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Yes, but when ATC says "NorthWest.. traffic at 12 o'clock" you look over your left shoulder.
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From the DAL/NWA rumor mill
- Thread starter PuffDriver
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PeanuckleCRJ
Hurrrrrrrr
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No offense..but you're on the panel...we're on window seats...the equivalent of senior 757 stuff or the A330 at redtail land.
Regardless, we have minimal say in what's about to go down.
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Superpilot92
LONGCALL KING
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None taken, I flew 20+ legs a day out in the bush of Alaska....I am ready to chill for a while.
This is probably not true, but why fence ANC? I can't imagine there are many Delta pilots chomping at the bit to commute up here..what would be a good reason?
IronCityBlue
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A fence may be a good way to prevent forced displacements.
I ran quick #s here. If those ratios are what the SLI is gonna look like, It aint close to fair. Just ran them from my perspective. I am May'98 hire at NWA. 4100ssn. If the bottom ratio is 1:3, I would be below the last DAL Apr'08 hire. I've been here 10yrs. Major windfall for the DAL side.... Not gonna work. I am willing to give up a year or two of seniority, not all of it... This method has the last 1,250 NWA pilots stapled to the bottom.
I say, straight ratio..........
I say, straight ratio..........
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ACL65PILOT
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That is what I am seeing as well, IF I run the numbers based on this.
Lots will come out about this in the next few days. Not sure if all of it will be true or not.
If the above is the case, then I am sure that there was some consideration given to current seat position. FWIW.
The curtain will be open soon.
Lots will come out about this in the next few days. Not sure if all of it will be true or not.
If the above is the case, then I am sure that there was some consideration given to current seat position. FWIW.
The curtain will be open soon.
Jam
I ran the numbers too and came up with a different merger. Hold on for this math in public and it would be about date of hire which is bad for us.
Lets call the airline a total of 12,000 for easy math. 7,200 DAL 4,800 NW (I know its not exact but its easier.
1st 30% doh and assuming NWA has more senior pilots call them 20% of the 30%
That makes 2,400 NWA 1,200 DAL
Next 30% 1 for 2 2,400 DAL 1,200 NWA
Leaving 3,600 DAL and 1,200 NWA
Now 1 for 3
Guess what its almost date of hire that last for pilots are 3 DAL 1 NWA. Again bad for the DAL pilots as we have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
I ran the numbers too and came up with a different merger. Hold on for this math in public and it would be about date of hire which is bad for us.
Lets call the airline a total of 12,000 for easy math. 7,200 DAL 4,800 NW (I know its not exact but its easier.
1st 30% doh and assuming NWA has more senior pilots call them 20% of the 30%
That makes 2,400 NWA 1,200 DAL
Next 30% 1 for 2 2,400 DAL 1,200 NWA
Leaving 3,600 DAL and 1,200 NWA
Now 1 for 3
Guess what its almost date of hire that last for pilots are 3 DAL 1 NWA. Again bad for the DAL pilots as we have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
Superpilot92
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TB
Your math is skewed. You cannot merge the lists and then ratio them out. By your numbers, NWA's top 50% will get DOH and DAL's 16.5% get DOH. Then 33 % of DAL get 1:2 as well as 25% of NWA. Then the bottom is 50% DAL and 25% NWA... Not even close to being fair. That is what DOH would look like.
Assuming this is all "TRUE", you have to divide each individual list separately into three: Top 30%, Mid 30% and bottom 40%. Using round numbers(DAL 7k NWA 5k), you take the top 1500 NWA and top 2100 DAL and merge then in the new list by DOH. Then take the next 1500 NWA and 2100 DAL and merge them by 1:2. Lastly you take the bottom 2000 NWA and bottom 2800 DAL and do 1:3. Problem for me is, that this staples 500 NWA pilots to the bottom of the mid group and an additional 1100 NWA pilots to the bottom of the third. Not too fair for the NWA guys. I, for one, would be below the Apr'08 hires at DAL. Like I said before, I've been here 10 yrs. Is that a fair integration. Don' think so...
Your math is skewed. You cannot merge the lists and then ratio them out. By your numbers, NWA's top 50% will get DOH and DAL's 16.5% get DOH. Then 33 % of DAL get 1:2 as well as 25% of NWA. Then the bottom is 50% DAL and 25% NWA... Not even close to being fair. That is what DOH would look like.
Assuming this is all "TRUE", you have to divide each individual list separately into three: Top 30%, Mid 30% and bottom 40%. Using round numbers(DAL 7k NWA 5k), you take the top 1500 NWA and top 2100 DAL and merge then in the new list by DOH. Then take the next 1500 NWA and 2100 DAL and merge them by 1:2. Lastly you take the bottom 2000 NWA and bottom 2800 DAL and do 1:3. Problem for me is, that this staples 500 NWA pilots to the bottom of the mid group and an additional 1100 NWA pilots to the bottom of the third. Not too fair for the NWA guys. I, for one, would be below the Apr'08 hires at DAL. Like I said before, I've been here 10 yrs. Is that a fair integration. Don' think so...
