Frontier Airlines becomes Wholly Owned subsidary of Republic

[~~~^~~~]

Regional airline buying a LCC/Major airline. This will be the next big threat to our profession. It will be increasingly difficult to hold the line on pay/benefits at the airline being purchased. Now more than ever before, pilot groups have to draw a line in the sand, then stick to it. Pilot wages continue to be reduced to the level of non skilled labor. A long time ago, I was told that a senior captain could buy a new Cadillac on a months takehome wages, today about $50,000.00. Gross pay had to be about $65,000-$70,000 PER MONTH, in order to take home 50,000. Remember, as ALPA said, "we're taking it back".

Jet - ALPA's strategy to "take it back" was to sell the bottom third of it.

It's funny to read all this "what's the world coming to" posts. Reminds me of what we used to write about Southwest before their rates on the 737 exceeded our 777 and your 747 rates.

Republic and Southwest do not outsource flying to other seniority lists. I think that's a significant difference in their favor.

 

[ATRCA]

Newf: You are right SWA, or SkyWest, might play spoiler. It isn't a stock deal, so the greenmail would actually have to be done on the Courthouse steps.

Maybe the Teamsters will get rolled over. I don't think so. I have to hope the pilots do the right thing and their contract is honored. I'm always pulling for our profession.

Spoilers perhaps. Serious intention to buy??? That's a different thing all together. Maybe adding $20 or $30 million to the price but in the end stepping away...........

A small bidding war with no real intent.

 

[instructordude]

Regional airline buying a LCC/Major airline. This will be the next big threat to our profession. It will be increasingly difficult to hold the line on pay/benefits at the airline being purchased. Now more than ever before, pilot groups have to draw a line in the sand, then stick to it. Pilot wages continue to be reduced to the level of non skilled labor. A long time ago, I was told that a senior captain could buy a new Cadillac on a months takehome wages, today about $50,000.00. Gross pay had to be about $65,000-$70,000 PER MONTH, in order to take home 50,000. Remember, as ALPA said, "we're taking it back".

Yeah and look what has happened to GMC and all those Cadillacs??? GMC is/was not a viable company with it business plan. Labor/unions played a role in its downturn although managenent is to blame ultimately.

Sure I'd love to make those wages but the reality is not there. We all need to look at how we budget our money each month and make do with what we have. 50000/month is not bad at all.

Regarding Republic, all I've read here is how bad they are. How about this: withouth them Frontier would probably liquidate. I'd prefer to be in an RJ dancing with the clouds than on the street. JMO.

 

[Newf Dog]

ATRCA,

I am prepared to be stunned. Very little surprises me in the airline business anymore. However, in saying that there is "nothing there worth buying" and that Frontier is just a "small operation in DEN" you are either being foolish, naive or intentionally inflammatory. I'm not sure which. Really doesn't matter though as you have your opinion and that is just fine so I won't waste time trying to convince you or anyone else otherwise. Should you prove to be correct I congratulate you in advance.

Regardless, I have my popcorn and am ready for the show. Fortunately it would appear that we won't have to wait long to see what happens. I just don't see this as being a done deal yet.

 

[Newf Dog]

instructordude,

you may prefer to be dancing in the clouds in an RJ (or whatever the heck you said) rather than being on the street. Fine. My opinion is that it's attitude's like that which have helped drive the profession into the toilet. I have had my fill of that attitude over the years.

You've made your choice. I hope it works out for you in the long run.

I prefer to be on the street, earning my keep in a profession that pays me quite well and leaves me free of all the BS that is the airline business. I loved flying airplanes and yet strangely I am happier now without it than I have been in the past 20 years. Go figure. I guess it is my morbid curiousity that returns me here now and again.

Good luck to you and everyone else that remains.

 

[Superpilot92]

Regional airline buying a LCC/Major airline. This will be the next big threat to our profession. It will be increasingly difficult to hold the line on pay/benefits at the airline being purchased. Now more than ever before, pilot groups have to draw a line in the sand, then stick to it. Pilot wages continue to be reduced to the level of non skilled labor. A long time ago, I was told that a senior captain could buy a new Cadillac on a months takehome wages, today about $50,000.00. Gross pay had to be about $65,000-$70,000 PER MONTH, in order to take home 50,000. Remember, as ALPA said, "we're taking it back".

I agree 100%. DALPA needs to put scope protection at the top of the list. If anything is relaxed further we're only bringing the pay down throughout the industry which hurts our ability to fight for decent wages. If a regional is flying a plane the size of the DC9 for half the pay we get, How can we fight for higher pay when others will do it cheaper? If all flying was done by us then we set the rates and thats it because they wouldnt be allowed to give that flying to anyone else.

