Freedom's Baaaaack!

[SEFlyer]

cadillac,

there are plenty, most, mesa pilots who hate this company and hate this contract. on top of that we have to put up with faggity comments made by 135 operators such as yourself. imagine being in hell and reminded of it constantly.

LEARN about the old f@#$ing contract before commenting on our sh!tty new one. It sucked worse and our pay rates were improvements based upon our old sh!tty rates, thus making our current sh!t (minus the ty) rates. proving once again that even the white stuff on bird sh!t is still bird sh!t.

life sucks in MAG-land.

Well said CitationLover, and I hate to air our dirty laundry anywhere but the mesalounge, but where the he!! were TP pay rates in the new contract. The same as they were in the last contract. And do you know who we have to blame?

Well, here they are:

not!

 

[suupah]

Well the problem is that whole supply demand thing. there are so many pilots willing to do this for nothing for the ever elusive future job which they are unknowingly destroying by working for nothing.

But the way i see it, real change is hard come and slow too.

It is in the best interest of everyone in this country to have a stable air transport industry. So i think if we continue to try to get more public awareness of this industry, maybe eventually it will come to some government types attention and maybe they will step in and make some rules.

probably not, but would be nice

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Laugh it up, left-the-seat-up funny-boy......

That's Funny $hit............

I like your AVITAR, but once I show it to your wife/significant-other, you won't be getting any for quite some time.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

cadillac,

there are plenty, most, mesa pilots who hate this company and hate this contract. on top of that we have to put up with faggity comments made by 135 operators such as yourself. imagine being in hell and reminded of it constantly.

LEARN about the old f@#$ing contract before commenting on our sh!tty new one. It sucked worse and our pay rates were improvements based upon our old sh!tty rates, thus making our current sh!t (minus the ty) rates. proving once again that even the white stuff on bird sh!t is still bird sh!t.

life sucks in MAG-land.

Wow, how refreshing! A Mesa pilot who isn't defending their POS contract! Buy that man a beer!

 

[KCSO780]

I like your AVITAR, but once I show it to your wife/significant-other, you won't be getting any for quite some time.

I don't argue with the wife anymore about the toilet seat, I just piss in the sink....

 

[General Lee]

Mesajock,


I know your pay isn't the best at Mesa, and I hope you guys eventually get a raise. You deserve it because you are flying aircraft almost as long as an MD-80. I am not trying to make fun of anyone here, and I think your CR9s are impressive. Let's hope you get a raise during your next contract. (I know I will be getting a hefty pay cut soon---as Rhoid likes to remind me) Good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[islandhopper]

Aw-rite! hey hey now, I am just as quick to bash on mesa as the next guy but this thread has been jacked! I would like to know WTF is happening with the freedom cert. and im not really enjoying the same old "fukkin mesa sux" bs from all the outsiders. If anybody knows how much mesa sux its the pilots working there. They get reminded of it every day and night.

So back to the thread, anybody have any real clue on why they would put a beech on the freedom certificate? I thought they wanted to park all those old planes.

 

[Crossky]

cadillac,

there are plenty, most, mesa pilots who hate this company and hate this contract. on top of that we have to put up with faggity comments made by 135 operators such as yourself. imagine being in hell and reminded of it constantly.

LEARN about the old f@#$ing contract before commenting on our sh!tty new one. It sucked worse and our pay rates were improvements based upon our old sh!tty rates, thus making our current sh!t (minus the ty) rates. proving once again that even the white stuff on bird sh!t is still bird sh!t.

life sucks in MAG-land.

You're saying that in your new contract you got a raise? Hard to believe. Why did your union recommend to vote for the contract in exchange for rapid growth? Your weak union and ALPA should have fought Freedom Airlines in the courts, not made a deal with the devil which made the United BOD, shareholders, bankruptcy accountants, and pilots happy. This is why we pay dues to ALPA, but as we all know they serve the boeing and airbus drivers first (they get more dues from them, ha ha). I've heard that the Mesa pay rates are the same as the Freedom rates were. If this is true you all suck like I think you do.

Out of the goodness of my heart and conscience I'll still let you jumpseat though.

