Freedom's Baaaaack!

[Crossky]

crossky,

since you are a legal expert, please explain "fighting freedom in the courts"? the union recommended the contract because it significantly RAISED their rates (ie the senior leadership). we have a weak union whose slogan is "go ahead do it and grieve it", however such, your condescending attitude shows you to be a blowhard. there are mvmts to remove the current leadership and all we can do is hope.

jo needs freedom to stay afloat. the faa was warned about this "bargaining" certificate and he must show it to not be one. we have the power here, but alas too many want to goto PHX for a ready reserve slot. SAD. he also wants 250hr san juaners in the rt seat of a 737. he is crazy.

QUOTE]

Stop it, I never said that, You're putting words in my mouth. But since you asked, here's it in plain language: Mesa ALPA should have requested and put pressure on ALPA national to put their attorneys (your and our attorneys) to work by filing a multi-million dollar lawsuit against JO and Mesa for railway labor act violations. God know there are enough lawyers available.

Additional things which should have been done:
1. Every pilot file a grievance for violation of the contract by starting an illiegal non-union alter ego carrier - a classic union busting effort by JO. Your old contract did have a non-union / alter ego clause, didn't it?
2. Mesa ALPA and ALPA national should've started a regional and national PR campaign.

Even you admit yourself that Mesa has enough pilot whores ready to fly a freedom PHX 1900 or 737. Justifies the outcome that your pilot group voted yes to an industry lowering contract in exchange for JO to promise to stop Freedom (until now at least). Mesa ALPA and National ALPA should've worked together to stop Freedom through lawsuits and court proceedings.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

this is the kind of ignorance that I was talking about..

Mesa Airlines had scope protection under the previous contract. That is why management created Mesa Air Group - the holding company which then controlled Mesa Airlines and soon purchased CCAir (let the whipsawing begin). There was no Mesa Air Group at the signing of the previous contract and therefore no language preventing Mesa Air Group from starting Freedumb Airlines.

Lawsuits were filed. I don't remember the exact nature of these, but I believe Mesa ALPA tried to make the case that the intent of the previous contract was scope protection, which should apply even though the company structure has changed. The lawsuits were not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, lawsuits take time. Meanwhile Freedumb was taking delivery of all Mesa Air Group's new jets (except maybe some ERJs on the East Coast - don't remember), and would have continued to grow rapidly...or so it was thought. Freedumb would grow and Mesa would die a slow and certain death. Mesa has done it before...they just as easily would have done it again. Remember what happened to West Air? What's that? You say you don't remember a West Air? You should try to get the scoop on that. They pretty much did it to CCAir as well. Although with this contract we were able to save some of the CCAir guys jobs.

ALPA national was very interested and involved. These tactics reminded them of Lorenzo and they did not want JO to succeed with Freedumb. Not sure the lengths to which ALPA national went though.

Why didn't we just strike? Well, you don't just decide you want to strike and then do it. You have to be given permission to strike. (You also have to remember the state of the economy and airline industry and keep that in context.) The thought was that negotiations might drag on for years. That is what happened at West Air, and I believe the CCAir contract talks lasted quite some time also, and mangagement was slowly but surely killing CCAir. For those of us based in PHX we could see that the America West pilots contract talks lasted several years. The thought of having the talks drag on and on...and seeing Freedumb growing while Mesa shrinks...CCAir would have been long gone...the situation did not appear to be very pleasant.

Heard enough? I am sick of telling the story. But, as I said there is so much ignorance out there and people are too quick to judge. Guys that work at companies like SkyWest ,Horizon and others don't know the situation here. Their managements get it. Their managements know how to treat employees well and run a great airline. Mesa Air Group doesn't give a rats a$$. They just don't care. As long as the code-share partners are happy and they can add to their Harley Davidson collection, they are satisfied.

As for the Freedumb certificate - one BE-1900 will be placed on the certificate within a week or two. JO probably wants to keep this certificate alive as part of a contigency plan should US Airways go under. I was surprised to hear about the ad for new hires for this Freedumb 1900. Regardless of who flys this aircraft, the pilots will all be from or placed on the Mesa seniority list.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

re: Mesa's "weak union"

I keep hearing this over and over about Mesa's "weak union".

