I was just wondering if anyone ever switches from Fractionals to a Major airline? The same way a Regional Pilot might switch to a major? I'm not implying that the Fractionals are a place you don't want to be...as a matter of fact they sound more and more like where I'd like to be...however I do want to leave my options open for later. Does anyone know how Majors (especially FedEx and UPS) view Fractional flying as opposed to 121? Thanks to anyone who responds.
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From Fractional to a Major?
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Grim Reaper
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Between 1997 and 2001, several hundred pilots left the Fractional industry for some type of 121 operation. The Fractional busniess hires quality pilots and provides excellent experience. The Fractional are a good place to be if a 121 job is your goal.
That is the good news. The sad news is that most pilot who left the Fractional for a 121 job are now at home on furlough wishing they were still with a Fractional. Notice I did not say all. Those who joined SW, FedEx, UPS, and some of the others, including regionals are still working.
That is the good news. The sad news is that most pilot who left the Fractional for a 121 job are now at home on furlough wishing they were still with a Fractional. Notice I did not say all. Those who joined SW, FedEx, UPS, and some of the others, including regionals are still working.
hydrarkt
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Absolutely man.
I've been at NJA for almost 3 years. Before 9/11 there were tons of pilots leaving for the majors. I moved up the seniority list really fast. You're looked at just as highly here as at a regional. And you'll probably be flying as a jet PIC here much quicker than at a regional, although your total time probably won't add up as quick.. just a little info.
I've been at NJA for almost 3 years. Before 9/11 there were tons of pilots leaving for the majors. I moved up the seniority list really fast. You're looked at just as highly here as at a regional. And you'll probably be flying as a jet PIC here much quicker than at a regional, although your total time probably won't add up as quick.. just a little info.
Diesel
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Your time won't add up as quick if you decide to go to the x and sit around on your butt all day going to sultan's kitchen trying not to get released.
Now for those of us that work, the time adds up quicker than the regionals. Plus you are getting PIC time if you want right out of the box.
Problem is nobody is hiring so there really is no rush.
When the hiring starts hapening again you are going to an interview with our type of background is a big step up. The typical regional pilot goes to the same places. You will have been to ASE, EGL, JAC, JFK, TEB, PBI, SRQ, PHX, and some others that you couldn't even pronounce and all they had was a GPS aproach. This was all in one tour.
Sure beats doing IAD-EWR 5 times a day.
Now for those of us that work, the time adds up quicker than the regionals. Plus you are getting PIC time if you want right out of the box.
Problem is nobody is hiring so there really is no rush.
When the hiring starts hapening again you are going to an interview with our type of background is a big step up. The typical regional pilot goes to the same places. You will have been to ASE, EGL, JAC, JFK, TEB, PBI, SRQ, PHX, and some others that you couldn't even pronounce and all they had was a GPS aproach. This was all in one tour.
Sure beats doing IAD-EWR 5 times a day.
furlough-boy
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I don't agree
"When the hiring starts hapening again you are going to an interview with our type of background is a big step up"
Not to pick a fight, but I have to disagree with you there. The majors fly to the same places over and over again just like the regionals, why would they be impressed that you flew into every podunk uncontrolled field in North America?
"When the hiring starts hapening again you are going to an interview with our type of background is a big step up"
Not to pick a fight, but I have to disagree with you there. The majors fly to the same places over and over again just like the regionals, why would they be impressed that you flew into every podunk uncontrolled field in North America?
501261
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Re: I don't agree
For the same reason they prefer a 4 year degree, it makes you a more rounded person! A 4 year degree has as much to do with flying an airplane as having flown into Podunk, KS! But what it does tell management is that you have handled some situations that are not normal in day to day 121 operations, and come out OK.
furlough-boy said:
For the same reason they prefer a 4 year degree, it makes you a more rounded person! A 4 year degree has as much to do with flying an airplane as having flown into Podunk, KS! But what it does tell management is that you have handled some situations that are not normal in day to day 121 operations, and come out OK.
