Freedumb Air, Just don't do it!!

[azpilot]

But if you're a pilot on the street looking for a job, what's the difference between going to Freedom and going to Skywest? Both are non-union carriers that will compete with other airlines for feeder business.

Skywest pays its pilots better and treats them better overall. If no one would take the Freedom jobs JO would have to put this under Mesa and pay a fair wage. Current Mesa pilots are paid a lot less than some of their counterparts and JO keeps trying to lower the bar vs maintain it or raise it. In many cases it is not a matter of being unable to pay pilots better as so many carriers claim. It is a matter of how much money the owners want to line their pockets with. Sad truth. The industry is in a period of change that will most likely last a lifetime but this doesn't mean the pilots should be paid less than the security screeners or a head fry cook at McDonalds. JO could easily give his employees across the board a raise. The airline is mis-managed. It is like a friend of mine at Eagle said. Management didn't want to pay the pilots another $1.50 an hour. He said it is so easy to slow the plane down and make that money back. If a company has happy employees it can and will be successful.

- AZPilot

 

[FlyinBrian]

I agree with all of your statements. My question remains, why the animostiy toward non-mesa pilots who go to work for freedom? Just because Skywest has better pay and work rules doesn't really mean much. It we go by that criterion, somone who works for Great Lakes is selling out the profession as well.

Just to be clear (and hopefully avoid some intense flame) I think the creation of freedom is a terrible thing for the industry, and Jhonny O may as well be Frank Lorenzo.

What I don't understand is trying to give near-scab status to any pilot who goes to work for freedom. Mesa pilots who cross to Freedom deserve such status. They should be committed to their own union. But it seems that if you're prepared to call non-Mesa Freedom pilots scabs, you have to throw a lot of other pilots underneath the same label. It would seem to me that unless we negotiated an industry-wide pay structure, anyone who works for less than industry average deserves the status that you are trying to assign to non-Mesa freedom pilots.

 

[tintube]

"I understand that America West would be going to another carrier for the 70 seat jets, thereby selling Mesa pilots out, but I don't beleive mesa pilots have anything in their contract to ensure that new AmWest express flying goes to them."

-Actually I belive that Mesa Air Group has a contract to fly the 70 and 90 seaters for AWA.
-------
"But if you're a pilot on the street looking for a job, what's the difference between going to Freedom and going to Skywest? Both are non-union carriers that will compete with other airlines for feeder business."


-Well, if you go to Skywest the pay and standar of living is considerably higher

With negotiation going on in Mesa I would be doing a lot of research and thinking before I was to start in ANY newly-started division ( especially a no-union one ) of a company currently in contract negotiating...........
Skywest might compete with other airlines but one question is will Freedom Airlines, a part of Mesa Airgroup end up compete against another part of Mesa Airgroup: Mesa Airlines?............

 

[tintube]

" My question remains, why the animostiy toward non-mesa pilots who go to work for freedom? "

There are not any non-mesa pilots flying for Freedom.

As far as I know they do not even have a approved certificate or manual yet. They started Ground school last week. With what I hear about the low # of Mesa pilots that actually asked to fly for Freedom, I guess that will only be a question of time before they have to hire from the street.

Heck, personally I do not care who fly for them. It should be a personal choise.

What I find find interresting though is that the pilots that leaves Mesa to go to Freedom gets 1 year LOA and will keep their seniority # at Mesa if they go back. What is the chance that I get a LOA if I was to leave Mesa to work for another carrier........

 

[AAflyer]

FlyinBrian,

Comparing great lakes to an airline that will be deploying 70-90 seat jets is like apples to oranges. It is pathetic what great Lakes gets paid, but paying jet pilots to fly for the same peanuts is worse. At least at Lakes and other commuters you are there to build time and get on with a better paying airline. If this continues there will not be any better paying airlines to goto.

I am not sure I would use the word scab, but if this type of company continues to grow it will cause wages across the board to eventually be lowered.

It is a personal choice, just like PFT. What it does to the profession is clear, what you want the profession to be for yourself and the next generation is up to you.

Where does it stop, next 90-110 seat jets. ( for all purposes you are flying 737,727-100,DC-9-10s,F-100,F-28s at commuter wages while Ornstein (Lorenzo types) line their pockets. Pilots will allow this not anyone else, no one is forcing anyone into the cockpit, and if someone tells you they have a family to feed, tell them to go work for the TSA. Being a screener these days pays more than many of regionals.

