your 9+ years does'nt even touch their 15+ years at Midwest? They have to come back at 2nd year Regional FO pay, come on!!! Some of You guys bitch and moan about how you were "screwed", what about these Midwest guys? This was'nt the first bankruptcy that F9 has been through. You should've pulled the ejection handle years ago. At least 1/4th of your pilot group only spent about a year and a half at Great Lakes and walked onto a 40 airplane operator with a bleak future at best, then have the nerve to say you were "screwed"??? You're delusional, come back to planet earth one of these days!

 

[Little Mojito]

Grey Ghost,

So, how bad have you screwed up that after 15 years at Midwest, you HAVE to work for a regional making peanuts? Are you kidding me?! Sounds like your bitterness comes from the fact that you failed to plan for the worse. You thought your job was secure and when reality came knocking, you try to blame your lack of preparation on everyone but yourself. I have been at Frontier for 10+ years and have been planning on it failing ever since. If Frontier goes away tomorrow, I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't have to go work for some sh!tty regional making $20,000 a year and crying about how I've been screwed. As a matter of fact, the way things are going with my "back up plan", I almost feel like things would be better for me if Frontier does go away--it would force me to focus even more on that. But hey, you got screwed (by your own lack of planning), so you have the right to screw others. Geesh, I would have thought you were old enough to know better.

 

[Grey Ghost]

Grey Ghost,

So, how bad have you screwed up that after 15 years at Midwest, you HAVE to work for a regional making peanuts? Are you kidding me?! Sounds like your bitterness comes from the fact that you failed to plan for the worse. You thought your job was secure and when reality came knocking, you try to blame your lack of preparation on everyone but yourself. I have been at Frontier for 10+ years and have been planning on it failing ever since. If Frontier goes away tomorrow, I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't have to go work for some sh!tty regional making $20,000 a year and crying about how I've been screwed. As a matter of fact, the way things are going with my "back up plan", I almost feel like things would be better for me if Frontier does go away--it would force me to focus even more on that. But hey, you got screwed (by your own lack of planning), so you have the right to screw others. Geesh, I would have thought you were old enough to know better.

=

The few remaining Midwest guys that i know are all great people! They were raised with morals, class, and a sense of decency! Let's be honest, you only ended up at frontier because United would'nt call you back! How are you going to stay 121 current when your airline goes under? you are going to do what you have to do. Don't sit here and act like frontier is now the most desireable or stable place to work at, you are just as vulnerable as any other airline out there and you are about to find that out the hard way! Bedford style!!!!! Maybe the few Midwest guys that stuck around don't have the benefit of Daddy's trust fund to fall back on like you apparently do? You don't know anyone's situation but your own so don't sit here and judge people you don't even know. We can't all rely on Mommy and Daddy to bail us out all the time, apparently, you can! These guys are doing what is best for their own situation. I'm really sure they want to stick around and fly with some toolbag like yourself, by choice! You sound like a complete fool making statements about these guys. Just make sure that your nonexistent union does'nt screw up the integration for the third time!

 

[Bolo]

Grey Ghost your ratings says: " I'm a jack of all all trades but a master at none."
You are very wrong on this account, you are a master at being a D-bag!

 

[Grey Ghost]

I want to get this straight, you guys think that the Midwest guys came in and "stole" your 9+ years of seniority in the SLI. This was decided by a third party that doesn't give a ******************** about anyone's feelings involved. Remember when Southwest took a look at the books and FAPA screwed up the integration there? You were willing to bypass all those Southwest guys and all their seniority? How is that any different? FAPA, like a bull in a china shop!

 

[StaySeated]

I think we need a history review here...

First and foremost, the YX gents were welcomed with open arms by the Frontier Pilots. We didn't have anything to do with who was hired back then and we won't really have anything to do with who is hired in the future, but we did indeed welcome them. Take this excerpt from a FAPA letter to the membership in March of 2011..

"We also expect RAH to reach out to furloughed Midwest pilots to offer them positions. RAH management and FAPA are very pleased that we have an opportunity to bring some of these very experienced, professional and highly qualified pilots back on property ? and hopefully home to MKE. We do not know how many Midwest pilots will take the positions, but please join us in extended a very warm welcome to those who do."

