Frontier Airlines

[chqflyer]

What were the other options again?

FAPA, aka RPC, or the teamsters. We didn't feel that the F9 union would have our interests at heart just as the F9 pilots knew the teamsters would not have their interests at heart either. There really was no reasonable way that this could've ever worked out. Republic is not now, nor will it ever be a "career" airline. 95% of the pilots here know that and will be gone once they hit 1001 hours of turbine PIC.

 

[Flying Illini]

FAPA, aka RPC, or the teamsters. We didn't feel that the F9 union would have our interests at heart just as the F9 pilots knew the teamsters would not have their interests at heart either. There really was no reasonable way that this could've ever worked out. Republic is not now, nor will it ever be a "career" airline. 95% of the pilots here know that and will be gone once they hit 1001 hours of turbine PIC.

Oh I know, I was just illustrating why the IBT won so handily compared to the "competition." I left shortly after I voted to strike and well short of the 1000 121 TPIC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[chqflyer]

Oh I know, I was just illustrating why the IBT won so handily compared to the "competition." I left shortly after I voted to strike and well short of the 1000 121 TPIC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Congratulations on your escape from the asylum! ??

 

[StaySeated]

FAPA, aka RPC, or the teamsters. We didn't feel that the F9 union would have our interests at heart just as the F9 pilots knew the teamsters would not have their interests at heart either. There really was no reasonable way that this could've ever worked out. Republic is not now, nor will it ever be a "career" airline. 95% of the pilots here know that and will be gone once they hit 1001 hours of turbine PIC.

The RPC was a last ditch attempt by the Frontier pilots to maintain some form of actual representation.

We approached the IBT and asked for our own Local. They initially said "maybe" but then realized they had a 2000 - 700 advantage in the voters so they eventually said "no way".

We approaced ALPA and they saw Airways-America West all over again and politely declined.

RPC was the exact structure we showed the IBT. One Joint Council with two Locals. Each Local keeps everything they generate but the Joint provides admin and representation including outside consultants like Oliver Wyman and Faegre Benson. I can only guess that you guys would have a CBA today if you employed true outside professionals vs IBT Golden Goose Chokers (no disrespect to Capt D, I admire what he has accomplished over his careers).

Any whoo, here we are.

 

[SAABaroowski]

When is the F9 contract amendable?

 

[CrownandCoke]

The RPC was a last ditch attempt by the Frontier pilots to maintain some form of actual representation.

We approached the IBT and asked for our own Local. They initially said "maybe" but then realized they had a 2000 - 700 advantage in the voters so they eventually said "no way".

We approaced ALPA and they saw Airways-America West all over again and politely declined.

RPC was the exact structure we showed the IBT. One Joint Council with two Locals. Each Local keeps everything they generate but the Joint provides admin and representation including outside consultants like Oliver Wyman and Faegre Benson. I can only guess that you guys would have a CBA today if you employed true outside professionals vs IBT Golden Goose Chokers (no disrespect to Capt D, I admire what he has accomplished over his careers).

Any whoo, here we are.

RPC would have been much better for the Republic guys, but they are blind. Of course, they work for sub-standard wages and take the abuse from management on a daily basis, so really, nothing less should be expected

 

[StaySeated]

RPC would have been much better for the Republic guys, but they are blind. Of course, they work for sub-standard wages and take the abuse from management on a daily basis, so really, nothing less should be expected

I believe we could have done a much better job working together. Honestly anything is better than what the IBT has provided them but I don't think it is fair to call them blind. They have been led down a road to failure by an E-Board that has failed in every metric.

 

[saab fixr]

the question has to be are the F9 pilots going to be any better off with the investment group?

 

[chqflyer]

The RPC was a last ditch attempt by the Frontier pilots to maintain some form of actual representation.

Republic pilots were still reeling from the scandals of the previous local. FAPA could have easily swept the election. The RPC thing was just downright sketchy. Seriously, anonymous letters in our v-files and anonymous phone calls to vote RPC, some phantom group no one knew anything about, was not the way to go. So we basically had two ******************** sandwiches to choose from. Eat one or starve.

 

[Flying Illini]

Republic pilots were still reeling from the scandals of the previous local. FAPA could have easily swept the election. The RPC thing was just downright sketchy. Seriously, anonymous letters in our v-files and anonymous phone calls to vote RPC, some phantom group no one knew anything about, was not the way to go. So we basically had two ******************** sandwiches to choose from. Eat one or starve.