AAflyer

P.S. Yes, before anyone asks me that question in return. I would go work else where before I took a job flying a 90 seat jet as an fo for $18k. It is selling out the profession.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I guess it's supply and demand. I personally won't go to work for freedom because I respect the Mesa pilots, and have a good number of friends over there. I'm not sure that I'd be selling out the profession any more than a lot of other folks.

I fall back to the TSA and CHQ example. They are flying jets for cheaper than Eagle pilots, and taking jets and jobs from pilots who have a contractual right to the flying. Yet I don't hear anyone accusing them of selling out the profession. The animosity in that conflict is properly directed at the managment that allows this.

I guess this is just another facet of aviation that makes me dream about one list. If we allow our wages to go to market wages, we will be paid very poorly. There are lots of us willing to do the job. Usually, I am in favor of letting free markets run free. However, we've seen what happens in the airline industry without collective representation. In the interest of safety and professionalism, we need to bargain collectively. As long as there are A and B scale pilots on different seniority lists, we have no true collective baragaining power, and someone is going to fly jets for 18K a year. How can you blame them when the alternative is the unemployment line?

 

[AAflyer]

FlyinBrian,

Obviuosly something is wrong with the jets going to TSA and CHQ, as there is a lawsuit and meeting with the board scheduled shortly.

You are right, I can't change someone's mind who wants to pay for training, and if somone wants to fly a 100 seat jet for 18k, but please don't tell me you don't have a choice. Full time as a waiter, bar tender, secratary, security guard, department store clerk etc. etc. pays more money than that. If you truly can not see how this will change the biz then there is no point in going any further.

But remember one thing, whether in the cockpit, job interview, or daily rituals of life, everybody has a choice!!

AAflyer

 

[enigma]

Out of curiosity, what is the current pay rate for a mid-seniority Mesa 50 seat RJ Captain? What is the proposed 70 seat pay scale? I ask because Mesa was paying a few Brasilia captains almost $50K when I worked there 12 years ago. I have inquired about 50 seat RJ pay and have been told that Mesa's senior RJ Captains can make over $80K at the present.

IF that is the case, this freedom gig may not be that bad (assuming that it is legal I don't know about that issue), nor is Mesa. Unfortunately, for all of the lip service paid to "unity" there are still more pilots than jobs, and in todays market, the pressure on wages is downward. If a pilot can fly and make $80K or more per year, maybe he should take it. That's the way the industry is going and it is still more money than the average working man makes. Those of us at the middle, (me) and those of you at the regional level, no longer have an overpaid major pilot to compare ourselves to; those guys are on furlough, or are looking at a big pay cut. I believe that it is entirely possible that SWA will be the standard within 5 years, not UAL. In that light, JohnnyO and his overgrown Challengers don't seem so bad.

regards
8N

PS, I'm not advocating working for less, just recognizing reality. This is not PFT, yet; so I won't equate it as such. It's just the market at work.

 

[Timebuilder]

Considering how many pilots feel about ALPA, and the condition of the aviation business, I can easily see how Southwest will be the standard in a few years. In this post-regulation environment, there is nothing to stop their success, or their growth.

A sumo wrestler may have great strength and inertia, but I can turn quicker and beat him in both a sprint and a marathon. What we have known as "major" airlines are the "sumos" of aviation, and companies like Southwest are lean and agile, like the judoka.

The Japanese say "warkaremas", meaning "I understand". The majors need to gain "understanding" in order to survive.

 

[doubleeagle140]

I keep hearing that CHQ and TSA pilots are undercutting the eagle pilots out there to steal their flying. I am a CHQ captain and I totally disagree with that statement. I just want to ask any Eagle pilot out there what their pay rate is for a 4th year captain on the E-145. I will bet that we at CHQ make at least the same and probably more. We here at CHQ turned down a contract last summer with pay rates in the Comair/ACA range to go back to the table for a better one. And if you want to talk about quality of life issues, then as a 4th year captain, can you consistantly get lines of flying with 17-18 days off, all weekends off, and still fly 85 hours a month. Also we hear at CHQ do not have Junior Manning. So, before you make the statement that we hear at CHQ are undercutting you, please look into your statements.