Friendly NJI/NJA discussion

[GEXDriver]

Jeez its not rocket science. It will probably work the same way it does now at NJA when any captain moves to a new airplane. They fly for awhile as an "unreleased captain" (FO for practical purposes) to gain experience. This lasts anywhere from 3 to 9 months and then they are good to go.

Right, a few months of pseudo captain experience at NJA is roughly equivalent to years of Gulfstream international captain experience in the real world.

Which pretty much explains the BBJ street captains who were there to bridge that experience gap during the ramp up.

Those "street captains" were around for years and it's already been beat to death on these boards that there are many here that think the BBJ operation was the blind leading the blind. Not a good example.


AA717driver - your experience of being hired into the left seat of a Gulfstream with no prior Gulfstream experience is certainly not typical of the industry. Your employer probably didn't want to pay for a Gulfstream captain. I'm betting that your compensation reflects that.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Looks like the military Gulfstream good-ole-boy hiring network is kicking in.

Actually, looks like asses smell one another out. They enjoy the time spent in the cockpit saying "Okay, enough about you...let's talk about ME!"

I've got to tell you that it's this strange arrogant attitude that prevails with many G-string guys and has been predominant in many over at NJI. Many of the NJI pilots AND flight attendants (for unknown reasons) have held their noses high around us NJA folks when we walk into their presence. Not all of them, but most. I never could understand how flying something as simple as a G-String could create such a character flaw.

I'm able to hold a G-string PIC slot when they come available but will probably let a few others slide in first and smooth things out. And besides, I would be taking a reduction in QOL since they don't have a 7 & 7 until they are consolidated.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Jet Fuel,

Better learn a little more about NJI before posting. 50% of crewmembers at NJI have had 7-7 for more than 2 years. The rest are on 6-5 and scheduling is always willing to move things around a bit to accomodate special events in crewmembers' lives. If you are senior enough at NJA to hold the 1 for 3 integration at NJI, you will be able to hold 7-7.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Right, a few months of pseudo captain experience at NJA is roughly equivalent to years of Gulfstream international captain experience in the real world.

You know, I think I have figured out something here. You see at NJA many of us have recent experience in multiple airplane types. You see we have the ability to fly one airplane for awhile and then switch and fly a different type.

You guys have been flying only G4s and its offshoots. You are so stuck on one airplane type that maybe you aren't comfortable with the idea of flying anything different. Maybe new airplanes scare you a bit?

Must be true because otherwise you would see that flying a new airplane is no big deal.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Jet Fuel,

Better learn a little more about NJI before posting. 50% of crewmembers at NJI have had 7-7 for more than 2 years. The rest are on 6-5 and scheduling is always willing to move things around a bit to accomodate special events in crewmembers' lives. If you are senior enough at NJA to hold the 1 for 3 integration at NJI, you will be able to hold 7-7.

Thanks for the info. I'm a quick study. But instead of learning a new set of work rules, I think I'll just wait the three years. Besides, my sick days accomodate me quite well during those "special events" and scheduling actually must get me home on my 7th day and can't hold me hostage for day 8 or 9 'cuz it wouldn't be prudent or efficient. I'll never have to work on day 8 unless I chose to do so. My contract only allows the company to use that eighth day to airline me home. And for my trouble, I collect nearly a couple thousand dollars and get the equal time off of my first day on the next tour. 40 percent more of your pilots will have the opportunity for an improved lifestyle with their families on the 7 and 7. I think you're really going to appreciate all the protections that our hard won work rules will provide those of you at NJI in three years.

 

[semperfido]

You know, I think I have figured out something here. You see at NJA many of us have recent experience in multiple airplane types. You see we have the ability to fly one airplane for awhile and then switch and fly a different type.

You guys have been flying only G4s and its offshoots. You are so stuck on one airplane type that maybe you aren't comfortable with the idea of flying anything different. Maybe new airplanes scare you a bit?