CitationLover - I would not say that we have a "weak union". From what I understand this is the way all labor contracts work. A contract is signed (hopefully the intent of each section is clearly spelled out), and each party has their own interpretation of the meaning of the contract. If labor does not like management's interpretation then labor has the right to file a grievance. That is the process. It is not Mesa ALPA's weakness.

What else do you want them to do? Should we call for a sick-out? American Airlines pilots did that and American Airlines won a lawsuit costing the APA millions of dollars in damages (actually, it ended up being used as a concession in their next contract - I think).
I think it was a few years ago that Northwest Airlines was successful in getting search warrants to look at employees computers to see if they conspired to start an illegal work action (isn't that what it's called?).

The process is just made more difficult and frustrating by a management which seems to enjoy dragging out the greivance process. They seem to enjoy the confrontation. As I have said in my previous post - unless you have worked here, you just do not understand the adversarial atmosphere created by management.

I was sitting at KBIL - Billings, Montana the other day and looking at a beautiful Horizon Q400 and just wondering what it would be like to work for a comany that gets it. Those guys (the management) get it. Our management does not. THAT is the difference.

 

[SEFlyer]

Just to clear things up, Freedom will be run by ALPA MAG pilots. the only way they can hire off the street, is by first running a standing bid for anyone who wants to bid 1900 PHX FO/CA, and then running a new hire class to fill the additional slots, or they can Junior Assign current excess to PHX. Either way, this Freedom will be a union shop with a bad reputation...

There is a grievance currently filed regarding the way they are advertising the positions.

 

[stuart716]

you guys are real quick to bash mesa, so why dont you tell us who you guys work for so we all know what a perfect airline or 135 op you work for. im sure your airline has never had any sort of problems with management.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

I keep hearing this over and over about Mesa's "weak union".

CitationLover - I would not say that we have a "weak union". From what I understand this is the way all labor contracts work. A contract is signed (hopefully the intent of each section is clearly spelled out), and each party has their own interpretation of the meaning of the contract. If labor does not like management's interpretation then labor has the right to file a grievance. That is the process. It is not Mesa ALPA's weakness.

What else do you want them to do? Should we call for a sick-out? American Airlines pilots did that and American Airlines won a lawsuit costing the APA millions of dollars in damages (actually, it ended up being used as a concession in their next contract - I think).
I think it was a few years ago that Northwest Airlines was successful in getting search warrants to look at employees computers to see if they conspired to start an illegal work action (isn't that what it's called?).

The process is just made more difficult and frustrating by a management which seems to enjoy dragging out the greivance process. They seem to enjoy the confrontation. As I have said in my previous post - unless you have worked here, you just do not understand the adversarial atmosphere created by management.

I was sitting at KBIL - Billings, Montana the other day and looking at a beautiful Horizon Q400 and just wondering what it would be like to work for a comany that gets it. Those guys (the management) get it. Our management does not. THAT is the difference.

Perhaps if you were to develop a spine there would less of a Mesa Bash Fest in progress. Wasn't the Jets4Jobs at USAirways engineered in part by your MEC and not Mesa management?

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

that's a good question...

We think our spines are just fine, thanks. Thanks for "caring". It's nice to see such concern from an experienced professional as yourself. Makes me feel all warm inside. Oh, I forgot tingly...warm and tingly inside.


I don't remember if Jets4Jobs was Mesa ALPAs or management's idea. I thought it was USAirways union and/or USAirways management's idea. Then presented to our management and the union leadership was convinced to go along. Please, correct me if I am wrong. (I tried to look this up on the Mesa ALPA web-site, but it seems that ALPA's web-site is in the middle of an upgrade of some sort.)

In my opinion there was nothing wrong with Jets4Jobs. We grew and added more flying opportunities for Mesa pilots as well as brought on board some USAirways guys in need of a job. If we did not agree to it the flying would have gone to some other company. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. Perfect situation - no, but an example of spineless-ness, hardly.