That doesn't sound very arrogant to me but I may be a little biased.

Now, regarding the "screwing". The YX Merger Committee may be the real culprits here but I will let everyone else decide.

Here is a piece from the Midwest Custodian (and Former YX MEC member TF) to the other labor groups involved (IBT, UTU and FAPA) prior to the hiring of any YX pilots..

" Given the extremely unlikely but at least theoretical possibility that a new hire F9 pilot could be in a position that could be manipulated to an unfair advantage, I added clarifying language that would prevent that from happening. I honestly cannot see how that could happen but I wanted to cover all the bases."

Here is the language from his letter that was sent in June 2010 to Ron H at RAH...

"The pilot will not automatically be able to exercise his integrated seniority upon the arbitrator?s award becoming effective. The exercise of the pilot?s integrated (supposedly higher) seniority number will be dependent on his ability to return to active service through the operation of the award, either through recall or by any earlier right to return that may be provided by the award. In brief, a pilot hired under these terms will not simply "convert" to a higher seniority placement upon implementation of the seniority integration award. "

and

"The pilot will be considered a new-hire F9 pilot subject to all terms and conditions of the F9/FAPA agreement. "

So, from the eyes of the Frontier pilots (especially the MKE/CHI based FO's) the YX gents claimed they would act in one specific manner prior to be hired only to act completely 180 degrees differently after they were hired. I personally received a comment from an IBT ExCo member (prior to the E-Board) explaining how the YX guys "pulled a huge coup over the Frontier guys".

At the very least the YX guys are hypocrites. I don't think it is a stretch at all to claim they screwed over the Frontier guys when you compare their initial claims with their actions. Unfortunately they probably have poisoned the water to such an extent that the future hiring of YX guys may not happen. But, as you claim Grey, who would want to come little ole Frontier anyway?

 

[Little Mojito]

=

The few remaining Midwest guys that i know are all great people! They were raised with morals, class, and a sense of decency! Let's be honest, you only ended up at frontier because United would'nt call you back! How are you going to stay 121 current when your airline goes under? you are going to do what you have to do. Don't sit here and act like frontier is now the most desireable or stable place to work at, you are just as vulnerable as any other airline out there and you are about to find that out the hard way! Bedford style!!!!! Maybe the few Midwest guys that stuck around don't have the benefit of Daddy's trust fund to fall back on like you apparently do? You don't know anyone's situation but your own so don't sit here and judge people you don't even know. We can't all rely on Mommy and Daddy to bail us out all the time, apparently, you can! These guys are doing what is best for their own situation. I'm really sure they want to stick around and fly with some toolbag like yourself, by choice! You sound like a complete fool making statements about these guys. Just make sure that your nonexistent union does'nt screw up the integration for the third time!

Wow! I haven't seen such lack of comprehension in a long, long time. Impressive, even for FI. You addressed many things I never said, let alone implied. "Don't sit here and act like frontier is now the most desirable or stable place..." Holy cow! Are you really that dense? I pretty much said Frontier has never been stable and that's why I PLANNED FOR THE WORSE--and continue to do so! You're right, I don't know everyone's situation, but I have seen many pilots upgrade and instantly go buy a bigger house, get a fancy car, upgrade the wife's t!ts, etc. I'm willing to bet that most Midwest pilots were like most other pilots in that regard. If you choose to live your life that way, fine. But please lay off the whole "we are a very senior pilot group and we're the ones that got screwed" rhetoric. The fact that the Midwest pilot group was senior SHOULD mean they were in a much better position to survive a life changing event like Midwest's demise. Perfect example: an FO at Frontier went out and bought a $800,000+ home within a month of upgrade. Guess what happened less than 6 months later? Bankruptcy. Downgrades. He lost the home and blamed everyone but himself. It was his poor decision making that was the cause, and yet he blamed Frontier. That's what I'm talking about. Not judging. Just stating a fact. Take responsibility for yourself.

 

[dlzav8tr]

not to mention that fapa's imsl proposal placed 60 mid-west guys in with our fos. Even though they brought zero aircraft to the table. Esentially throwing us (f9 fos) under the bus.