 

[CitationLover]

You're saying that in your new contract you got a raise? Hard to believe. Why did your union recommend to vote for the contract in exchange for rapid growth? Your weak union and ALPA should have fought Freedom Airlines in the courts, not made a deal with the devil which made the United BOD, shareholders, bankruptcy accountants, and pilots happy. This is why we pay dues to ALPA, but as we all know they serve the boeing and airbus drivers first (they get more dues from them, ha ha). I've heard that the Mesa pay rates are the same as the Freedom rates were. If this is true you all suck like I think you do.

Out of the goodness of my heart and conscience I'll still let you jumpseat though.

crossky,

since you are a legal expert, please explain "fighting freedom in the courts"? the union recommended the contract because it significantly RAISED their rates (ie the senior leadership). we have a weak union whose slogan is "go ahead do it and grieve it", however such, your condescending attitude shows you to be a blowhard. there are mvmts to remove the current leadership and all we can do is hope.

jo needs freedom to stay afloat. the faa was warned about this "bargaining" certificate and he must show it to not be one. we have the power here, but alas too many want to goto PHX for a ready reserve slot. SAD. he also wants 250hr san juaners in the rt seat of a 737. he is crazy.

all these mesa trashers, where is the deserved thanks to the pilots for stopping his 737 dreams? you guys love spitting on us from your high perches.....

you're more than welcome to j/s on my 19 seater. please ignore the mel'd vcm (in 100deg heat) and blowers.

 

[scabseeker]

Hey General,
Not paid enough but its faster and goes higher. PS you think Cpt pay is bad FO pay is the same in the CRJ 200, 700 and 900.

Why would you want to fly fast when you get paid block or better? Oh wait you don't get paid that do you. Oh well at least you stopped Freedom air cold...right?

 

[Crossky]

crossky,

since you are a legal expert, please explain "fighting freedom in the courts"? the union recommended the contract because it significantly RAISED their rates (ie the senior leadership). we have a weak union whose slogan is "go ahead do it and grieve it", however such, your condescending attitude shows you to be a blowhard. there are mvmts to remove the current leadership and all we can do is hope.

jo needs freedom to stay afloat. the faa was warned about this "bargaining" certificate and he must show it to not be one. we have the power here, but alas too many want to goto PHX for a ready reserve slot. SAD. he also wants 250hr san juaners in the rt seat of a 737. he is crazy.

QUOTE]

Stop it, I never said that, You're putting words in my mouth. But since you asked, here's it in plain language: Mesa ALPA should have requested and put pressure on ALPA national to put their attorneys (your and our attorneys) to work by filing a multi-million dollar lawsuit against JO and Mesa for railway labor act violations. God know there are enough lawyers available.

Additional things which should have been done:
1. Every pilot file a grievance for violation of the contract by starting an illiegal non-union alter ego carrier - a classic union busting effort by JO. Your old contract did have a non-union / alter ego clause, didn't it?
2. Mesa ALPA and ALPA national should've started a regional and national PR campaign.

Even you admit yourself that Mesa has enough pilot whores ready to fly a freedom PHX 1900 or 737. Justifies the outcome that your pilot group voted yes to an industry lowering contract in exchange for JO to promise to stop Freedom (until now at least). Mesa ALPA and National ALPA should've worked together to stop Freedom through lawsuits and court proceedings.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

this is the kind of ignorance that I was talking about..

Mesa Airlines had scope protection under the previous contract. That is why management created Mesa Air Group - the holding company which then controlled Mesa Airlines and soon purchased CCAir (let the whipsawing begin). There was no Mesa Air Group at the signing of the previous contract and therefore no language preventing Mesa Air Group from starting Freedumb Airlines.

Lawsuits were filed. I don't remember the exact nature of these, but I believe Mesa ALPA tried to make the case that the intent of the previous contract was scope protection, which should apply even though the company structure has changed. The lawsuits were not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, lawsuits take time. Meanwhile Freedumb was taking delivery of all Mesa Air Group's new jets (except maybe some ERJs on the East Coast - don't remember), and would have continued to grow rapidly...or so it was thought. Freedumb would grow and Mesa would die a slow and certain death. Mesa has done it before...they just as easily would have done it again. Remember what happened to West Air? What's that? You say you don't remember a West Air? You should try to get the scoop on that. They pretty much did it to CCAir as well. Although with this contract we were able to save some of the CCAir guys jobs.