On the hotel van this morning an airbus NWA crew DTW and a DAL 88 crew ATL. Captain's talked about sick time and pay raises, F/As talked,NWA flight attendents on a 5 day trip were all happy bc they hope to get Delta uniforms. Could only think while they were talking that nothing could be worse then a 5day trip out of DTW. But us two FO's didn't say word bc we know we will be the ones getting screwed the most. Last thing I heard from the NW captain talking to his FA so we all could hear him as we were getting our bags was,"I can't wait to be SLC based bc he is a PHX commuter." Nice touch buddy keep your comments to your self and stay in DTW please.
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I don't know where the ratio lines are drawn, but wouldn't it make sense to try to make those lines match current equipment bids? If so, that would probably be close to correct, but still favor the NWA side slightly.
Truckdriver
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The rumored deal here looks like it is not the real deal. However, remember that DOH really doesn't mean much here. If you end up in a position that is relatively the same as the one you are currently in, then I don't see how it isn't fair. I'm at 93% on the current DAL list. I don't expect to be at 90% on a combined list nor do I expect to be at 97% on a combined list. If I end up behind somebody from NWA with a hire date after mine, but have the same relative seniority, then it's fair. With the way hiring has went at NWA and DAL, it does appear that you may have some guys from Delta with a DOH after yours that may be senior to you. If you end up in the same relative position, I still don't see how you can say that isn't fair.
ACL65PILOT
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ACL65PILOT
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Truckdriver
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That's my concern. I doubt many Delta guys are chomping at the bit to head to MSP or DTW. I think that every NWA commuter from the west coast will bid SLC/LAX. Then those of us who are junior and chose Delta to live out west will be commuting to MSP or DTW. I hope there are some base fences for at least 5 years until the old guys start leaving again.
I guess you did not read what I wrote. The numbers I put up, put me, NWA 80%ile 10yr Seniority, just below a DAL 100%ile in indoc.... I would loose 12% on the list and your indoc guy would be up 8%..."Fair" to anyone...
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ACL65PILOT
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Correct to you is your new hire, still in indoc, be senior to me with a 10yr seniority.... Come on!!!!
What's the difference between a 5 day trip out of DTW and one out of ATL?
I mean, it's not like you're going out clubbing between legs or anything.
DTW has a very nice operation. Four long runways you don't have to cross while taxiing, extremely few delays, and reasonably decent food choices (it's no PIT, however). Sure, you have to de-ice, but the remote pads are VERY quick, and you're in, you're out and on your way.
One thing I will grant you, it's VERY hard to make money going INTO DTW.
MSP, on the other hand, holds people on VFR days, although the new runway helps.
MEM was the best...at least until FedEx started flying in the day time.
As far as the 5 day trips...So? Guys who commute LOVE them. Two 5 days and a 4 day, and you have an 80+ hour schedule with just 3 commutes. I personally don't like flying that much, so I just do 3 4 days for a min sked.
Heck, the 757/330/747 has 12 day trips. Come to work once a month, and if you work it right, 6 weeks off in between.
Nu
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Relative seniority was not good enough...
Ratio with dynamic seniority proposed by your negotiators was not good enough...
I do not think we can continue playing this game for long before Joe Merchant's "ATR drivers get DOH at Delta" starts to look reasonable. After all, if equipment, base and bid has nothing to do with it, Joe is right.
I respectfully disagree & you have no idea where I am.
DON"T GET ME WRONG HERE.....I am FOR relative sen. It provides the fairest integration... The rumored SLI is not even close to a relative SLI. I saw your list and with relative sen, I loose between 1.5 and 2 yrs of sen. I have said before, that I am OK with that trade. I am not OK with trading all my sen...
JoeMerchant
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Point of clarification....I never advocated "DOH for ATR drivers".....but you and I both advocate some kind of "W2 style" method correct? Where does $112K a year get me on "W2 style" integration? Not DOH....but not stapled either......
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That gets you way the heck ahead of me.
I still like the posted "Fair Plan" the best for a NWA merger. That way we do not end up with such stark contrasts between "winners" and "losers" at the bottom of the list. We can each decide individually when we bid out to the new list.
I still like the posted "Fair Plan" the best for a NWA merger. That way we do not end up with such stark contrasts between "winners" and "losers" at the bottom of the list. We can each decide individually when we bid out to the new list.
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Max Powers
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Oh yea lets compare a highly complex problem to the Automobile. The -9 may be paid for but even if someone paid you to keep them they are still WAYYYYY more expensive to operate than a new 737, even if you include lease pymts on 737. Maint. is another huge expense. Not to mention oil which will cost hundreds of thousands per month per aircraft extra when compared to the new 737.
Why are NWA guys so delusional when talking about the economical viability of the DC-9????
I'll tell you:
"Trying to convince someone of the truth when the viability of his job depends on a lie is next to impossible."
B. Franklin
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