Must be true because otherwise you would see that flying a new airplane is no big deal.

wrong-- they been there, done that. they are probably just satisfied with what they are doing.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

You think we haven't "been there done that"?

Does that include our former Airforce One pilots? Our former NASA test pilots? Our former wide body international airline captains? You really think their pilots are of a different quality than ours?

My copilot last tour was telling me about the "around the world" tours that he would fly at Pan Am in the 60s. Talk about "been there and done that"!

The interesting thing is seeing how different everyones backgrounds are and how little it seems to matter when paired as a respectful professional crew.

 

[semperfido]

You think we haven't "been there done that"?

.

i didn't infer that. you are reading things into my post. you seemed to have it all figured out. take a deep breath then beam me up scotty. imp:

 

[AA717driver]

AA717driver - your experience of being hired into the left seat of a Gulfstream with no prior Gulfstream experience is certainly not typical of the industry. Your employer probably didn't want to pay for a Gulfstream captain. I'm betting that your compensation reflects that.

I know it's not typical. My department is certainly NOT the type to hire low-experience types just to avoid paying for a "Gulfstream captain".

They could have paid a lot of salary for the $100k in training I've done in the past two years.

Sometimes they hire G-types and sometimes they don't. My compensation reflects the sorry state of corporate aviation in the Midwest. And, I'm not willing to move to New Jersey/York to get "industry standard".TC

 

[SkyGirl]

I have flown with all types at NJA. Including a thud driver that was shot down and spent over 7 1/2 years at the Hanoi Hilton, a SR 71 pilot, who, if he likes you will tell you many things that arent written in the history books. Many airline pilots that have flown 747s when they were a new plane. Men that MADE history and have movies about their lives.

Does that include our former Airforce One pilots? Our former NASA test pilots? Our former wide body international airline captains? You really think their pilots are of a different quality than ours?

My copilot last tour was telling me about the "around the world" tours that he would fly at Pan Am in the 60s.

Something here doesn't add up. No offense, but you'd think that women and men with this sort of experience and qualifications could find a better job than working at NJA. SeaSpray seems to have options.

Someone posted that everything at NJA works on seniority and the company makes no effort to match qualifications with requirements. So these people with all the experience and glorious histories probably wouldn't fly the Gulfstreams anyways, right?

Sctt, your post seems to substantiate this claim. You did say that it was your co-pilot that had all that "around the world" experience. Presumably, he is qualified in larger aircraft than the Hawker and has more total time than your 4,000 hours.

_SkyGirl_

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Yeah he sure does have more experience than me. And he has flown many airplanes much larger than a Hawker.

He has options. We all have options. We all came to NJA for different reasons. I came for the potential I saw here. Looks like that move should pay off pretty well.

This one particular guy... I doubt he will be flying a Gulfstream. He is pretty much killing time until retirement and is pretty happy where he is. Our other pilots with remarkable resumes are scattered throughout the seniority list.

I don't understand your statement about matching qualifications with requirements.

This is nobodys first job. If you are a captain here you have earned it. Someone new comes in with 10 times your experience they will be your copilot. Happens everyday and not just here. Have never seen it be a problem.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

.....

 

[BrnJetFuel]

If you are a captain here you have earned it.

And if your senior enough to hold a G-string, you've been at NJA for longer than ten years and have REALLY EARNED IT!!!!!

Additionally, you probably have been flying jets far longer than those who will be sliding right seat to you.

 

[GVFlyer]

And if your senior enough to hold a G-string, you've been at NJA for longer than ten years and have REALLY EARNED IT!!!!!

Additionally, you probably have been flying jets far longer than those who will be sliding right seat to you.

Just in the interest of journalistic accuracy - here's a brief history of your development and aircraft acquisitions. (Note: This extract is from your press release archives and clearly, not all ordered aircraft were delivered)

1984

* Executive Jet, Inc.*****is purchased by Richard Santulli, a former Goldman Sachs principal.



1986

* The NetJets fractional ownership concept is introduced at the National Business Aviation Association, aviation's annual business show.



