Freedumb Air, Just don't do it!!

[AAflyer]

timebuilder,

This is a battle in a long war, I would not be so quick to say SWA will be leading the pack in pilot pay (AND BENEFITS).One only needs to look at history,it is ever changing and NO ONE can predict the future, you would be a fool to do so (or very rich). Some sumos have fallen, others are currently on Jenny Craig, and taking Kung Fu. It ain't over till the fat lady sings.

AAflyer

 

[Timebuilder]

That's funny, and I needed a laugh!

I didn't mean to suggest that Southwest would necessarily LEAD in pay and benefits. I meant that their type of labor arrangement and the level of pilot compensation could very likely become the norm in the next few years. Soutwest is clearly emerging as the Royce Gracie of the field, and as BJJ fighter will tell you, brazilian Jiu Jitsu is more effective than Gung Fu, shaolin or otherwise.

Sorry for the martial arts metaphor. Southwest is kicking hiney, and it looks as though that formula will become a leading force in our industry.

Just a guess...

 

[AAflyer]

Timebuilder,

I guess the student has become the teacher, I have lots to learn...grasshopper!!! HA HA..

I see what you say, regardless it should be a fun show to watch.

AAflyer

 

[TSA ERJ]

I agree with doubleeagle140,
I don't know anything about Eagle's pay rates, but I would be willing to bet TSA and CHQ's contracts match or surpass Eagle's in most areas. There is more to running an operation less expensively than just pilot pay.

 

[rightrudder]

I don't think there is such a thing as a 4th year ERJ145 Ca at Eagle. I bet the pilots at Eagle wish there were.

 

[liljetdriver]

I thought I may shed a little light on the topic of CHQ undercutting Eagle. I can understand the frustration of Eagle drivers in the way AMR continues to bend them over. BOHICA must be embroidered on their flight cases. I'm done listening to the rhetoric that the only reason CHQ is flying these routes is because we are undercutting scabs. Here are some facts:

CHQ contract signed OCT '98
4th year captain EMB-145 = $55.68
top out year 15 $76.43

AAE contract signed SEP '97
4th year captain EMB-145 = $51.08
top out year 18 $72.65

This information is from V1rotate.com. There is a download section with contracts from almost any airline. Some new contracts are not yet updated so my information from Eagle is only as good as that download. If anyone from Eagle cares to dispute it, this forum is available to do so. The CHQ info is valid since I have a contract in my flight bag. I didn't copy the Eagle F/O rates. They may or may not be better. Our F/Os like everywhere else in the regional industry, are underpaid. A point we intend to correct with a new contract. Which was amendable last OCT. Our MEC is making progress every day with our new contract and I doubt anything less than a 10% raise will be sent to the group for a vote. Eagle is stuck with their abomination for what, 8-9 more years. Sorry guys, you lowered the bar yourselves.

AMR is in business with CHQ for one reason. We perform. 99.1% departures and 80-85% within A'14 consistantly. I can't speak for Eagle but read USA Today for a week. Tell me which airline is consitantly rated worse for complaints, cancellations, lost bags etc. As TWE we provided dependable feed service for TWA. AMR simply took us along for the ride with all the other TWA assets. AS far as all this reverse code-share crap, how is this CHQ's fault. We continue to provide the service we are contracted to do.

Like I said before, what AMR has done in the past to its pilot groups is horrendous. That's why I like working at CHQ. We can grow through any of our code shares. If AMR tries to whipsaw us, fine. We will take our jets, options, and talented pilots and find new places to put them. Be it US Airways, American West or Delta. You couldn't pay me enough to work for a wholly-owned regional carrier. You guys have no leverage at all with the hand that feeds you.

 

[AAflyer]

The ONLY reason you are getting jets is to circumvent the ASM cap that Eagle is operating under. It has nothing to do with your on-time departures. AMR is getting creative with code-shares, and non-code-shares but flight schedules matching up.

AMR always has a bottom line,and they will do anything to pinch a penny.

AAflyer

 

[FlyinBrian]

AMR simply took us along for the ride with all the other TWA assets.

You left out the words "in violotaion of their contract with American Eagle's pilots,"

I have said over and over again that I don't hold your pilots responsible. But the agreement between AMR and your companies is illegal, and violates our contract. It's not your fault, but it's not your flying. AMR should work on having its own companies perform, and not illegally write its own people off and dump them on the street while helping TSA and CHQ grow.