 

[Grey Ghost]

not to mention that fapa's imsl proposal placed 60 mid-west guys in with our fos. Even though they brought zero aircraft to the table. Esentially throwing us (f9 fos) under the bus.

Yeah, but they did bring the cookies!!!!

 

[airplane wizard]

Another airline I won't fly on if Frontier becomes another Spirit or Allegiant.

Too cheap!

 

[SAABaroowski]

^ the dumbest fuggging thing I ever read

 

[Grey Ghost]

Another airline I won't fly on if Frontier becomes another Spirit or Allegiant.

Too cheap!

"Becomes another Spirit or Allegiant"? Come on, man! Frontier couldn't hold their jocks! They actually make money and not on the backs of their sister companies!

 

[StaySeated]

Grey you took the time to change your avatar but you haven't responded to my post regarding the Midwest words vs the Midwest actions.

Please chime in about our arrogance now that you actually know a small percentage of the facts surrounding the situation.

 

[Megalops]

He knows, it's just more convenient to ignore facts and truth to shade an argument.
An old man flying a 190 for Bedford, I'd be pissed also, But at the appropriate people.

 

[Grey Ghost]

You guys are delusional! BB has been telling you that he's been "selling" you for 3 damn years? Where are all the takers on this profitable F9 operation? He only tells you that so that you don't shut down the daily operations. The only reason you show any profit is by him "cooking the books" and you know it! $9 dollar tickets? Are you stupid? How is that growth in denver coming along? You guys have shrunk since day 1 that BB took over. You used to be the only ones on the A concourse, now look at you? Who is on Denver's "hometown airline's" concourse now? Let's see, Southwest, american, alaska, Jet blue, Sun Country, Air tran.... Sounds like Southwest will force Delta over there also, soon enough? If you're not growing, you're shrinking! Just keep pumping out those resumes to United, maybe they will call you one of these days? BTW, your hometown is Indianapolis now, not Denver!! Tell your aisle donkey's that! They keep doing PA's about Denver's hometown airline, the truth is your hometown is now Indianapolis. Also, as one of your own captain's told me, i bet they pull the plug on this defunct operation after summer. They are just trying to recoup whatever money they can before dumping the whole operation and calling it a loss. I guess we will just wait and see?

 

[OpenClimb]

So what's your point, Mr. Ghost?

Are you saying we all made the wrong career choice? Very little argument here.

Are you saying that Frontier's continued existence is uncertain? Very little argument here.

Are you saying that Bedford isn't a great guy to work for? Very little argument here.

Are you saying that airline management frequently makes promises to pilot groups that they do not keep and probably had no intention of keeping? No argument here.

Are you saying that Bedford shafted the Midwest pilot group? No argument here.

So putting aside your pathological anger for just a minute, what point is it you're arguing about, again?

Does it satisfy you that an F9 pilot (me) came out and admitted the above points? If this is what you're shooting for, I would estimate that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the pilots I work with would readily admit the points I referenced, above. I hope this makes you feel better.

Perhaps you should consider decaf...

 

[Grey Ghost]

So what's your point, Mr. Ghost?

Are you saying we all made the wrong career choice? Very little argument here.

Are you saying that Frontier's continued existence is uncertain? Very little argument here.

Are you saying that Bedford isn't a great guy to work for? Very little argument here.

Are you saying that airline management frequently makes promises to pilot groups that they do not keep and probably had no intention of keeping? No argument here.

Are you saying that Bedford shafted the Midwest pilot group? No argument here.

So putting aside your pathological anger for just a minute, what point is it you're arguing about, again?

Does it satisfy you that an F9 pilot (me) came out and admitted the above points? If this is what you're shooting for, I would estimate that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the pilots I work with would readily admit the points I referenced, above. I hope this makes you feel better.

Perhaps you should consider decaf...

Thank you! You are by far one of the most level headed F9 pilots that I've come across! This is refreshing to hear! Have a lovely evening! Come on, are you sure that you work for Frontier????

 

[SAABaroowski]

I actually think ( and hope) F9 has a brighter future ahead

 

[BUDDHA145]

I actually think ( and hope) F9 has a brighter future ahead

I agree, it doesn't mater if is F9 alone or as Spirit or Allegiant.


Tapatalk sucks major AZZZZZ!! Don't get it....