ALPA national was very interested and involved. These tactics reminded them of Lorenzo and they did not want JO to succeed with Freedumb. Not sure the lengths to which ALPA national went though.

Why didn't we just strike? Well, you don't just decide you want to strike and then do it. You have to be given permission to strike. (You also have to remember the state of the economy and airline industry and keep that in context.) The thought was that negotiations might drag on for years. That is what happened at West Air, and I believe the CCAir contract talks lasted quite some time also, and mangagement was slowly but surely killing CCAir. For those of us based in PHX we could see that the America West pilots contract talks lasted several years. The thought of having the talks drag on and on...and seeing Freedumb growing while Mesa shrinks...CCAir would have been long gone...the situation did not appear to be very pleasant.

Heard enough? I am sick of telling the story. But, as I said there is so much ignorance out there and people are too quick to judge. Guys that work at companies like SkyWest ,Horizon and others don't know the situation here. Their managements get it. Their managements know how to treat employees well and run a great airline. Mesa Air Group doesn't give a rats a$$. They just don't care. As long as the code-share partners are happy and they can add to their Harley Davidson collection, they are satisfied.

As for the Freedumb certificate - one BE-1900 will be placed on the certificate within a week or two. JO probably wants to keep this certificate alive as part of a contigency plan should US Airways go under. I was surprised to hear about the ad for new hires for this Freedumb 1900. Regardless of who flys this aircraft, the pilots will all be from or placed on the Mesa seniority list.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

re: Mesa's "weak union"

I keep hearing this over and over about Mesa's "weak union".

CitationLover - I would not say that we have a "weak union". From what I understand this is the way all labor contracts work. A contract is signed (hopefully the intent of each section is clearly spelled out), and each party has their own interpretation of the meaning of the contract. If labor does not like management's interpretation then labor has the right to file a grievance. That is the process. It is not Mesa ALPA's weakness.

What else do you want them to do? Should we call for a sick-out? American Airlines pilots did that and American Airlines won a lawsuit costing the APA millions of dollars in damages (actually, it ended up being used as a concession in their next contract - I think).
I think it was a few years ago that Northwest Airlines was successful in getting search warrants to look at employees computers to see if they conspired to start an illegal work action (isn't that what it's called?).

The process is just made more difficult and frustrating by a management which seems to enjoy dragging out the greivance process. They seem to enjoy the confrontation. As I have said in my previous post - unless you have worked here, you just do not understand the adversarial atmosphere created by management.

I was sitting at KBIL - Billings, Montana the other day and looking at a beautiful Horizon Q400 and just wondering what it would be like to work for a comany that gets it. Those guys (the management) get it. Our management does not. THAT is the difference.

 

[SEFlyer]

Just to clear things up, Freedom will be run by ALPA MAG pilots. the only way they can hire off the street, is by first running a standing bid for anyone who wants to bid 1900 PHX FO/CA, and then running a new hire class to fill the additional slots, or they can Junior Assign current excess to PHX. Either way, this Freedom will be a union shop with a bad reputation...

There is a grievance currently filed regarding the way they are advertising the positions.

 

[stuart716]

you guys are real quick to bash mesa, so why dont you tell us who you guys work for so we all know what a perfect airline or 135 op you work for. im sure your airline has never had any sort of problems with management.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

I keep hearing this over and over about Mesa's "weak union".

CitationLover - I would not say that we have a "weak union". From what I understand this is the way all labor contracts work. A contract is signed (hopefully the intent of each section is clearly spelled out), and each party has their own interpretation of the meaning of the contract. If labor does not like management's interpretation then labor has the right to file a grievance. That is the process. It is not Mesa ALPA's weakness.

What else do you want them to do? Should we call for a sick-out? American Airlines pilots did that and American Airlines won a lawsuit costing the APA millions of dollars in damages (actually, it ended up being used as a concession in their next contract - I think).
I think it was a few years ago that Northwest Airlines was successful in getting search warrants to look at employees computers to see if they conspired to start an illegal work action (isn't that what it's called?).