 

[metrodriver]

I have to agree with flying Brian. I'm also furloughed (already before sept11), and any flying job would be better than the $8.- /hr I make now. Maybe the same pay, but at least I would be doing what I love and studied for. The bad thing of this whole RJ business is that airlines are trying to get away with this as a way to cut cost. Filling up the sky and the airports is not going to help the "passenger convenience" like the airlines are saying, you just create more gridlock. And as long as there are to many pilots and not enough airplanes, folks like Ornstein can get away with paying pilots a burgerflipper salary. If we ever have a situation where there are not enough pilots anymore to fly these rj's, companies like these will start to hurt real fast. Till then....... hopefully someone will take a look at my resume and say hey, this guy deserves a job, got a lot of time, eventhough he hasn't flown for a while.
(the standard excuse from the likes of asa,comair, skywest ,...).

 

[tintube]

"I have inquired about 50 seat RJ pay and have been told that Mesa's senior RJ Captains can make over $80K at the present. "
----------
- do not think to many Capts at Mesa makes that kind of money, mabe not even a senior one( but I might be wrong on that one ).
Belive the average Capt pulls inn in the upper 50ks / lower 60ks.
The problem is that there is no WX or MX pay-protection and no duty rig.

The payscale for Freedom seems to be held kind of "hidden" and hard to get hold on. The one time I read Freedoms contract I also noticed that it stated that management has authority to change any part of it by their discretion.............

This is from one site:
Eagle's pay ( on 70 seaters ) is $2-$5 per hour less than industry average ( for 70 seater ) , and Freedom's pay ( including 90 seater, I belive, ) 1%-3% less than that.

-So they will be flying a 90 seater for a few lousy % higher than the average 50 seater scale, if I read this correct.

 

[enigma]

Tintube,
I actually know a senior Mesa Captain, who told me that he would make in the $80K range. I don't talk to him much, but we used to share a 1900 cockpit in the New Mexico airforce, so I believe that he is being honest when he tells me that number. I probably should have given this inf. in my first post.

You wrote that Mesa pilots have no WX, or MX pay protection. Is there no monthly guarantee? Heck, we had no WX or MX protection when I started there twelve years ago, but Rollie Bergeson changed that sometime in 1992. If you're correct, that would mean that the Mesa MEC gave it up in your intitial contract negotiations.

regards,
8N

 

[tintube]

I guess some can make 80k in Mesa but I am not convinced that to many does.....
No MX or Wx cancelleation pay, but there is a 70hrs guarrantee pr bid ( 28 days ) . Hopefully the new contract ( being negotiated these days ) will cover MX + WX.

 

[surplus1]

Well, I read all the posts from A to Z and now it's my turn to meddle in the stew. I have some questions and some comments and I'd sure like to know what you all think about them. I can take the heat if that's what you feel is warranted.

Act I, Scene 1

Orenstein starts a new airline to (he says openly) circumvent the restriction imposed by USAirways pilots, which would have prevented him from operating 70/90 seat jets under contract with America West. Coincidentally, the new airline will also give JO more leverage in contract negotiations with Mesa pilots who (as far as I know) don't fly 70-seat or 90-seat jets for anyone. Since this "new airline" is new, it will be non-union.

ALPA cries foul, calls him the second Lorenzo and a lot of other names. Mesa pilots are furious and accuse him of doing it to "undercut" their contract negotiations. Mesa pilots and others, are begining to call pilots who might fly for Feedom "Scabs" and threaten all sorts of retaliation.

Act I, Scene 2

US AirGroup gets into financial trouble. Retrenches and furloughs pilots. Wants to operate large numbers of "regional jets" but can't do so because USAirways pilots have Scope that prevents them from flying more regional jets.

ALPA and UMEC come up with a scheme called "Jets for Jobs". It will give USAG the right to operate 70 additional regional jets, provided USAirways furloughed pilots get to fly 50% of them. Problem is all the airlines that would operate these new regional jets are represented by ALPA and have contracts that protect their seniority and pay them in accordance with that seniority.

ALPA says that doesn't matter. The USAirways pilots get the jobs anyway with super seniority and they will be paid more money for the same jobs. Several of the affected regional carriers say "no way" we aren't doing it. First to say NO, are the non-union pilots of Skywest (gutsy move). Next to say NO are the Teamster represented pilots of Chautauqua. The ALPA pilots at TSA, don't accept the "deal" but they don't really say no either. The Mesa pilots are silent. ALPA finds "other ways" to stop the CCAir pilots from saying yes.

ALPA ain't happy, so ALPA and the UMEC cut a new deal called LOA81, (additional RJs increas to 395) which expands the option of acceptance to the USAir Group regional subsidiaries of ALG/PDT/PSA. Meanwhile, things are worse at USAG, so ALPA cuts another deal. The new deal will create a new airline subsidiary at USAG. First they call it Potomac then they change Potomac's name to Mid Atlantic.