Saluki Dawg
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I think I have to agree with Furlough here. I don't think that fractional flying is going to make you more competitive than someone already flying Part 121 (Regional, National, Major) or otherwise.
I think that which ever route you decide to go. Both are looked at equally by the Majors. I have friends that have flown both Fractional and Regional, and both have been picked up at Major Airlines. It all depends on the kind of flying your interested in doing.
I think that which ever route you decide to go. Both are looked at equally by the Majors. I have friends that have flown both Fractional and Regional, and both have been picked up at Major Airlines. It all depends on the kind of flying your interested in doing.
Re: I don't agree
You will have been to ASE, EGL, JAC, JFK, TEB, PBI, SRQ, PHX, and some others that you couldn't even pronounce and all they had was a GPS aproach. This was all in one tour.
Yup, those are podunk places, sure.
I was told at a Riddle-Airline convention three Novembers ago, that airlines especially want pilots with fractional experience.
UAL, DAL, AMR, and NWAC captains that sat on interview boards all said they thought it was a plus to have fractional jet experience.
Hmmmm, I remember they said, fractional pilots are responsible for everything, and getting it all done on time. (catering, cleaning, bags, pax briefing, oh yeah, I forgot, telling the pax (owners) what's the real reason for the delay)
Two of these captains told me the "121 time" is commonly mistaken as "golden". They said, that's why we have basic indoc. groundschool.
To me furlough-boy, it shows how misinformed you are.
PS, is there gonna be the kind of job you left still waiting for you in a few years?
furlough-boy said:
You will have been to ASE, EGL, JAC, JFK, TEB, PBI, SRQ, PHX, and some others that you couldn't even pronounce and all they had was a GPS aproach. This was all in one tour.
Yup, those are podunk places, sure.
I was told at a Riddle-Airline convention three Novembers ago, that airlines especially want pilots with fractional experience.
UAL, DAL, AMR, and NWAC captains that sat on interview boards all said they thought it was a plus to have fractional jet experience.
Hmmmm, I remember they said, fractional pilots are responsible for everything, and getting it all done on time. (catering, cleaning, bags, pax briefing, oh yeah, I forgot, telling the pax (owners) what's the real reason for the delay)
Two of these captains told me the "121 time" is commonly mistaken as "golden". They said, that's why we have basic indoc. groundschool.
To me furlough-boy, it shows how misinformed you are.
PS, is there gonna be the kind of job you left still waiting for you in a few years?
furlough-boy
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How could I ever argue with what you "heard" three novembers ago? I've been to the big show and flown the heavy iron for the majors, plus I've flown corporate. You can get upset and attack how "misinformed" I am, but I still believe that neither fractional or regional guys have a large advantage over one another.
The fractional guy might have the experience of getting it "all" done, but that's not how a major airline runs. A regional pilot comes with the experience of working with a crew larger than two pilots. He's used to working with Mx Controll, Ramp Control, Catering, and all the different groups. It's being able to work in the same team environment that makes the regional guys "shine".
Keep trying, maybe someday you'll make it too.
The fractional guy might have the experience of getting it "all" done, but that's not how a major airline runs. A regional pilot comes with the experience of working with a crew larger than two pilots. He's used to working with Mx Controll, Ramp Control, Catering, and all the different groups. It's being able to work in the same team environment that makes the regional guys "shine".
Keep trying, maybe someday you'll make it too.
My god!
I've been reading posts on this message board for a few months now and I just can't believe all pilots are this friggin immature!! I posted something because I wanted to hear all opinions and why people thought the way they did. I can form my own opinions about their motivations. I didn't intend, nor do most of us, to offend or belittle our fellow pilots (major, fractional, regional, fractional, student, freight dog, or otherwise) in ANY way! But some of you go out of your way to be hostile and are obsessed with the "game". I don't believe there are pilot positions which are "top of the game" and those at the bottom. Not everyone wants to work for a major...some people being flight instructors or flying 135 freight in all weather. It all depends on what's important to you in life and what your options are. Some of you forget that and also forget what it was like to have only a few options. No wonder pilots can't get along with management at most companies and the public hates our unions...the outspopken ones act like children!!!