That's a huge understatement. My vote (and many others) was FAPA's to lose which they did in spectacular fashion. It was a head scratcher how and why that was the best effort that they could come up with (talking about the RPC). Seriously, the Teamsters delivered this pilot group to them on a silver platter. Honestly though, I truly believe that even with FAPA as the representation that they would be no closer to a TA than they are today under the IBT. FAPA saw an entirely different side of BB and WH and if they had been installed as the representation I think mgmts true colors would have become very apparent.

 

[SAABaroowski]

the question has to be are the F9 pilots going to be any better off with the investment group?

Absolutely

 

[StaySeated]

the question has to be are the F9 pilots going to be any better off with the investment group?

We have no idea what we are going to get with the investor, but we know exactly what we have with the IBT. The short answer at this point is "yes" we are better off with the investor due to the fact that ANYTHING is better than the IBT. Especially this Local.

 

[johnsonrod]

Where will the Republic C-Series orders go????

What's the likelihood Republic will also sell the Bombardier C-Series positions along with the airline? If Frontier is to become another ULCC, won't it need more airplanes than Frontier currently has on order (NEOs)? Of course 2 aircraft types would complicate things a bit...

 

[StaySeated]

What's the likelihood Republic will also sell the Bombardier C-Series positions along with the airline? If Frontier is to become another ULCC, won't it need more airplanes than Frontier currently has on order (NEOs)? Of course 2 aircraft types would complicate things a bit...

Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if the C-Series is cancelled outright. The concept is basically dependent on a large Air Canada order later this year. They only have 170 firm orders at this point, after more than two years of marketing.

I am also unsure if RAH can operate the C-series (the version they ordered) as I believe it exceeds every scope limit found at the various legacy carriers.

 

[johnsonrod]

Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if the C-Series is cancelled outright. The concept is basically dependent on a large Air Canada order later this year. They only have 170 firm orders at this point, after more than two years of marketing.

I am also unsure if RAH can operate the C-series (the version they ordered) as I believe it exceeds every scope limit found at the various legacy carriers.

I believe (but could be wrong) that the C-series was ordered originally with Frontier in mind because of its size. Frontier could probably use the bigger CS300 that can seat 150-160 pax. With the "projected" fuel burn savings, it could become a game changer - if Bombarier can actually get it off the ground for testing (delayed again).

I agree that Republic cannot use either the smaller CS100 or the CS300 due to scope clauses. I suppose they could reduce seats in the smaller version to the scope limit if they wanted to...

 

[Flydaplane]

And where does all this leave the lowly Midwest pilots who were (integrated/given the finger) in the Frontier/Midwest merger (if you can call it that). They should at least get preferential interviews at New Frontier (if they hire).

 

[doz4dllrs]

F that. We hire 12 next month I hear. Last time we hired eight of them they petitioned Eischen for their IMSL position. If the company pulls that again their will be a mass exodus of FO's (and some captains). We already are getting a surge of pria requests and I doubt the company wants to do anything to encourage more of that.

 

[Cornelius]

I just hope those Midwest guys lose their seniority if we do separate. If not, the company may face some lawsuits from us Jr Biatches.

 

[Grey Ghost]

The arrogance of the fronier pilot group represented on this board is second to none!

 

[OpenClimb]

@ Grey Ghost:

If you consider me arrogant because I don't like losing 9+ years of seniority to a half-dozen NEW HIRES, then I guess I'm arrogant.

If you consider me arrogant because I'm a bit disappointed after losing 9+ years of seniority (1000+ numbers on the seniority list) to a KID who was BORN when I was a sophomore in high school, and who was working on his instrument rating when I quit my second Part 121 carrier to start at the BOTTOM of the Frontier seniority list, then I guess I'm arrogant.

Yep. Guilty as charged.

 

[Shrek]

@ Grey Ghost:

If you consider me arrogant because I don't like losing 9+ years of seniority to a half-dozen NEW HIRES, then I guess I'm arrogant.

If you consider me arrogant because I'm a bit disappointed after losing 9+ years of seniority (1000+ numbers on the seniority list) to a KID who was BORN when I was a sophomore in high school, and who was working on his instrument rating when I quit my second Part 121 carrier to start at the BOTTOM of the Frontier seniority list, then I guess I'm arrogant.

Yep. Guilty as charged.

OpenClimb you arrogant bastard you !

 

[Grey Ghost]

@ Grey Ghost:

If you consider me arrogant because I don't like losing 9+ years of seniority to a half-dozen NEW HIRES, then I guess I'm arrogant.