We've heard of Potomac before. Once upon a time ALPA was going to sue USAG to prevent Potomac from flying or so they said. That was to protect the ALG/PDT guys. Of course back then, the USAirways pilots weren't looking for work so that was "different". Now that they are, we don't need to protect the regional guys any more, instead we need to screw them.

Conveniently, Mid Atlantic bypasses the contracts of ALG/PDT/PSA, but ALPA says that's OK because USAG has agreed to "recognize ALPA" (at Mid Atlantic). [It's bad if Freedom does that at Mesa, but It's cool if MDA does it at ALG/PDT/PSA.]

IF the other ALPA regionals don't agree to Jets for Jobs, don't agree to give up their seniority and don't agree to abrogate their contracts, then ALL of the new jets will go to Mid Atlantic, where they will be flown exclusively by furloughed USAirways pilots. When the pilots at ALG/PDT/PSA protest, ALPA tells them where the rubber meets the road. Either agree to this "deal" or you get no jets at all and you'll eventually be put out of business. BTW, when you do agree, there is no guarantee that you will get any jets, but you might and, you have to give up your furlough protection too. Sign here or else.

My questions are simple. 1) What in the h_ll is the difference between Mid Atlantic and Freedom? 2) Is Mid Atlantic better than Freedom because the Company will recognize ALPA? 3) Why is Orenstein an SOB for starting a new airline to get around contracts, but ALPA is a champion for starting a new airline to get around contracts? 4) How come nobody is calling the pilots who will fly for Mid Atlantic scabs? [At least the pilots who fly for Freedom will not be replacing pilots that fly for Mesa, but the pilots that fly for Mid Atlantic and any that fly at ALG/PDT or PSA, will be replacing pilots that already work at those three regionals.]

Act 2, Scene 1

Not too long ago ALPA wanted the pilots of another airline to join ALPA. More than 1000 scabs are still flying at that airline. ALPA said "all is forgiven", they were admitted in good standing and some of them are now elected ALPA officials. Why then do some of you want to call pilots that have crossed no picket line, scabs? Why do you want to blackball them, when they have not yet taken one single job from anyone and have not replaced a single Mesa pilot? How come we can't forgive them if they fly for Freedom?

Sorry I'm so stupid, but you have me totally confused with the obvious double standard. My simple mind tells me that what ALPA is doing to its own members at USAir regionals is a lot worse that what Orenstein is doing by starting Freedom. JO never promised to represent pilots, he just hires them. ALPA not only promised to represent pilots but has accepted money for doing it, and is using that money to take jobs from one group of ALPA pilots and give them to a different group of ALPA pilots. Why are you complaining about Orenstein but you are NOT complaining about ALPA? Tell me why I'm such an idiot and can't understand this. It seems to me that you object to rape but approve of incest.

Act 2, Scene 2

On a separate subject, the Eagle guys are angry at the TSA and CHQ guys because they 1) continue to do the flying they were doing for TWA before AMR bought it and 2) because AMR has sold 14 jets to TSA that once belonged to Eagle, and 3) because AMR has figured out how to get around AA Scope. Yet no one is mentioning that Eagle is replacing those 50-seat jets, with 70-seat jets and the ONLY reason AMR has to get rid of them is because the American pilots have a Scope clause that won't let Eagle fly more than 67 jets with more than 45 seats.

Eagle isn't furloughing pilots due to the fling at TSA or CHQ. Eagle is furloughing pilots due to the Scope clause at American. Period. Meanwhile, ALPA is inviting the APA to participate in Eagle negotiations and "share the jobs" that might come from the return of the 14 Eagle aircraft that were sold and the Eagle pilots appear to agree.

The Eagle pilots are calling TSA and CHQ pilots names, but the same Eagle pilots are having a make-believe love in with the AA pilots. Why? Because the APA said it would be a good idea to have one list, provided they could first take ALL the Eagle jets, to be flown by AA pilots and then, if there was anything left, they would put the remaining Eagle pilots on the bottom of their "list". Such a deal! [If there ever was a sucker punch, that's it and the "suckers" are not the AA pilots.]

Act 3

Chautauqa pilots say they don't get deals because their Company is the "lowest bidder". They get deals because they have a great performance record. I guess that great performance record is why Delta just hired them and they had to by 22 new jets to replace Comair's Florida domicile. Comair had to close its Florida base. I guess Comair's "performance" just can't compare to CHQ's. CHQ just runs a better operation. By the way, I'm selling my swamp land in Florida. Any CHQ pilots want to buy it?