This past year, JO offered to let us have the "privilege" of flying 737's for our 900 rates + 20%. That was just for captains. FOs would make some ungodly and ridiculously low rate - can't remember. I was proud that our guys and our union said "no thanks" or "shove it" to the offer. We are more interested in Mesa honoring the current contract first, and then when that time comes we will be glad to sit down and officially negotiate 737 pay rates. So we are not spineless, and we are not you. We are not ComAir, Horizon, SkyWest, etc. We have a different history, a different set of circumstances, a different attitude from our management and for you to call us spineless just shows your ignorance.

 

[Crossky]

Well, well, can you hear me playing my thumb and finger violin of sympathy? Actually thanks for the information, I know a few more facts about your situation.

I would like to split the details with you, but it's not worth my time right now. Thanks, but I don't need the lecture on when and why you can strike. I'm not that ignorant, but I didn't previously do a study on the latest infamous history of MESA. It's easy to hear it from others and go from there, I hope you can understand. IMO you're still the black sheep of the family.

I've seen the white and purple Dash 8 as UAX in DEN for over a year now. Everyone has seen the white CRJ's. I heard Mesa showed up once at DEN as Frontier Jet Express in a Am West express paint job. Get enough airplanes to cover all your carriers please. I've seen you taxi at ORD, clueless. I heard that Mesa rejected a takeoff clearance in position after a ground delay at Dulles because the crew realized only one engine was turning. I heard Mesa has lots of pilots timing out again this Nov, this happens every year doesn't it?

I do admit I have some bias, being a pilot for Air Wisconsin. But Mesa still sucks.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

This past year, JO offered to let us have the "privilege" of flying 737's for our 900 rates + 20%. That was just for captains. FOs would make some ungodly and ridiculously low rate - can't remember. I was proud that our guys and our union said "no thanks" or "shove it" to the offer. We are more interested in Mesa honoring the current contract first, and then when that time comes we will be glad to sit down and officially negotiate 737 pay rates.

And do you really think that you'd have turned down 737 flying at RJ rates if people didn't give you guys so much sh!t about the original Freedom debacle? I think that if nobody had given you sh!t the first time, you'd have taken those 73's without even flinching. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.

 

[CitationLover]

And do you really think that you'd have turned down 737 flying at RJ rates if people didn't give you guys so much sh!t about the original Freedom debacle? I think that if nobody had given you sh!t the first time, you'd have taken those 73's without even flinching. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.

now you're taking credit for OUR actions? you really are a DirK.

crossky, what the f@#$ do you want from mesa? i hope one day JO buys air wisonsin so you can feel the sh!t stain up close. its easy to throw stones from high places.

cardinals in '04

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'd never take credit for anything you bozo's have done.

 

[Av8rPHX]

A lil side note... as of this week N906FJ is the only remaining Freedom aircraft. Based on what I heard, the plane will be reconfigured in the coming weeks to an 86 seat config, so I would imagine the B1900 Freedom thing would happen fairly soon after that. I wonder if they will put 1 first class seat in the F8 Beech?

 

[stuart716]

i dont think we would have taken the 737's at the rates the company was offering no matter what. you guys that dont work in the he!! hole called mesa have no idea what we go through on a daily basis. even if the company offered industry average i dont think we would have done just because of the way we are treated.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Speaking of spine....

Did Comair give you one when you PFT'D? Or did you have to go somewhere else to buy one? Or perhaps a loner? BTW You don't seem to have much problem flying former Delta Mainliner routes in you RJ's. Pft plus Replacement Jet equals pious pontificator of the airline industry???? NOT!!! RJ's have put more mainline pilots out of a job than Mesa, JO or 9-11......Dufus......

 

[Crossky]

crossky, what the f@#$ do you want from mesa? i hope one day JO buys air wisonsin so you can feel the sh!t stain up close. its easy to throw stones from high places.

cardinals in '04

I want what other pilots at our company want, our flying back, and a stop to the lowering of our standards of living. But I don't live in Denver, you should talk to some of our pilots who do, they're not as nice as I am.

I'd like to blame SkyWest for our loss of the Denver CRJ Dom. too, but their management seems to care about them a little bit, their planes are clean, their pilots never time out, and their FA's are attractive.

Tell JO to come on up to Appleton, but to bring a coat. It's fall, starting to get chilly, he might get the cold shoulder from our privately held company management.