1987

* Executive Jet, Inc. launches its revolutionary NetJets fractional aircraft ownership program with the purchase of eight new Citation S/IIs.




1993

* Further expanding the NetJets program, Executive Jet Aviation orders 20 of the mid-sized cabin Hawker 1000 aircraft - the world's largest business jet order to date.



1995

* Executive Jet Aviation orders 25 Cessna Citation V Ultras and takes option on 25 more for its growing NetJets program.
* Executive Jet Aviation and Gulfstream Aerospace create the Gulfstream Shares program.
* Executive Jet International orders 22 new Gulfstream IV-SPs, valued at more than $500 million.
* Executive Jet Aviation accepts delivery of the first Hawker 1000 business jet for NetJets fractional jet program.



1996

* The NetJets® Europe program is launched.
* Executive Jet Aviation purchases 40 Citation Xs and 20 Citation VIIs.



1997

* Executive Jet Aviation purchases 52 Cessna Citation Excels at the Paris Airshow - the largest single business jet aircraft order ever.
* The NetJets fractional jet ownership program*****begins operation of Citation VIIs midsize cabin aircraft.
* NetJets Middle East is announced, with operations to begin second quarter 1999.
* Executive Jet Aviation and Boeing announce a joint venture that will add the Boeing Business Jet 737 to the NetJets fractional fleet by 2000.
* Executive Jet Aviation purchases 36 Hawker 800XPs.
* Executive Jet Aviation purchases 28 Falcon 2000s.



1998

* Berkshire Hathaway purchases Executive Jet, Inc. 3 ½ years after world-renowned financier Warren Buffett buys his first NetJets share.
* Executive Jet Aviation announces orders for 20 additional Hawker 800XP's and 12 Falcon 2000 aircraft for NetJets Europe at the Farnborough Air Show.
* Mr. Santulli and Mr. Buffett attend National Business Aircraft Association's annual convention and announce the purchase of 161 new business jets - an order that is valued at over $3 billion and includes 9 Boeing Business Jets and options for 16 more over the next four years; 12 Gulfstream Vs and 12 options; 14 additional Gulfstream IV-SPs; and 100 Citation Sovereigns.



1999

* Executive Jet Aviation accepts delivery of the first Falcon 2000 business jet for NetJets fractional jet program.
* Executive Jet Aviation announces order of 100 super midsized transcontinental Hawker Horizons, a total value of $2 billion.



2000


* Executive Jet International announces orders for 20 new Gulfstream GV-SP ultra-long range business aircraft.



2001

* Executive Jet Aviation takes delivery of the first of 29 ordered Boeing Business Jets to date and its first of 32 Gulfstream Vs for use in "connecting the continents."
* Executive Jet Aviation commits to 25 Citation Bravos and 25 Citation Excel for NetJets Europe program.
* Executive Jet Aviation commits to 25 new Falcon 2000EX's, bringing the firm order commitment to 99 Falcon's with options for 25 more.
* Executive Jet International places a $2-billion order with General Dynamics for 50 super mid-sized Gulfstream 200 Aircraft, with options for 50 more aircraft.
* Marquis Jet Partners launches the first premium private jet card program - NetJets®, the pioneer and worldwide leader in fractional aircraft ownership, to provide aircraft management and operations support for the program.



2002

* Executive Jet, Inc. changes its name to NetJets Inc.
* The name Executive Jet is retained through our subsidiary Executive Jet Management, the leading aircraft management and charter services provider in the world.
* NetJets Aviation*****orders 100 new Cessna CitationJet 3 business jets and 12 Citation X aircraft from Cessna Aircraft Company for the rapidly growing NetJets fractional aircraft ownership program. Total value of the order and maintenance services is valued at over $300 million. Citation X deliveries will occur in 2004, and initial deliveries of the CJ3 will begin in 2005.
* NetJets International places $1.5 billion order with Gulfstream for 50 G150 business jets and options for 50 more aircraft.