 

[ATRCA]

ATRCA,

I am prepared to be stunned. Very little surprises me in the airline business anymore. However, in saying that there is "nothing there worth buying" and that Frontier is just a "small operation in DEN" you are either being foolish, naive or intentionally inflammatory. I'm not sure which. Really doesn't matter though as you have your opinion and that is just fine so I won't waste time trying to convince you or anyone else otherwise. Should you prove to be correct I congratulate you in advance.

Regardless, I have my popcorn and am ready for the show. Fortunately it would appear that we won't have to wait long to see what happens. I just don't see this as being a done deal yet.

I'm being neither. I have traveled on Frontier and they have a great product and fantastic employees. I'm not slamming them. The fact of the matter is that 51 Airbus and a single hub would certainly relegate one to the "small" category in terms of airline size. The majority of the large Regional carriers operate fleets 4 or 5 times that size. My question is this. In the current economic environment what exactly is gained by purchasing F9 if you're SWA, DAL, CAL or any other powerhouse? Very little I contend. Domestic market share isn't paying the bills right now so buying more of it seems out of the question. If a DEN operation is sought, that can be gained without the purchase of a bankrupt carrier which adds dept, employees and different fleets to the mix. I'm simply inferring that SWA will probably prevail in DEN no matter who owns F9. They are beating up on fairly weak opponents at the moment. Purchasing F9 is the expensive way to a place they appear to be headed already.

If F9 is to survive, I would prefer to see it happen either on their own or at the hands of B6 or SWA. I just don't see either one spending the money. SWA is an awfully conservative company. They don't ever seem to act hastily. Who knows. Bedford is betting on getting this done cheaply and buying his way out of contract feed. He's looking for a shortcut to large gauge. It's a risky bet but then again, contract feed is as risky as it gets...........

 

[Noserider76]

I thought what you wrote was pretty apparent.


Again, WHY???
[/I]

Do you think airlines like DL are going to want to support a potential competitor, albeit a small and probably insignificant one. They have been trying to find ways to cut regional feed and this may provide a great opportunity for the lawyers.

 

[PCL_128]

I've got a really bad feeling about this.

 

[Indy319FA]

Wow. You take a day off and the crap hits the fan. As someone who was involved in the Indy debacle, and a current Republic employee I can make the following observations.

First, this is very different from the situation with ACA/Indy. ACA lost its contracts because they stupidly decided to put the Airbus on the same certificate as the CRJs and Dojets, thus violating scope clauses. Bedford has played the certificate shellgame very well, and has things set up so there is no chance a contract can be canceled for scope. Also Independence was flying gas guzzling 50 seat RJs, not larger aircraft like the 170/190. If Independence had CRJ 700s or 900s, the outcome could have been very different. Also Beford will have a good mix of large RJs and narrowbodies, unlike Fly I which did not have narrowbodies for the first 6 months. Independence's operation was running well once they got to 12 319s and 25 RJs. Unfortunately by then Fly I was a dead duck because of the cash burn.

Second, the middle management at Republic is very weak compared to Independence, and cannot sustain a standalone airline. I suspect you will see a lot of Frontier middle management moving over to Indianapolis to teach the people there a lesson in running a real passenger service airline.

Also don't forget about the slots at LGA and DCA Bedford purchased in the US Airways bankruptcy. I think you will see a major shift of flying away from Denver, and towards more profitable routes in the east and southeast. I also expect to see Bedford consolodate the Republic and Frontier certificates. The pilots scope clause requires all the flying be on one list, so there are no incentives to keep the certificates seperate from this perspective. Maintaining multiple certificates is horrendously expensive. There are no restrictions on either certificate so it would not make any sense to keep them seperate. However if Bedford thinks he can get some turboprop flying, Lynx may stay on one certificate, or be combined with Chautauqua. I expect Shuttle to remain as it is, because of the scope clauses at DL and UA.

Bedford made it pretty clear in his latest updates that he does not see much of a future in providing lift to mainline carriers. I guess now we know how he plans to keep the company going in a shrinking market for regional carriers.

 

[General Lee]

I bet Bedford will use the Lynx certificate (and krappy contract) to buy more Dash-8-400s and then shop them around, maybe for DCI use to cover old ATR routes out of ATL. They might be paid worse than Colgan.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Wow. You take a day off and the crap hits the fan. As someone who was involved in the Indy debacle, and a current Republic employee I can make the following observations.

First, this is very different from the situation with ACA/Indy. ACA lost its contracts because they stupidly decided to put the Airbus on the same certificate as the CRJs and Dojets, thus violating scope clauses. Bedford has played the certificate shellgame very well, and has things set up so there is no chance a contract can be canceled for scope. Also Independence was flying gas guzzling 50 seat RJs, not larger aircraft like the 170/190. If Independence had CRJ 700s or 900s, the outcome could have been very different. Also Beford will have a good mix of large RJs and narrowbodies, unlike Fly I which did not have narrowbodies for the first 6 months. Independence's operation was running well once they got to 12 319s and 25 RJs. Unfortunately by then Fly I was a dead duck because of the cash burn.