The process is just made more difficult and frustrating by a management which seems to enjoy dragging out the greivance process. They seem to enjoy the confrontation. As I have said in my previous post - unless you have worked here, you just do not understand the adversarial atmosphere created by management.

I was sitting at KBIL - Billings, Montana the other day and looking at a beautiful Horizon Q400 and just wondering what it would be like to work for a comany that gets it. Those guys (the management) get it. Our management does not. THAT is the difference.

Perhaps if you were to develop a spine there would less of a Mesa Bash Fest in progress. Wasn't the Jets4Jobs at USAirways engineered in part by your MEC and not Mesa management?

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

that's a good question...

We think our spines are just fine, thanks. Thanks for "caring". It's nice to see such concern from an experienced professional as yourself. Makes me feel all warm inside. Oh, I forgot tingly...warm and tingly inside.


I don't remember if Jets4Jobs was Mesa ALPAs or management's idea. I thought it was USAirways union and/or USAirways management's idea. Then presented to our management and the union leadership was convinced to go along. Please, correct me if I am wrong. (I tried to look this up on the Mesa ALPA web-site, but it seems that ALPA's web-site is in the middle of an upgrade of some sort.)

In my opinion there was nothing wrong with Jets4Jobs. We grew and added more flying opportunities for Mesa pilots as well as brought on board some USAirways guys in need of a job. If we did not agree to it the flying would have gone to some other company. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. Perfect situation - no, but an example of spineless-ness, hardly.

This past year, JO offered to let us have the "privilege" of flying 737's for our 900 rates + 20%. That was just for captains. FOs would make some ungodly and ridiculously low rate - can't remember. I was proud that our guys and our union said "no thanks" or "shove it" to the offer. We are more interested in Mesa honoring the current contract first, and then when that time comes we will be glad to sit down and officially negotiate 737 pay rates. So we are not spineless, and we are not you. We are not ComAir, Horizon, SkyWest, etc. We have a different history, a different set of circumstances, a different attitude from our management and for you to call us spineless just shows your ignorance.

 

[Crossky]

Well, well, can you hear me playing my thumb and finger violin of sympathy? Actually thanks for the information, I know a few more facts about your situation.

I would like to split the details with you, but it's not worth my time right now. Thanks, but I don't need the lecture on when and why you can strike. I'm not that ignorant, but I didn't previously do a study on the latest infamous history of MESA. It's easy to hear it from others and go from there, I hope you can understand. IMO you're still the black sheep of the family.

I've seen the white and purple Dash 8 as UAX in DEN for over a year now. Everyone has seen the white CRJ's. I heard Mesa showed up once at DEN as Frontier Jet Express in a Am West express paint job. Get enough airplanes to cover all your carriers please. I've seen you taxi at ORD, clueless. I heard that Mesa rejected a takeoff clearance in position after a ground delay at Dulles because the crew realized only one engine was turning. I heard Mesa has lots of pilots timing out again this Nov, this happens every year doesn't it?

I do admit I have some bias, being a pilot for Air Wisconsin. But Mesa still sucks.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

This past year, JO offered to let us have the "privilege" of flying 737's for our 900 rates + 20%. That was just for captains. FOs would make some ungodly and ridiculously low rate - can't remember. I was proud that our guys and our union said "no thanks" or "shove it" to the offer. We are more interested in Mesa honoring the current contract first, and then when that time comes we will be glad to sit down and officially negotiate 737 pay rates.

And do you really think that you'd have turned down 737 flying at RJ rates if people didn't give you guys so much sh!t about the original Freedom debacle? I think that if nobody had given you sh!t the first time, you'd have taken those 73's without even flinching. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.

 

[CitationLover]

And do you really think that you'd have turned down 737 flying at RJ rates if people didn't give you guys so much sh!t about the original Freedom debacle? I think that if nobody had given you sh!t the first time, you'd have taken those 73's without even flinching. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.

now you're taking credit for OUR actions? you really are a DirK.

crossky, what the f@#$ do you want from mesa? i hope one day JO buys air wisonsin so you can feel the sh!t stain up close. its easy to throw stones from high places.

cardinals in '04