Just a thought...
I've been reading posts on this message board for a few months now and I just can't believe all pilots are this friggin immature!! I posted something because I wanted to hear all opinions and why people thought the way they did. I can form my own opinions about their motivations. I didn't intend, nor do most of us, to offend or belittle our fellow pilots (major, fractional, regional, fractional, student, freight dog, or otherwise) in ANY way! But some of you go out of your way to be hostile and are obsessed with the "game". I don't believe there are pilot positions which are "top of the game" and those at the bottom. Not everyone wants to work for a major...some people being flight instructors or flying 135 freight in all weather. It all depends on what's important to you in life and what your options are. Some of you forget that and also forget what it was like to have only a few options. No wonder pilots can't get along with management at most companies and the public hates our unions...the outspopken ones act like children!!!
Just a thought...
Grim Reaper
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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I do think it is humorous for pilots who have NEVER flown 121 to tell pilots who HAVE flown 121 that fractional experience better prepares someone for the majors.
This being based on their assumtions about 121. As opposed to the regional pilot's FIRST HAND knowledge.
Some of these guys need to get over their egos.
A sharp pilot is a sharp pilot, no matter what their background.
Therefore, I am now entitled to think that the wealth of CFI time that I have in all kinds of piston singles make me more marketable to the majors. After all, those frac guys ONLY fly three or four types before moving on, right? See? I have more experience checking out in a new type. To he!! with all that jet time they have. Variety is FAR more important!
This being based on their assumtions about 121. As opposed to the regional pilot's FIRST HAND knowledge.
Some of these guys need to get over their egos.
A sharp pilot is a sharp pilot, no matter what their background.
Therefore, I am now entitled to think that the wealth of CFI time that I have in all kinds of piston singles make me more marketable to the majors. After all, those frac guys ONLY fly three or four types before moving on, right? See? I have more experience checking out in a new type. To he!! with all that jet time they have. Variety is FAR more important!
100LL... Again! said:I do think it is humorous for pilots who have NEVER flown 121 to tell pilots who HAVE flown 121 that fractional experience better prepares someone for the majors.
This being based on their assumtions about 121. As opposed to the regional pilot's FIRST HAND knowledge.
Some of these guys need to get over their egos.
A sharp pilot is a sharp pilot, no matter what their background.
Easy Francis.................................,
I did fly 121, whoo hoo, big deal!
Never said I was better than anyone else.
In fact I agree with you, you get alot of varied experience flying at a fractional.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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I'm sorry thst you got the impression that the post in question irritated me.
It didn't. That's why I said it was humorous.
To quote:
--------------------------
I did fly 121, whoo hoo, big deal!
--------------------------
That is exactly my point. A sharp pilot is a sharp pilot. There is no reason a very sharp 1500 hr CFI could not go directly to a major and perform as well or better than more experienced members of their newhire group. Background means very little (IMNSHO).
Thanks for agreeing.
IMO, hiring based on hours and type of flying background is a very blunt instrument. It may be the best we can do (in my view we could do better), but it is still a very coarse and inaccurate method.
It didn't. That's why I said it was humorous.
To quote:
--------------------------
I did fly 121, whoo hoo, big deal!
--------------------------
That is exactly my point. A sharp pilot is a sharp pilot. There is no reason a very sharp 1500 hr CFI could not go directly to a major and perform as well or better than more experienced members of their newhire group. Background means very little (IMNSHO).
Thanks for agreeing.
IMO, hiring based on hours and type of flying background is a very blunt instrument. It may be the best we can do (in my view we could do better), but it is still a very coarse and inaccurate method.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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Exactly. However, some pilots are much better at converting experience into judgement. Hence the old adage about one hour repeated a thousand times.