Second, the middle management at Republic is very weak compared to Independence, and cannot sustain a standalone airline. I suspect you will see a lot of Frontier middle management moving over to Indianapolis to teach the people there a lesson in running a real passenger service airline.

Also don't forget about the slots at LGA and DCA Bedford purchased in the US Airways bankruptcy. I think you will see a major shift of flying away from Denver, and towards more profitable routes in the east and southeast. I also expect to see Bedford consolodate the Republic and Frontier certificates. The pilots scope clause requires all the flying be on one list, so there are no incentives to keep the certificates seperate from this perspective. Maintaining multiple certificates is horrendously expensive. There are no restrictions on either certificate so it would not make any sense to keep them seperate. However if Bedford thinks he can get some turboprop flying, Lynx may stay on one certificate, or be combined with Chautauqua. I expect Shuttle to remain as it is, because of the scope clauses at DL and UA.

Bedford made it pretty clear in his latest updates that he does not see much of a future in providing lift to mainline carriers. I guess now we know how he plans to keep the company going in a shrinking market for regional carriers.

DAL SCOPE ON THIS

D. Permitted Arrangement with Respect to Category A and C Operations ​

1. Section 1 C. will not apply to category A or C operations on any permitted aircraft type. ​

Exception: If a permitted aircraft type meets the certificated passenger seat requirement of Section 1 B. 40. b. when first placed into service by a Delta Connection Carrier but is subsequently certificated for operation in the United States with a maximum passenger seating capacity in excess of 50 passenger seats, this permitted aircraft type may continue to be operated by Delta Connection Carriers as long as all Delta Connection Carriers operate such permitted aircraft type with no more than 50 passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds at all times. ​

2. If a domestic air carrier operates both permitted aircraft types and aircraft other than permitted aircraft types, the exemption for that domestic air carrier provided by ​

Section 1 D. 1.
will not apply unless: ​

a. the flying on aircraft other than permitted aircraft types is not performed for the Company within the meaning of Section 1 C., and ​

b. there is no reduction in the level of the Company’s then existing system scheduled aircraft block hours of flying as the result of the performance of such flying on other than a permitted aircraft type, and ​

c. the aircraft other than a permitted aircraft type, is either a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 106 or fewer passenger seats and configured with 97 or fewer passenger seats (provided that any jet aircraft configured with between 71 and 97 passenger seats is not flown for the Company or any affiliate and is not flown on a city pair that is served by the Company or an affiliate) or a propeller driven aircraft configured with 72 or fewer passenger seats, and is operated on its own behalf or pursuant to agreement with an air carrier(s) other than the Company or an affiliate. ​

Exception: If a carrier that performs category A or category C operations acquires an aircraft that would cause the Company to no longer be in compliance with the provisions of Section 1 D. 2. c., the Company will terminate such operations on the date that is the later of the date such aircraft is placed in revenue service, or nine months from the date that the Company first became aware of the potential acquisition

 

[lookin4better]

Some little boy on another forum actually called RAH a "new legacy" carrier.....BARF!!

BB isnt the only enemy... its clear that glassy-eyed kids with zero forward thinking will help him tear this whole industry to pieces.

 

[Indy319FA]

Super,

How do you define a domestic air carrier? The FAA sees Republic as three (now five) domestic air carriers because of the certificates. You ought to see the paper chase they go through to take a 170 part out of Shuttle stock to put on a Republic aircraft, or vice versa. As long as the Airbus or 195s do not appear on the Shuttle or CHQ certificates, there is no scope violation.

 

[cybourg10]

I bet Bedford will use the Lynx certificate (and krappy contract) to buy more Dash-8-400s and then shop them around, maybe for DCI use to cover old ATR routes out of ATL. They might be paid worse than Colgan.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Is that even possible? How can you pay someone to fly 70+ passengers for less than Colgan in this country? Can DAL get rid of Shuttle America now and get some of that flying back with mainline aircraft?

 

[lookin4better]

cyborg,

Its not about how many people they are flying, all they care about is telling friends they fly " big planes " ..... have you seen the kids flying for RAH? Nuff said.... its SJS gone pandemic.

 

[Noserider76]

Super,

How do you define a domestic air carrier? The FAA sees Republic as three (now five) domestic air carriers because of the certificates. You ought to see the paper chase they go through to take a 170 part out of Shuttle stock to put on a Republic aircraft, or vice versa. As long as the Airbus or 195s do not appear on the Shuttle or CHQ certificates, there is no scope violation.

I understand there is one pilot seniority list for all the separate "companies". Is that true?

 

[Raoul Duke]

Can we move this thread to the regional board?

 

[jacksjj]

I understand there is one pilot seniority list for all the separate "companies". Is that true?

True statement.

 

[007]

So they own a small Airbus operator? What's the problem?

Back in the 90's this discussion went: "So they'll fly small 50 seat jets, we have scope, what's the problem?"