I have no axe to grind with CHQ pilots, but face it guys, your Company got that Delta deal because they were CHEAPER, it had nothing to do with your "performance".

Finale

I have no doubt that Freedom makes it very difficult for the Mesa guys to negotiate a fair contract and I think that's not a good thing, and it sucks. But, people who accept jobs at Freedom are not scabs.

I also think that Mid Atlantic doesn't just make it difficult for the ALG/PDT/PSA pilots, it makes it impossible. They have been coerced and forced, by their own labor union, to relinquish their seniority and their jobs, to the same unions "preferred membership". That doesn't just suck people, it is rotten to the core.

Are you Mesa pilots going to agree to Jets for Jobs too or will ALPA give you a dispensation? Will you get any of the new USAG jets if you don't give up your seniority to the USAirways pilots? Does ALPA love you more than it loves the other regional pilots? Work hard and negotiate good Captain rates, the U pilots need the higher pay even if none of them can make less than $50/hr as copilots. How much does a Mesa co-pilot make?

Aren't your ALPA buddies at AWA busily trying to negotiate away the jobs you have now and transfer the regional jets to themselves? Are they going to give you jobs over there for your jets? Don't they want the 70 and 90-seat RJs for themselves too? If Freedom doesn't fly and the AWA guys get those RJs instead, do you think Mesa pilots will be flying them? How many of those 50-seat jets you have now will they continue to "let you fly" after ALPA gets them their new Scope?

What are you all going to do tomorrow when ALPA decides to draw the RJ line at 37-seats so that some "preferred major" can fly all the RJs above that seat range. If they can draw the line at 50-seats, what is to stop them from drawing it at 37 when they have the opportunity? Think they won't do it because you are "ALPA members"? Better think again. They have shown you what they will do. You all suffering from the S syndrome?

Who knows maybe I'm all wrong and they won't draw the line at 37, they'll just copy the APA model and take them all, without you of course.

PS. There's a sale on KY at the local drug store. If you're a regional pilot in ALPA you'd better stock up. You're going to need it.

 

[MetroSheriff]

That's why I like working at CHQ. We can grow through any of our code shares. If AMR tries to whipsaw us, fine. We will take our jets, options, and talented pilots and find new places to put them. Be it US Airways, American West or Delta. You couldn't pay me enough to work for a wholly-owned regional carrier. You guys have no leverage at all with the hand that feeds you.

Slut...

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Liljetdriver quoted:
"CHQ contract signed OCT '98
4th year captain EMB-145 = $55.68
top out year 15 $76.43

AAE contract signed SEP '97
4th year captain EMB-145 = $51.08
top out year 18 $72.65"


Your numbers are old dude. As pathetic as our pay scales are they are still better then yours. You ARE undercutting the eagle pilots.

AE 4th year CPT 145 is 53.52
top out is 83.16

Additionally Eagle labor costs are probably much higher then Chitaqua and transtates because as a whole our pilot groups are much more senior. There is no such thing as a 4 yr jet Captain at eagle. Our jet Captains are somewhere aound 10 years. This is because of our management giving OUR flying to your substandard companies. Before you post information do your research.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Even though a junior CHQ jet cpt makes more/ hr that is irrelevant because eagle doesn't have junior jet captains. Our Captains top out higher. I would also care to venture that our benies are a little more expensive then CHQ's.

P.S. as always I do not hold the pilots of Chitaqua or Transtates at fault. This blame lies with our sleazy management types.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

one more for the record

Surplus:
You seem to know it all. Or at least have nothing better to do then spend all your free time on this board. What makes you think the Eagle pilots will settle for a deal that will put us on the street? The eagle pilots I have spoken too will not settle for anything that doesn't give us job protections. So you need to get off your soap box. We want to combine with AA yes. It can only improve things for our carreers as well as AA's if it is done in the right way. Just because Delta wants nothing to do with you PFT types doesn't mean that you should resent us for trying to better THE PROFESSION by eliminating the distinction between regional and major.

Thats all I have to say about that

 

[tintube]

"Are you Mesa pilots going to agree to Jets for Jobs too or will ALPA give you a dispensation? Will you get any of the new USAG jets if you don't give up your seniority to the USAirways pilots?"