You are correct, Judgement is the goal, not experience. If we could inject judgement directly into someone, there would be little need for experience. The problem with the current system is that it NEVER really recognizes judgement. It recognizes hours as a crude measure of judgement. This causes newer pilots to pursue a full logbook, even at the expense of learning something. Anyone who has not seen this hasn't been around GA very much.
A freight operation I was associated with had two bare-mins 135 guys who could out-think and out-fly one of the higher time guys. (I was none of the three in question, BTW).
In other words, it still depends on the individual's character and professionalism. Professionalism cannot be assumed based on experience. Judgement can be inferred somewhat by experience, but it is STILL a blunt instrument.
Pilots of all experience levels have made some very bad judgement calls. Some people use up more of the safety net than others. But unless one day they use it all up and bend something, it is not easy to predict who is riding closer to the edge.
You are correct, Judgement is the goal, not experience. If we could inject judgement directly into someone, there would be little need for experience. The problem with the current system is that it NEVER really recognizes judgement. It recognizes hours as a crude measure of judgement. This causes newer pilots to pursue a full logbook, even at the expense of learning something. Anyone who has not seen this hasn't been around GA very much.
A freight operation I was associated with had two bare-mins 135 guys who could out-think and out-fly one of the higher time guys. (I was none of the three in question, BTW).
In other words, it still depends on the individual's character and professionalism. Professionalism cannot be assumed based on experience. Judgement can be inferred somewhat by experience, but it is STILL a blunt instrument.
Pilots of all experience levels have made some very bad judgement calls. Some people use up more of the safety net than others. But unless one day they use it all up and bend something, it is not easy to predict who is riding closer to the edge.
Gulfstream 200
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sparticusflt
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Prior to 9/11 NJA's attrition rate was what 25%. 98% of those went to the majors. Now do I think a fractional will better prepare you for a major airline job better then a regional pilot? Who knows. What I do know is that getting a major airline job is like getting struck by lightening. For those of you who don't think it comes down to luck in the end, then I think you should rethink it. Most everyone in the majors that was hired within the last 10 years probably can remember being in an interview class with guys that had more experience, education, and such... and for some reason or another the other guys didn't get the job. I don't think anyone knows, the perfect formula for getting a job in the "Show". When the wheels start turning again, it will be the same thing. Guys will be hired from all over, from the military, regionals, fractionals and what not and to those who get hired, I would remember that there are thousands of other pilots that can do your job, they just didn't have the luck to get it.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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--------------------------------------
...getting a major airline job is like getting struck by lightening. For those of you who don't think it comes down to luck in the end, then I think you should rethink it. Most everyone in the majors that was hired within the last 10 years probably can remember being in an interview class with guys that had more experience, education, and such... and for some reason or another the other guys didn't get the job. I don't think anyone knows, the perfect formula for getting a job in the "Show". When the wheels start turning again, it will be the same thing. Guys will be hired from all over, from the military, regionals, fractionals and what not and to those who get hired...
----------------------------------------
Extremely True
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I would remember that there are thousands of other pilots that can do your job, they just didn't have the luck to get it.
----------------------------------------
Bingo! Truer words were never spoken.
...getting a major airline job is like getting struck by lightening. For those of you who don't think it comes down to luck in the end, then I think you should rethink it. Most everyone in the majors that was hired within the last 10 years probably can remember being in an interview class with guys that had more experience, education, and such... and for some reason or another the other guys didn't get the job. I don't think anyone knows, the perfect formula for getting a job in the "Show". When the wheels start turning again, it will be the same thing. Guys will be hired from all over, from the military, regionals, fractionals and what not and to those who get hired...
----------------------------------------
Extremely True
----------------------------------------
I would remember that there are thousands of other pilots that can do your job, they just didn't have the luck to get it.
----------------------------------------
Bingo! Truer words were never spoken.
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