If you consider me arrogant because I'm a bit disappointed after losing 9+ years of seniority (1000+ numbers on the seniority list) to a KID who was BORN when I was a sophomore in high school, and who was working on his instrument rating when I quit my second Part 121 carrier to start at the BOTTOM of the Frontier seniority list, then I guess I'm arrogant.

Yep. Guilty as charged.

Please explain how you were screwed and Midwest was'nt? New Hires???? Boo Hoo, Your 9+ years does'nt even touch their 15+ years at Midwest? They have to come back at 2nd year Regional FO pay, come on!!! Some of You guys bitch and moan about how you were "screwed", what about these Midwest guys? This was'nt the first bankruptcy that F9 has been through. You should've pulled the ejection handle years ago. At least 1/4th of your pilot group only spent about a year and a half at Great Lakes and walked onto a 40 airplane operator with a bleak future at best, then have the nerve to say you were "screwed"??? You're delusional, come back to planet earth one of these days!

 

[Little Mojito]

Grey Ghost,

So, how bad have you screwed up that after 15 years at Midwest, you HAVE to work for a regional making peanuts? Are you kidding me?! Sounds like your bitterness comes from the fact that you failed to plan for the worse. You thought your job was secure and when reality came knocking, you try to blame your lack of preparation on everyone but yourself. I have been at Frontier for 10+ years and have been planning on it failing ever since. If Frontier goes away tomorrow, I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't have to go work for some sh!tty regional making $20,000 a year and crying about how I've been screwed. As a matter of fact, the way things are going with my "back up plan", I almost feel like things would be better for me if Frontier does go away--it would force me to focus even more on that. But hey, you got screwed (by your own lack of planning), so you have the right to screw others. Geesh, I would have thought you were old enough to know better.

 

[Grey Ghost]

Grey Ghost,

So, how bad have you screwed up that after 15 years at Midwest, you HAVE to work for a regional making peanuts? Are you kidding me?! Sounds like your bitterness comes from the fact that you failed to plan for the worse. You thought your job was secure and when reality came knocking, you try to blame your lack of preparation on everyone but yourself. I have been at Frontier for 10+ years and have been planning on it failing ever since. If Frontier goes away tomorrow, I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't have to go work for some sh!tty regional making $20,000 a year and crying about how I've been screwed. As a matter of fact, the way things are going with my "back up plan", I almost feel like things would be better for me if Frontier does go away--it would force me to focus even more on that. But hey, you got screwed (by your own lack of planning), so you have the right to screw others. Geesh, I would have thought you were old enough to know better.

=

The few remaining Midwest guys that i know are all great people! They were raised with morals, class, and a sense of decency! Let's be honest, you only ended up at frontier because United would'nt call you back! How are you going to stay 121 current when your airline goes under? you are going to do what you have to do. Don't sit here and act like frontier is now the most desireable or stable place to work at, you are just as vulnerable as any other airline out there and you are about to find that out the hard way! Bedford style!!!!! Maybe the few Midwest guys that stuck around don't have the benefit of Daddy's trust fund to fall back on like you apparently do? You don't know anyone's situation but your own so don't sit here and judge people you don't even know. We can't all rely on Mommy and Daddy to bail us out all the time, apparently, you can! These guys are doing what is best for their own situation. I'm really sure they want to stick around and fly with some toolbag like yourself, by choice! You sound like a complete fool making statements about these guys. Just make sure that your nonexistent union does'nt screw up the integration for the third time!

 

[Bolo]

Grey Ghost your ratings says: " I'm a jack of all all trades but a master at none."
You are very wrong on this account, you are a master at being a D-bag!

 

[Grey Ghost]

I want to get this straight, you guys think that the Midwest guys came in and "stole" your 9+ years of seniority in the SLI. This was decided by a third party that doesn't give a ******************** about anyone's feelings involved. Remember when Southwest took a look at the books and FAPA screwed up the integration there? You were willing to bypass all those Southwest guys and all their seniority? How is that any different? FAPA, like a bull in a china shop!

 

[StaySeated]

I think we need a history review here...

First and foremost, the YX gents were welcomed with open arms by the Frontier Pilots. We didn't have anything to do with who was hired back then and we won't really have anything to do with who is hired in the future, but we did indeed welcome them. Take this excerpt from a FAPA letter to the membership in March of 2011..

"We also expect RAH to reach out to furloughed Midwest pilots to offer them positions. RAH management and FAPA are very pleased that we have an opportunity to bring some of these very experienced, professional and highly qualified pilots back on property ? and hopefully home to MKE. We do not know how many Midwest pilots will take the positions, but please join us in extended a very warm welcome to those who do."