---------

------Us pilots at Mesa has not yet voted for the j4j yet. Not much talk about it either. Belive Mng wants it if the cost for this is not to high. The question I will then ask is what is Mng willing to give the pilot-group @ Mesa in return.
I do not think there has ever being a question about giving up seniority to the USAirways pilot, but as I said, we have not seen any official proposal about j4j.
---------------------

"Aren't your ALPA buddies at AWA busily trying to negotiate away the jobs you have now and transfer the regional jets to themselves? Are they going to give you jobs over there for your jets? Don't they want the 70 and 90-seat RJs for themselves too? If Freedom doesn't fly and the AWA guys get those RJs instead, do you think Mesa pilots will be flying them?

------Freedom start-up was really based on scope and salary. The scope is gone but the pay-issue remains. I wish someone was able to explain me the need to start up a different ( nonunion ) certificate to avoid negotiation about pay-issues. Most companies are able to work out a deal specially if you take in consideration the great expence of obtain a new certificate+ train the crews from scratch, MX, scedueler, management etc,etc v/s a 2 day differential taining session......well, that is unless there are other plans for use of that certificate...........
I would assume that AWA want to fly the 700 and 900s and if AWA pilots are willing to fly the 700 / 900 cheaper than Mesa is able to negotiate that fine with me. (and called competition. )

 

[FlyinBrian]

Surplus, while I appreciate your analysis, I don't think you fully understand the very complex situation at AMR.

AMR has indeed found away around APA's scope clause. It's the same way they get around Eagle's scope languange: They just violate it. They are illegally transferring operations from Eagle to illegally exceed the ASM cap imposed by APA. AMR is totally unwilling to sit down with APA and Eagle ALPA to figure out a good solution that protects the jobs of all of AMR's pilots. Instead, they are violating their contracts with both Eagle ALPA and APA. I hope that helps you understand why Eagle pilots are upset. It is because the TSA and CHQ flying is ILLEGAL. AMR should have to play by the rules. To put it frankly, if we can't do the flying, nobody can. Perhaps you think that's selfish, but that's what our contract says. By allowing AMR to outsource, they can continue to pull in extra cash at their own pilots' expense. That's not right.

I think you will find that most comments that Eagle pilots make are NOT directed at the pilots of CHQ and TSA. They are just doing their jobs. Their right to fly the old TWE routes died with TWA. They hitched their wagon to a dying horse. I don't blame them for continuing to fly; I'd do the same thing. But I do expect that they will respect us as we try to reclaim our planes and our jobs, and understand that it isn't personal.

 

[Tim47SIP]

What a mess!

ap27 -
"You seem to know it all. Or at least have nothing better to do then spend all your free time on this board. What makes you think the Eagle pilots will settle for a deal that will put us on the street? "

Hhmmmm, maybe by your track record?

tintube-
"Freedom start-up was really based on scope and salary. The scope is gone but the pay-issue remains. I wish someone was able to explain me the need to start up a different ( nonunion ) certificate to avoid negotiation about pay-issues. "

Are you talking about the U scope stating that no U contract carrier may own any jet over 70 seats? Is that scope gone? If it is still in effect, exactly how does Mesa fly for another carrier that wants 70-90 seat aircraft. Just simply say "oh well, U mainline says no so we cant do it. If U mainline says we cant have those aircraft even though they will never be allowed to fly any U routes, they must be right!

FlyinB-
"AMR has indeed found away around APA's scope clause. It's the same way they get around Eagle's scope languange: They just violate it. They are illegally transferring operations from Eagle to illegally exceed the ASM cap imposed by APA. AMR is totally unwilling to sit down with APA and Eagle ALPA to figure out a good solution that protects the jobs of all of AMR's pilots. Instead, they are violating their contracts with both Eagle ALPA and APA. I hope that helps you understand why Eagle pilots are upset. It is because the TSA and CHQ flying is ILLEGAL. AMR should have to play by the rules. To put it frankly, if we can't do the flying, nobody can. Perhaps you think that's selfish, but that's what our contract says. By allowing AMR to outsource, they can continue to pull in extra cash at their own pilots' expense. That's not right."

Agreed on all counts, but Surplus is correct, you yourself in your above statement are saying the same thing. It is AMR's and APA' scope that is the problem. The contract carriers are not the blame and are not "stealing" your flying, scope (right or wrong) is causing management to circumnavigate your and APA's contracts. That is where your energy should be placed.

Surplus, personally I dont see any difference between Freedom and Mid Atlantic other than one suits ALPA's needs and the other one is merely fighting ALPA's fire with fire. Mesa is just giving ALPA back some of its own medicine and ALPA is not hapy. I think it comes down to merely nothing more that Mr O showing ALPA who's boss, and ALPA trying to do the same. I wonder if the furloughed U drivers were offered employment there for the J4J rates and terms if they would take them? That would be pretty intersting to watch.
Flame away!