Freedumb Air, Just don't do it!!

[FlyinBrian]

I guess it's supply and demand. I personally won't go to work for freedom because I respect the Mesa pilots, and have a good number of friends over there. I'm not sure that I'd be selling out the profession any more than a lot of other folks.

I fall back to the TSA and CHQ example. They are flying jets for cheaper than Eagle pilots, and taking jets and jobs from pilots who have a contractual right to the flying. Yet I don't hear anyone accusing them of selling out the profession. The animosity in that conflict is properly directed at the managment that allows this.

I guess this is just another facet of aviation that makes me dream about one list. If we allow our wages to go to market wages, we will be paid very poorly. There are lots of us willing to do the job. Usually, I am in favor of letting free markets run free. However, we've seen what happens in the airline industry without collective representation. In the interest of safety and professionalism, we need to bargain collectively. As long as there are A and B scale pilots on different seniority lists, we have no true collective baragaining power, and someone is going to fly jets for 18K a year. How can you blame them when the alternative is the unemployment line?

 

[AAflyer]

FlyinBrian,

Obviuosly something is wrong with the jets going to TSA and CHQ, as there is a lawsuit and meeting with the board scheduled shortly.

You are right, I can't change someone's mind who wants to pay for training, and if somone wants to fly a 100 seat jet for 18k, but please don't tell me you don't have a choice. Full time as a waiter, bar tender, secratary, security guard, department store clerk etc. etc. pays more money than that. If you truly can not see how this will change the biz then there is no point in going any further.

But remember one thing, whether in the cockpit, job interview, or daily rituals of life, everybody has a choice!!

AAflyer

 

[enigma]

Out of curiosity, what is the current pay rate for a mid-seniority Mesa 50 seat RJ Captain? What is the proposed 70 seat pay scale? I ask because Mesa was paying a few Brasilia captains almost $50K when I worked there 12 years ago. I have inquired about 50 seat RJ pay and have been told that Mesa's senior RJ Captains can make over $80K at the present.

IF that is the case, this freedom gig may not be that bad (assuming that it is legal I don't know about that issue), nor is Mesa. Unfortunately, for all of the lip service paid to "unity" there are still more pilots than jobs, and in todays market, the pressure on wages is downward. If a pilot can fly and make $80K or more per year, maybe he should take it. That's the way the industry is going and it is still more money than the average working man makes. Those of us at the middle, (me) and those of you at the regional level, no longer have an overpaid major pilot to compare ourselves to; those guys are on furlough, or are looking at a big pay cut. I believe that it is entirely possible that SWA will be the standard within 5 years, not UAL. In that light, JohnnyO and his overgrown Challengers don't seem so bad.

regards
8N

PS, I'm not advocating working for less, just recognizing reality. This is not PFT, yet; so I won't equate it as such. It's just the market at work.

 

[Timebuilder]

Considering how many pilots feel about ALPA, and the condition of the aviation business, I can easily see how Southwest will be the standard in a few years. In this post-regulation environment, there is nothing to stop their success, or their growth.

A sumo wrestler may have great strength and inertia, but I can turn quicker and beat him in both a sprint and a marathon. What we have known as "major" airlines are the "sumos" of aviation, and companies like Southwest are lean and agile, like the judoka.

The Japanese say "warkaremas", meaning "I understand". The majors need to gain "understanding" in order to survive.

 

[doubleeagle140]

I keep hearing that CHQ and TSA pilots are undercutting the eagle pilots out there to steal their flying. I am a CHQ captain and I totally disagree with that statement. I just want to ask any Eagle pilot out there what their pay rate is for a 4th year captain on the E-145. I will bet that we at CHQ make at least the same and probably more. We here at CHQ turned down a contract last summer with pay rates in the Comair/ACA range to go back to the table for a better one. And if you want to talk about quality of life issues, then as a 4th year captain, can you consistantly get lines of flying with 17-18 days off, all weekends off, and still fly 85 hours a month. Also we hear at CHQ do not have Junior Manning. So, before you make the statement that we hear at CHQ are undercutting you, please look into your statements.

 

[AAflyer]

timebuilder,

This is a battle in a long war, I would not be so quick to say SWA will be leading the pack in pilot pay (AND BENEFITS).One only needs to look at history,it is ever changing and NO ONE can predict the future, you would be a fool to do so (or very rich). Some sumos have fallen, others are currently on Jenny Craig, and taking Kung Fu. It ain't over till the fat lady sings.

AAflyer

 

[Timebuilder]

That's funny, and I needed a laugh!

I didn't mean to suggest that Southwest would necessarily LEAD in pay and benefits. I meant that their type of labor arrangement and the level of pilot compensation could very likely become the norm in the next few years. Soutwest is clearly emerging as the Royce Gracie of the field, and as BJJ fighter will tell you, brazilian Jiu Jitsu is more effective than Gung Fu, shaolin or otherwise.

Sorry for the martial arts metaphor. Southwest is kicking hiney, and it looks as though that formula will become a leading force in our industry.

Just a guess...