That doesn't sound very arrogant to me but I may be a little biased.

Now, regarding the "screwing". The YX Merger Committee may be the real culprits here but I will let everyone else decide.

Here is a piece from the Midwest Custodian (and Former YX MEC member TF) to the other labor groups involved (IBT, UTU and FAPA) prior to the hiring of any YX pilots..

" Given the extremely unlikely but at least theoretical possibility that a new hire F9 pilot could be in a position that could be manipulated to an unfair advantage, I added clarifying language that would prevent that from happening. I honestly cannot see how that could happen but I wanted to cover all the bases."

Here is the language from his letter that was sent in June 2010 to Ron H at RAH...

"The pilot will not automatically be able to exercise his integrated seniority upon the arbitrator?s award becoming effective. The exercise of the pilot?s integrated (supposedly higher) seniority number will be dependent on his ability to return to active service through the operation of the award, either through recall or by any earlier right to return that may be provided by the award. In brief, a pilot hired under these terms will not simply "convert" to a higher seniority placement upon implementation of the seniority integration award. "

and

"The pilot will be considered a new-hire F9 pilot subject to all terms and conditions of the F9/FAPA agreement. "

So, from the eyes of the Frontier pilots (especially the MKE/CHI based FO's) the YX gents claimed they would act in one specific manner prior to be hired only to act completely 180 degrees differently after they were hired. I personally received a comment from an IBT ExCo member (prior to the E-Board) explaining how the YX guys "pulled a huge coup over the Frontier guys".

At the very least the YX guys are hypocrites. I don't think it is a stretch at all to claim they screwed over the Frontier guys when you compare their initial claims with their actions. Unfortunately they probably have poisoned the water to such an extent that the future hiring of YX guys may not happen. But, as you claim Grey, who would want to come little ole Frontier anyway?

 

[Little Mojito]

=

The few remaining Midwest guys that i know are all great people! They were raised with morals, class, and a sense of decency! Let's be honest, you only ended up at frontier because United would'nt call you back! How are you going to stay 121 current when your airline goes under? you are going to do what you have to do. Don't sit here and act like frontier is now the most desireable or stable place to work at, you are just as vulnerable as any other airline out there and you are about to find that out the hard way! Bedford style!!!!! Maybe the few Midwest guys that stuck around don't have the benefit of Daddy's trust fund to fall back on like you apparently do? You don't know anyone's situation but your own so don't sit here and judge people you don't even know. We can't all rely on Mommy and Daddy to bail us out all the time, apparently, you can! These guys are doing what is best for their own situation. I'm really sure they want to stick around and fly with some toolbag like yourself, by choice! You sound like a complete fool making statements about these guys. Just make sure that your nonexistent union does'nt screw up the integration for the third time!

Wow! I haven't seen such lack of comprehension in a long, long time. Impressive, even for FI. You addressed many things I never said, let alone implied. "Don't sit here and act like frontier is now the most desirable or stable place..." Holy cow! Are you really that dense? I pretty much said Frontier has never been stable and that's why I PLANNED FOR THE WORSE--and continue to do so! You're right, I don't know everyone's situation, but I have seen many pilots upgrade and instantly go buy a bigger house, get a fancy car, upgrade the wife's t!ts, etc. I'm willing to bet that most Midwest pilots were like most other pilots in that regard. If you choose to live your life that way, fine. But please lay off the whole "we are a very senior pilot group and we're the ones that got screwed" rhetoric. The fact that the Midwest pilot group was senior SHOULD mean they were in a much better position to survive a life changing event like Midwest's demise. Perfect example: an FO at Frontier went out and bought a $800,000+ home within a month of upgrade. Guess what happened less than 6 months later? Bankruptcy. Downgrades. He lost the home and blamed everyone but himself. It was his poor decision making that was the cause, and yet he blamed Frontier. That's what I'm talking about. Not judging. Just stating a fact. Take responsibility for yourself.

 

[dlzav8tr]

not to mention that fapa's imsl proposal placed 60 mid-west guys in with our fos. Even though they brought zero aircraft to the table. Esentially throwing us (f9 fos) under the bus.

 

[Grey Ghost]

not to mention that fapa's imsl proposal placed 60 mid-west guys in with our fos. Even though they brought zero aircraft to the table. Esentially throwing us (f9 fos) under the bus.

Yeah, but they did bring the cookies!!!!