My CRJ seat sits no higher than yours buddy. I left Great Lakes in 2002, where they then and still now make $3 less per hour than you in the 1900. You know it's bad when you work at a company where if Mesa bought you that would be a good thing.

Truce. It's not worth my whining anymore.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Speaking of SkyWest........

They are flying EMB120's poached from another airline who felt JO's rath, WestAir. At least they could change the YV tail numbers......BTW Croskky I have seen some stupid AWAC stuff in DEN, (landing without a clearence) make sure you PERFECT before slinging BS. PS Did the AWAC guys "hold the line" against paycuts? Did they do what they wanted everyone else to do? Fight the backward trend in pay for RJ drivers? NO........Don't ask others to do what you won't do for yourselves......

 

[DirkkDiggler]

PS Did the AWAC guys "hold the line" against paycuts? Did they do what they wanted everyone else to do? Fight the backward trend in pay for RJ drivers? NO........Don't ask others to do what you won't do for yourselves......

Hey fukknut, even with out current contract that's a result of concessions given 2 years ago, we're paid more than most of the RJ operators out there, and let's not even get into the details of how much better our contract is than yours. We don't want to publicly embarrass you any more than necessary. And by the way, we had to take the paycuts when United went bankrupt so you fukkstains wouldn't steal our contracts away with your embarrassingly low pay.

 

[mightybeechdrvr]

Freedom Again!

The straight "scoop" on the Freedom 1900 garbage is:

1. Mesa is wanting 4 Captains and 4 First Officers to man the new "Freedom" Airlines.

2. One Air Midwest 1900 will be transferred to the Freedom certificate as soon as the books are approved by the Feds.

3. Crews will be taken from Air Midwest, as they are currently qualified in the aircraft and would only require a very short training/transition. These pilots are all ALPA members and will be covered under the collective bargaining agreement.

4. This is being done to keep the Freedom certificate alive when the last three 900's are transferred to Mesa shortly.

5. The crews will sit "hot reserve" in PHX, with no scheduled flying. They will simple fill in whenever a Dash 8 breaks down.

6. The reserve in PHX is currently being done by Air Midwest crews based in FMN, so those duties will be lost to the FMN crews.

7. The pilots will perform all the 'proving runs" for the certificate, so all Captains will be made IOE/Line Check Airmen.

8. Appears to be no opportunity for advancement once you get there. No upgrades.

9. Little or no flying to speak of.....just sitting reserve.

10. If you just want to sit around PHX, might be worth looking at.

11. Who knows what the "Freedom" stigma will be. I know that I would not want to stroll into Southwest or Cactus with a Freedom training record (even if it is ALPA approved". I know that a lot of friends at both airlines don't even bother to look at the list anymore.....if your badge or records say "freedom", they "round file" your paperwork or deny jumpseat priveleges. All in All......I wouldn't risk having that name attached to my file if I had any hope of going elsewhere!

Folks....To make a long story very short....I wish that d*&$^%ed F8 certificate would become just an unpleasant memory as much as the rest of the profession. It has become an embarassment to our company and a constant reminder of the Freedom pilots who betrayed themselves, their fellow pilots, and their entire profession by "selling out". It represents nothing but endless betrayal and "slimy" labor practices. As long as that certificate remains alive, there is always a chance that J.O. will try to use it against the Mesa pilots in some unforseen way. (Mesa 737's ring a bell, anyone?)

Hope this helps to "enlighten".

 

[islandhopper]

A lil side note... as of this week N906FJ is the only remaining Freedom aircraft. Based on what I heard, the plane will be reconfigured in the coming weeks to an 86 seat config, so I would imagine the B1900 Freedom thing would happen fairly soon after that. I wonder if they will put 1 first class seat in the F8 Beech?

The seat by the door ALWAYS WAS first class! Dorks! The only way to fly to Farmington!

 

[islandhopper]

And do you really think that you'd have turned down 737 flying at RJ rates if people didn't give you guys so much sh!t about the original Freedom debacle? I think that if nobody had given you sh!t the first time, you'd have taken those 73's without even flinching. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.

When your quite done marveling over yourself be quite assured the current cadre of mesa pilots dont give a rats ass what you post on these boards. They turned down 737 flying for their own reasons, not because you and a few other mesa bashers rant and rave through all hours of the day on these web boards.