 

[AAflyer]

Timebuilder,

I guess the student has become the teacher, I have lots to learn...grasshopper!!! HA HA..

I see what you say, regardless it should be a fun show to watch.

AAflyer

 

[TSA ERJ]

I agree with doubleeagle140,
I don't know anything about Eagle's pay rates, but I would be willing to bet TSA and CHQ's contracts match or surpass Eagle's in most areas. There is more to running an operation less expensively than just pilot pay.

 

[rightrudder]

I don't think there is such a thing as a 4th year ERJ145 Ca at Eagle. I bet the pilots at Eagle wish there were.

 

[liljetdriver]

I thought I may shed a little light on the topic of CHQ undercutting Eagle. I can understand the frustration of Eagle drivers in the way AMR continues to bend them over. BOHICA must be embroidered on their flight cases. I'm done listening to the rhetoric that the only reason CHQ is flying these routes is because we are undercutting scabs. Here are some facts:

CHQ contract signed OCT '98
4th year captain EMB-145 = $55.68
top out year 15 $76.43

AAE contract signed SEP '97
4th year captain EMB-145 = $51.08
top out year 18 $72.65

This information is from V1rotate.com. There is a download section with contracts from almost any airline. Some new contracts are not yet updated so my information from Eagle is only as good as that download. If anyone from Eagle cares to dispute it, this forum is available to do so. The CHQ info is valid since I have a contract in my flight bag. I didn't copy the Eagle F/O rates. They may or may not be better. Our F/Os like everywhere else in the regional industry, are underpaid. A point we intend to correct with a new contract. Which was amendable last OCT. Our MEC is making progress every day with our new contract and I doubt anything less than a 10% raise will be sent to the group for a vote. Eagle is stuck with their abomination for what, 8-9 more years. Sorry guys, you lowered the bar yourselves.

AMR is in business with CHQ for one reason. We perform. 99.1% departures and 80-85% within A'14 consistantly. I can't speak for Eagle but read USA Today for a week. Tell me which airline is consitantly rated worse for complaints, cancellations, lost bags etc. As TWE we provided dependable feed service for TWA. AMR simply took us along for the ride with all the other TWA assets. AS far as all this reverse code-share crap, how is this CHQ's fault. We continue to provide the service we are contracted to do.

Like I said before, what AMR has done in the past to its pilot groups is horrendous. That's why I like working at CHQ. We can grow through any of our code shares. If AMR tries to whipsaw us, fine. We will take our jets, options, and talented pilots and find new places to put them. Be it US Airways, American West or Delta. You couldn't pay me enough to work for a wholly-owned regional carrier. You guys have no leverage at all with the hand that feeds you.

 

[AAflyer]

The ONLY reason you are getting jets is to circumvent the ASM cap that Eagle is operating under. It has nothing to do with your on-time departures. AMR is getting creative with code-shares, and non-code-shares but flight schedules matching up.

AMR always has a bottom line,and they will do anything to pinch a penny.

AAflyer

 

[FlyinBrian]

AMR simply took us along for the ride with all the other TWA assets.

You left out the words "in violotaion of their contract with American Eagle's pilots,"

I have said over and over again that I don't hold your pilots responsible. But the agreement between AMR and your companies is illegal, and violates our contract. It's not your fault, but it's not your flying. AMR should work on having its own companies perform, and not illegally write its own people off and dump them on the street while helping TSA and CHQ grow.

 

[metrodriver]

I have to agree with flying Brian. I'm also furloughed (already before sept11), and any flying job would be better than the $8.- /hr I make now. Maybe the same pay, but at least I would be doing what I love and studied for. The bad thing of this whole RJ business is that airlines are trying to get away with this as a way to cut cost. Filling up the sky and the airports is not going to help the "passenger convenience" like the airlines are saying, you just create more gridlock. And as long as there are to many pilots and not enough airplanes, folks like Ornstein can get away with paying pilots a burgerflipper salary. If we ever have a situation where there are not enough pilots anymore to fly these rj's, companies like these will start to hurt real fast. Till then....... hopefully someone will take a look at my resume and say hey, this guy deserves a job, got a lot of time, eventhough he hasn't flown for a while.
(the standard excuse from the likes of asa,comair, skywest ,...).

 

[tintube]

"I have inquired about 50 seat RJ pay and have been told that Mesa's senior RJ Captains can make over $80K at the present. "
----------
- do not think to many Capts at Mesa makes that kind of money, mabe not even a senior one( but I might be wrong on that one ).
Belive the average Capt pulls inn in the upper 50ks / lower 60ks.
The problem is that there is no WX or MX pay-protection and no duty rig.

The payscale for Freedom seems to be held kind of "hidden" and hard to get hold on. The one time I read Freedoms contract I also noticed that it stated that management has authority to change any part of it by their discretion.............

This is from one site:
Eagle's pay ( on 70 seaters ) is $2-$5 per hour less than industry average ( for 70 seater ) , and Freedom's pay ( including 90 seater, I belive, ) 1%-3% less than that.

-So they will be flying a 90 seater for a few lousy % higher than the average 50 seater scale, if I read this correct.