2003


* NetJets*****Aviation Places $360 million Order for 50 Hawker 400XPs and 8 Hawker 800XPs.
* W.W. Boisture Named President of NetJets Aviation, Inc. and NetJets Services, Inc.*****responsible for Operations in North America. Mr. Boisture was most recently Executive Vice President of General Dynamics Aerospace and President of Gulfstream Aerospace where he was a leader in the turnaround and significant growth of that company beginning in 1994.


GV





~

 

[CE750Driver]

Something here doesn't add up. No offense, but you'd think that women and
men with this sort of experience and qualifications could find a better job than working at NJA. SeaSpray seems to have options.

Someone posted that everything at NJA works on seniority and the company makes no effort to match qualifications with requirements. So these people with all the experience and glorious histories probably wouldn't fly the Gulfstreams anyways, right?



Sorry it doesnt add up for you sweetie. If you are interested to know who some of these people are pm me. If not dont question my integrity and half ass acuse me of lying. Unlike some people, my career wasnt handed to me on a silver platter.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

The concept of being first officer to an unqualified NJA captain in an aircraft in which I have thousands of hours in command is somewhat less than appealing. (1/3 of all new captains will come from the NJA seniority list) You are creating an unsafe operating model.

Well Colonel SeaSpray

From one RETIRED military pilot to a WANNABE, you have embarrassed us all. PLEASE find another job...do NOT come here and please don't change your mind, because I would hate for you to put your life in the hands of us "under qualified" aviators. I can just imagine what working with you would be like. Wow.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Just in the interest of journalistic accuracy - here's a brief history of your development and aircraft acquisitions. (Note: This extract is from your press release archives and clearly, not all ordered aircraft were delivered)

GV





~

Wow, lot of effort on your part. And your point is....?

 

[Hawkered]

GV, Skygirl and others,

This post started out with all the good intentions of building a gentle path to a stable platform that could be built upon as a bridge at a later date. Sadly this has not happened, and quite bluntly, having worked with some distinguished airman from all walks of life, I think the post from Seaspray is about as bad as it gets!

Skygirl, I am happily married with three sons. Some international airlines have cockpit divorce rates of 83%. There is a saying that us old school guys have heard since the dawn of time,

" A flight attendant is after a husband...anybody's husband."

Believe it or not, the Hilton in Hong Kong looks remarkably similar to the one in LAX.

Tonight I went to the pistol range with my oldest boy, and then took him to karate. My middle boy did soccer and my youngest has a hand for piano.

Flying is a job, and the people I fly have left me feeling proud and accomplished, but it's still a job..not a religion.

My licences and type ratings span the globe, and my 22 years in the cockpit have done nothing good for my hearing or smile lines, but I know one thing. There a whole bunch of heavy-lift drivers out there pushing around whales (747s) that are not nearly as happy as the Netjets guys I've met!

 

[AA717driver]

There a whole bunch of heavy-lift drivers out there pushing around whales (747s) that are not nearly as happy as the Netjets guys I've met!

You said a mouthful. You've got be comfortable in your own skin (I think that's from a movie or song or something--anyway I didn't come up with it.).

Good luck.TC

 

[GVFlyer]

Wow, lot of effort on your part. And your point is....?

You said "Additionally, you probably have been flying jets far longer than those who will be sliding right seat to you" regarding the NJI pilots. That's simply not the case. Executive Jet was operating Citation II's when the Gulfstream deal was inked. I listed the chronology to show this. The initial cadre at EJI was required by Gulfstream to be international Gulfstream captains with 2500 hours in type.

I played a peripheral part in setting up the EJI program on the Gulfstream side. I flew as an NJI captain when Gulfstream got two one-eight shares for supplemental lift and I participated in the Executive Jet / Gulfstream joint marketing effort until it ended in 1999.

NJI is a fine organization staffed with professional pilots who deserve to be treated with more respect than the gloating "You're going to be stapled" attitude so many of you have demonstrated.

GV