Most of them weren't even there for Freedumb, or CC Air, or Desert Scum, or West Air. Etc.. Peer preesure from me and the clipper maybe, from you? I LOL.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Keep dreaming Islandhopper. It must be the only thing that keeps you going.

 

[islandhopper]

Keep dreaming Islandhopper. It must be the only thing that keeps you going.

thats the best you can do? Cant I at least get a fukkstik out of ya?

 

[DirkkDiggler]

fukkstain!

 

[ChinaClipper]

Dirk

That stuff you get congeeled in your head from starring all those Gay Porn movies has left you a bit slow. I fly for Frontier and AWAC DIDN'T HOLD SH!T for the "profession." They, and a cast of thousands, asked Mesa to do what they won't do for themselves.....fall on a sword. No one offered ANYTHING if it all blew up. No preferential hiring, no strike prep help. NOTHING! Did it ever occur too you that AWAC is responsable for REPLACING MAINLINE FLYING!!!! UNDERCUTTING the "profession" you claim to uphold?? I guess you guys putting Mainline guys on the street is OK, but when it may happen too you, ya get your rainbow condom in a twist. AWAC management played you like a sorority girl who likes shiny things....Stupid and a sure bet. Dufus........BTW What do you call Dirk on the set of his latest G ay porn if his nose is runny???? FULL!!!!!!!

 

[DirkkDiggler]

And the blame game continues.

 

[islandhopper]

They, and a cast of thousands, asked Mesa to do what they won't do for themselves.....fall on a sword.

I hate mesa as much as any disgruntled ex-employee but as always the clipper is tits on the truth..!

I am Island Hopper and I approved this message.

 

[Crossky]

......BTW Croskky I have seen some stupid AWAC stuff in DEN, (landing without a clearence) make sure you PERFECT before slinging BS. PS Did the AWAC guys "hold the line" against paycuts? Did they do what they wanted everyone else to do? Fight the backward trend in pay for RJ drivers? NO........Don't ask others to do what you won't do for yourselves......

OH MY LORD! They must've been an ORD crew, everyone knows DEN ATC is so anal they deserved it anyway. That's trivial.

I never purported that AWAC was perfect, I stated that MESA still sucks. Don't try to bluff your A$$ to everyone on this board that MESA had nothing to do with UAL in bankruptcy coming to us for concessions. Furthermore, everyone knows that you can't sustain rates like $199/hr for a ten year UAL CA. UA pilots got greedy (one of many reasons for UAL BK) and MESA and it's pilot group was only too happy to hoar themselves out to United.

We'll talk civily when your pilot group have a real contract and aren't ashamed to see your CEO J.O.'s quotes lambasting you in the newspapers. Respect is earned, not given.

 

[jetfueljunkey]

Once again, Mesa sets the bar another notch lower in our profession.

FUH-Q biatch....

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Oh boy,
All this talk of unity has me warm and fuzzy, NOT! The only thing that the pilot community has in common is the willingness to skrew one another asap, for $0.05. Mesa, Air Wis, SKYW, West Air, ACA ect. are all flying routes/city pair that were mainline until recently, and as such have allowed corperations to put mainline pilots on the street or into the cheap seats of their RJ's. Your willingness to advance/upgrade based upon this "growth" is going to cost you more than your short sighted vision could imagine. Quick get that 1000PIC so you can apply....where? I blame regional pilots equally with mainline pilots, mainline pilots forgot regionals during contract talks, and regional pilots ignored mainline pilots during furloughs/shrinking all is a result of a lack of unity. Divide and conquer, mainline vs regional, regional vs regional just keep infighting while managment just laughs. Remember politicians aren't worried they can always get "poor people to kill each other", managment has just taken a page from the same book. Keep fighting each other and save managment the trouble.
Remember the function of managment is to get the most work for the least amount of money, and the function of labor is to get the most money for the least amount of work. Also take note, managment has slashed wages like Freddy Kreuger in a haunted house, and we as a group have held out our wallets like sacrifical lambs. Now do not forget get to get that 1000PIC in the BE1900 so you can apply to?
AHHHH FORGEDDIT
You never will
PBR